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Please help me make a good decision
Old 1st August 2005
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Please help me make a good decision

Hi!

I am new to this forum, I thought I have to try this forum, in case it shows out to be good! I posted this question at another board (another site) but I really didn't get any informative answer.

The thing is that for half a year ago I setup a home studio. The aim was to produce the best possible sound quality, I was really looking for that professional sound! After reading a lot of reviews, many pro based reviews I decided the RME Fireface 800 would be the audio interface to choose, partly because of the pretty low price in comparison. The aim was not get a cheap audio interface, the aim was to get the best sounding audio interface, if it had 8 inputs and outputs it was a plus. After this the road has been bumpy. To tell you the truth I haven't once been satisfied with the sound of the mixes when listened in ordinary speakers. It's hard to describe what the sounds feels like, but it's like plastic and within this plastic I don't hear sounds clearly. It doesn't matter if I mix wet or run completely dry, it still sounds like plastic and muddy. I run a professional Yamaha Tyros keyboard through an analog Mackie 1604 VLZ-PRO mixer (with premium grade mic pre amps, don't know if that's true though) in it and I can assure you that the Tyros keyboard is better sounding than most of the keyboards and synths out there!

After tweaking now for a couple of months I am soon giving up with the Fireface 800. It seems to be an excellent peace of technical achievment for the price, but the AD converter in it doesn't really make me go "wow, this is detailed and pristine". I want a transparent AD converter, high in dynamics, able to produce bright, clear, loud, wide sound with much low end and high end, you know a convertert that makes you go: "now this is what a AD converter should sound like" instead of "I just can't get rid of that plastic sound with all that mud inside it"

I have been thinking about stepping up to an Apogee Rosetta 200, mainly because the unit seems to have some useful features and because Apogee is famous for good converters (+ they use Apogee in Sound Kitchen Studios). The price tag is also pretty suitable for me. Would I make the right decision? Any converter that is actually even better sounding than the Rosetta 200? (based on own experiences)

Please help me finding what I'm looking for!
Old 1st August 2005
  #2


Have you tried recording staight into the RME with out the mixer and mixing in the box?

Have you considered a different monitoring set-up while mixing?

I'd be reluctant to go out and buy expensive converters without trying a different signal chain first. The other thing that scares me a little is part about listening to your mixes in "ordinary speakers". What are you using to monitor while mixing?

Do you get the plastic mud sound when putting your keyboard straight into the auxilary inputs of the amp driving the ordinary speakers?



-tINY

Old 2nd August 2005
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY


Have you tried recording staight into the RME with out the mixer and mixing in the box?

Have you considered a different monitoring set-up while mixing?

I'd be reluctant to go out and buy expensive converters without trying a different signal chain first. The other thing that scares me a little is part about listening to your mixes in "ordinary speakers". What are you using to monitor while mixing?

Do you get the plastic mud sound when putting your keyboard straight into the auxilary inputs of the amp driving the ordinary speakers?
-tINY

The keyboard is going directly from the keyboards main stereo outputs to the audio mixer and from there to the audio interface via sub groups. Yes I have tried go directly to exclude the possibility that the mixer is adding noise in the signal path. I couldn't hear any difference... (and I've got sensitive ears) This has been tested carefully too by comparing CD material recorded through the mixer, the mixer was completely transparent, with the wav representation of the original. I couldn't hear any difference in either the monitors or the head phones. The Mackie 1604 VLZ-PRO is a very transparent and clean sounding mixer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY
Have you considered a different monitoring set-up while mixing?
I have thought about whether the placement of the monitors are causing it.They are rather high up on the wall when I mix, but I always stand up and move in the room, sometimes close to the walls to see what bass frequencies are recorded.
The monitors are Mackie HR824 studio monitors. I also have a pro quality surround sound system with subwoofer that can be added to the mix by a press of a button, I don't usually do that during mixing because I want to hear the mix as clean as possible when I mix, but sometimes I do it to get an idea of what it sounds like in an ordinary player during the mastering process(I have a home studio u know). The "speakers" I was mentioning is different kinds of computer speakers where I play what I've recorded, well representing a "common speaker setup with some cheaper quality". All CDs and MP3s I play through these sounds excellent, but when I play something I've recorded myself it sounds like round plastic bass with low contour and inside this there is just noise because the plastic coming from the bass frequencies seem to shadow what's within the mix. Phasing issue? It's something strange with the bass. The dynamic range is pretty low on the mixes and the amplitude too. I've analysed the dry frequencies with a PAZ analyzer and the AD converter seem to be rather dark sounding with a little hard edge over it when the EQ is reset everywhere. The EQ curve is diminshing linear towards 18 kHz from about 1000 Hz (maybe 20 degress), before that there are just some added bass frequencies, not so much but maybe 1 dBFS... I usually have to turn up the higher frequencies to compensate for this. I like to keep the bass frequencies because for instance the piano sound becomes much deeper and more alive, else it sounds brittle and awful. I usually compare my mixes with my favorite albums to get about the same color.

The strange thing is though that in the studio it sounds pretty beautiful. I don't hear any of this plastic mud there. I've been thinking that maybe I'm compressing the mixes too little, resulting in a rather stereo wide picture with too much dynamics and phasing, would that cause a feeling of plastic on the contour of the bass part of the mix? The bass guitar sound is pretty dark and soft. I don't use any compression on the main stereo outputs during mastering. I kind of like it as transparent as possible with small adjustments and good dithering, but maybe this is a huge mistake? Should I add a multiband compressor and try compress much more?

Maybe I'm doing a basic thing wrong here? One think that struck me was that could this be caused by low frequency tracks recorded in stereo? I record every instrument in stereo. Maybe it's just a phasing issue? Maybe I just need to put the bass track as mono and lower the frequencies on the electric piano and change to inverted phasing? I noticed there is a tremolo/vibrato effect there too, maybe that's the problem. I'm sure you will recognise the problem well...

Here is a sample that describes the mud really well:
http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Me...11867_proj.mp3

Mud,mud,mud!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #4
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

The apogees ain't gonna help you dude! I have clients who get in their heads that "it's got to be the converter", but it almost never is. Converters are important, but I think there are more basic things that need to be addressed first..

I think there is a few things going on here...

1. Experience. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you may need to brush up on the skills before investing more money and being further disappointed.

2. Proper use of EQ and compression. I had a hard time hearing the mud in the mix through my G5 speaker, but a good EQ (even a plugin), can help you take out those unwanted frequencies. Instead of turning up the high frequencies, using subtractive eqing and cutting the faulty frequencies will produce much better results.

3. I'd be interested to see if using a good DI would improve your keyboards sound as well. But, this isn't a major problem. It will improve your sound though. Especially after you have gotten a better grasp on mixing.

Good Luck!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #5
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

oddly enough i don't think this is what you want to hear, but... that mix is fine. it's not muddy, there's plenty of sparkle... you're doing a great job.

do yourself a favor, spend $75 or so and get your song mastered by a real mastering engineer, someone who uses analog gear and does nothing but mastering. our own brian lucey is one such person, there are others here as well.

pro mastering will ensure that the way you hear it in the studio will translate to the vast majority of playback systems out there; it will bring your levels up to be reasonably competitive, all the freqs will be as balanced as possible, and things will be glued just a tad more.

the kick in your mix is distorting, maybe the mackie is out of headroom?


gregoire
del ubik
Old 2nd August 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Thank you all for helping and replying. Hmm, interesting, quite different opinions there, one saying it's me that is the problem not the converter and the other one saying it's fine. BTW, yeah I know about that clipping on the kick drum, but that was only a small demo sample I once recorded to have something to learn with so I didn't do anything about it, it was so little clipping. I was using a plugin without a clip indicator and noticed I had left a little too much of an effect on so it was clipping a little. I think it was a compressor on the kick drum that caused the clip to happen.

I was posting some clips to a professional studio engineer (over 15 years in the business) to listen and try solve my dilemma and he said he had heard much professionally made music that was not any more clear, he said it was pleasant but wanted to help sort out my dilemma whatever it was. But he was more into the analog side of things. I can post those two clips here:

Dry mix (100% amplitude on all tracks, no panpot used)
http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Me...11886_proj.mp3

Wet mix (no panpot used)
http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Me...11920_proj.mp3

The brigthness/wideness I'm talking about and would like to get is like this:
http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Me...11889_proj.mp3

I can of course open up the mixes above, in the mid register, the thing is though that the sound characteristics I don't like are still there. I do think it is partly an EQ and phasing/cancellation issue, but I've got the feeling that it is even more related with the converter's "natural sound". A converter with more low end and high end naturally would add dynamics and a little more air into the mix in a very transparent way. This would cause the plasticness to dissapear a little. It would still have that typical transparent digital hardness to it that would have to be warmed up in the mastering. It would create a little more lush/detailed sound over the whole frequency range.

I don't think the difference would be that huge, but it would be noticable enough to feel that it is a little more lush. Except for this I think a part of this problem is also because I'm failing with the mastering process, since it sounds good in my Mackie monitors (really good!) and bad in cheaper speakers, so you might very well be right about that. I don't have the tools or knowledge for that, especially not when it comes to optimizing it for speakers in the commercial sphere.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #7
I had a thought...

If you use a keyboard a lot.. does it have a digital output?

Can you buy a digital output for it?

Optical?
SPDIF?
AES?

If it is digital - why go D/A out of the keyboard then - through a low budget console & low budget converters to get it recorded onto your DAW?

Why not get a digital output keyboard? And then connect it DIGITALLY to your recorder = no quality loss.

Would that work for you....??
Old 2nd August 2005
  #8
I can see no Digital output..

That is a shame..

Can you ask Yamaha how to get a digital output from this?

Jules


General
Keyboard 61 Keys (C1 ~ C6) with Touch Response (Initial Touch / After Touch)
Polyphony 128 notes max.
Display Full Color LCD. Contrast and Angle are Adjustable
Languages English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish (Demo & Help User Selectable)
Voices
1149 Preset Voices + 36 Drumkits 403 Voices (393 Normal Voices + 10 Mega) + 10 Organ Flutes + 480 XG Voices + 256 GM2 Voices + 31 Drum Kits + 5 SFX Kits
Mega Voices Steel Guitar, Hi String Guitar, 12 String Guitar, Clean Guitar, Overdrive, Distortion, Acoustic Bass, Finger Bass, Pick Bass, Fretless Bass
Sweet! Voices Oboe, Violin, Harmonica, Mandolin, New Alto Sax, Mute Trumpet, Flugel Horn, Tenor Sax, Clarinet, Trumpet, Flute, Soprano Sax, Trombone, Pan Flute
Live! Voices French Horns, Sax Section, Steel Guitar, Grand Piano, Brass Section, Nylon Guitar, Strings, Gospel Choir
Live! Drums Live! Studio, Live! Standard, Live! Funk, Live! Brush, Live! Percussion
Cool! Voices Clean Guitar, Jazz Guitar, Vintage Electric Guitar, Electric Piano, Jazz Organ
Sound Creator Save to User Drive, Floppy Drive or Opt. HDD – Unlimited *1
Custom Voice Normal Voice: 128 Max. *2, Drum Voice: 10 Max. *3
Organ Flutes 10 User Organ Flutes presets in memory at one time (can be saved in any disk or user location) – Nine Footages using Modeling Technology
Voice Layer Right1, Right2, Right3 (You can layer up to 3 voices at a time)
Voice Split Lower1 (with hold function)
Effects
Reverb 34 Preset + 3 User
Chorus 26 Preset + 3 User
DSP for Styles 183 Preset
DSP Effect for R1 183 Preset + 10 User
DSP Effect for R2 183 Preset + 10 User
DSP Effect for R3 183 Preset + 10 User
DSP Effect for Left 183 Preset + 10 User
DSP for MIC 183 Preset + 10 User
Poly/Mono Yes – Portamento Time is adjustable in Mono Mode
Vocal Harmony 60 Preset + 10 User (3 note polyphony max.)
MIC Effects Noise Gate, Compressor, 3 Band EQ
Harmony/Echo 17 Presets
Master EQ (5 Band) 5 Presets + 2 User
Part EQ (2 Band) 29 Parts (R1, R2, R3, Left, Style x 8, Song x 16, Multi Pads)
Master Compressor
(3 Band) 5 Presets + 5 Users
Touch Response 5 Presets (Off Level adjustable)
Tempo: 5 ~ 500
Transpose -12 ~ 0 ~ 12 (Assignable Keyboard/Song/Master)
Tuning 414.8 ~ 440Hz ~ 466.8
Upper Octave -1, 0 +1
Part Octave -2, -1, 0, +1, +2
Real-time Controllers Pitch Bend Wheel, Modulation Wheel
Auto Accompaniment
Preset Styles 300 Preset Styles in 10 Categories
User Styles Save to User Drive, Floppy Drive or Opt. HDD – Unlimited *1
Disk Direct Yes (Style will play direct from disk – just like the Internal Styles)
Format SFF (Style File Format)
Control SFF (Style File Format) Intro x 3, Fill In x 4, Break x 1, Main Sections x 4, Ending x 3, Fade In/Out, Tap Tempo, Sync Start, Sync Stop, Ritardando
Parts 8 Parts with full mixer control
Fingering Types Single Finger, Multi Finger, Fingered, On Bass, Full Keyboard, AI (Artificial Intelligence) Fingered, AI Full Keyboard
Quick Access Memory
One-Touch Setting 4 per Style – Fully Programmable
Music Finder 1446 Records – Fully Programmable up to 2500 records
Registration Memory 8 Switches Banks + Freeze Function (Save to User Drive, Floppy Drive or Opt. HDD – Unlimited *1)
Multi Pads User Control Pads 1/2/3/4, & Stop (Save to User Drive, Floppy Drive or Opt. HDD – Unlimited *1)
Songs
Disk Direct Disk Direct Playback with Ultra Quick Start function
Selection Six dedicated buttons (user assignable) for Song Locations (FD, HD or User Drive) + Chain, Random and Next
Playback Control SP (Song Position) 1-4 + Loop (Programmable) – Jump to 4 song positions. Loop playback available
Number of Songs Unlimited *1 – Save to User Drive, Floppy Drive or Opt. HDD
Tracks 16
Recording Quick Rec., Multi-track Rec., Step Rec., Chord Step
Capacity Approx. 35,000 Notes
Lyric Lyrics Display (For MIDI files that have lyrics)
Score Zoom in/out, User can select which tracks to display; Note Names, Lyric & Chord Display On/Off
Disk Storage
User Drive 3.3MB – Max. 250 files & folders per folder.
Floppy Disk Drive 3.5" 2HD/2DD – Max. 250 files & folders per folder. Max. 224 Files & Folder in the Root Directory.
Hard Disk Drive Optional 2.5" IDE HD – Internal Max. 250 files & folders per folder. Max. Height 12.7 mm Max. Capacity: approx. 40 GB (Logical size: approx. 137 GB)
**************************************
Connectivity
Video Out NTSC, PAL – User selectable Screen Content (Lyrics only or LCD Contents Mirror)
USB USB Slave x 1 (USB Version 1.1). MIDI x 2, Voice Edit, Storage drive maintenance (copy, paste, rename, move etc.)
MIDI MIDI A In/Out, MIDI B In/Out
Foot Control –
User Function Assignable Foot Pedal 1 Default Sustain / 2 DSP Variation / 3 Volume
# Audio Phones, Line Out Main (L/L+R, R), Sub 1/2
# Loop Send (L/L+R, R), AUX In Loop Return (L/L+R, R), Trim Vol.
# To Sub Woofer L/R, To Left/Right Speaker
# MIC/Line In – Dynamic MIC (Imp. 250 ohm recommended) Trim, Input Volume, Signal/Over Indicator.
Power Supply AC (Inlet)
*************************************
Physical
Dimensions 45.24" x 16.9" x 5.4" W x D x H (1,149 x 428 x 137 mm) Without Music Rest, Speakers & other projections
Weight 27.38 lbs (12.4 kg)
*1 Because the file is saved in the User Drive, Floppy Disk or Hard Drive, the maximum number is limited according to the capacity of the drive and the maximum number of files and folders in a folder.
*2 The number of voices differs according to the selected voice and/or way of editing. For example, if Live! GrandPiano is selected and saved as it is, up to 94 voices can be saved.
*3 The number of voices differs according to the selected voice and/or way of editing. For example, if Live! Standard Kit is selected and saved as it is, up to 10 voices can be saved.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I had a thought...

If you use a keyboard a lot.. does it have a digital output?

Can you buy a digital output for it?

Optical?
SPDIF?
AES?

If it is digital - why go D/A out of the keyboard then - through a low budget console & low budget converters to get it recorded onto your DAW?

Why not get a digital output keyboard? And then connect it DIGITALLY to your recorder = no quality loss.

Would that work for you....??
As a matter of fact I was looking for a such output on my keyboard (Yamaha Tyros) but only the Yamaha Motif Series are equipped with digital outputs. In that way I would have been able to test what the AD really does with the sound.

BTW, I am mixing digitally in my computer, so no D/A is present in the recording chain, only for playback.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #10
The Triton series had avery good reputation for recording..

But that was a few years ago

Those had a digital out

would a Triton be OK for you?
Old 2nd August 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
The Triton series had avery good reputation for recording..

But that was a few years ago

Those had a digital out

would a Triton be OK for you?
I have a Korg Trinity that has an spdif output, but the output is blocked by some metal or something, so maybe it is for those equipped with the hard disk option... BTW, the Korg Trinity is really neat working with in the studio, a large touchsensitive display with a user friendly interface and great editing features.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #12
I think if you are doing a lot with these type of sound sources

You need one with a digital output..

That is the best chance for you to keep the clarity

Then use plug ins inside your DAW to mix & change the sounds a little

But with NO EXTRA CONVERSIONS!

Old 2nd August 2005
  #13
The Motif series (with all the digital cards) looks like it might be good for you.

Does your DAW interface card have digital inputs?

If so what are they?

Jules
Old 2nd August 2005
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I think if you are doing a lot with these type of sound sources

You need one with a digital output..

That is the best chance for you to keep the clarity

Then use plug ins inside your DAW to mix & change the sounds a little

But with NO EXTRA CONVERSIONS!

Aha, maybe that's more important than I've thought...!
Old 2nd August 2005
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
The Motif series (with all the digital cards) looks like it might be good for you.

Does your DAW interface card have digital inputs?

If so what are they?

Jules
It has the following digital inputs and outputs:

Input Digital: 2 x ADAT optical or SPDIF optical, SPDIF coaxial (AES/EBU compatible)
Output Digital: 2 x ADAT optical or SPDIF optical, SPDIF coaxial (AES/EBU compatible)
Old 2nd August 2005
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyCrazyMan
As a matter of fact I was looking for a such output on my keyboard (Yamaha Tyros) but only the Yamaha Motif Series are equipped with digital outputs. In that way I would have been able to test what the AD really does with the sound.

BTW, I am mixing digitally in my computer, so no D/A is present in the recording chain, only for playback.
Do you record the keyboard in your DAW - or is it synced to your DAW & plays back 'live' without ever being recorded?

Or is it like this

Keyboard - analog out into
Mackie Desk to..
Interface - into DAW
Old 2nd August 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
The Motif series (with all the digital cards) looks like it might be good for you.

Does your DAW interface card have digital inputs?

If so what are they?

Jules
The thing is though that I'm wating for the Yamaha Tyros 2 that is coming out in October, November. It will probably have digital outputs and I will probably buy it too.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #18
Lives for gear
 

I run it exactly as you mentioned:

Keyboard - analog out into
Mackie Desk to..
Interface - into DAW

Actually I'm doing it both ways, I have an 8 port MIDI interface that links between the DAW and my keyboards, for all the MIDI work I do, but I do not sync digital clocks.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #19
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PapillonIrl's Avatar
 

I didn't listen to the track, but...

Sounds awfully like a mixing/room issue...you have said that recording a cd through the same chain you record your synths through does not degrade it ?

Where did you get those spec's for the freq response of the FF800's converters ? Sounds suspect to me...I have one and the converters definately won't give you the problems you are describing.

What are you using to mix ? DAW or Mackie ? If DAW, which one ?

If you are mixing on the Mackie, I think most current DAW apps, with decent plugins will beat it on 98% of material. That eq is just horrible.

If you are going to spend money, spend it on getting your rooms analysed, getting a keyboard with digital outs and buying some good books on mixing.

Nathan
Old 2nd August 2005
  #20
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyCrazyMan
The Mackie 1604 VLZ-PRO is a very transparent and clean sounding mixer.
i beg to differ!

--jon
Old 2nd August 2005
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyCrazyMan
The thing is though that I'm wating for the Yamaha Tyros 2 that is coming out in October, November. It will probably have digital outputs and I will probably buy it too.
Good.. then you can skip the cheap desk & cheap converters!!



For your sound - keep it 100% digital!

Old 2nd August 2005
  #22
Lives for gear
 
absrec's Avatar
 

Don't get new converters. Just experiment with different sounds. Play it on as many systems as you can. Compare it to as many recordings that you consider "professional". But brace yourself for the sorrow that will soon set in. I humble myself everyday by listening to Tom Lord Alge and Andy Wallace mixes. It's the only thing that makes me want to get better. The gear isn't the issue. Don't waste your money unless you're like me and gear just makes you happy. heh
Old 2nd August 2005
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by absrec
Don't get new converters. Just experiment with different sounds. Play it on as many systems as you can. Compare it to as many recordings that you consider "professional". But brace yourself for the sorrow that will soon set in. I humble myself everyday by listening to Tom Lord Alge and Andy Wallace mixes. It's the only thing that makes me want to get better. The gear isn't the issue. Don't waste your money unless you're like me and gear just makes you happy. heh
I just realised something, what a ****ing day it has been today.
I am almost not thinking clearly! (the whole evening I have been thinking about quiting my job that sucks)

Anyways, over to some fun stuff! Let's see. You are suggesting that I should not buy another converter. I am not doing any D/A so I don't mix with the analog Mackie mixer. But I want to ask you guys about one thing. It has a low boost switch on evey channel, giving it some additional lows. Might this be part of what's causing the plastic bass to happen? I can't remember now if it is enabled or disabled, but how should I manage these buttons?!

I haven't tested recording a CD track through the AD, I was only testing the DA so that I would be able to know what is possible to get in terms of sound quality and the difference between my sound at that sound was like night and day. It was a much more pristine and full sound on the album. The DA seemed really transparent, I was not able to tell a difference when I run it through the DA. So I am pretty sure that the DA conversion in the RME Fireface 800 is of very high quality! With the AD though I'm not sure. I know that it is quiet and works great. It is also very digital sounding, it has absolutely no warmth in it whatsoever, which should be a good thing, it IS a little hard, that much I can tell by going directly out and by going through the audio interface and out. It is also a little less stereo sounding, but only marginally I would say. With the AD I am suspecting the weak link is in the dynamics department. While it is very transparent and quiet I think there are marginally less dynamics in the mix after the conversion and as far as I know this really makes sense because the chip in it is in fact a little weaker in that area when comparing it with for instance a pro tools hd 192 system or emu 1820M. Is this too much quality loss? I'm not sure, in a larger context it might not be, but if you're out for optimizing what you can, it really IS worth paying attention to. The converter is after all one of the most important parts of the link.

But whether I'm right or wrong I really think you are completely right in telling me to buy a keyboard with digital outputs! Some instruments simple are made for digital recording, I think keyboards are really such instruments. So one potential cause of this "sound" might really be the way I connect the instrument to the mix. Actually I've been thinking about that a lot, I have even thought that micing the keyboard through the great original yamaha speakers would lead to a little brighter sound coming in. That DI box recommendation could also be worth trying out.

So you made me make a decision. The decision was to wait and see what the Yamaha Tyros 2 brings. If I'm lucky it has digital outputs and really good sound, then I would get more for the money than I would get with a rosetta 200.
So I'll wait and see. I really think running completely digitally would be good.

Thanks so much to every one helping me out, especially to you Jules that were writing more replies than I was able to answer.

You rock!
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