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best converter for my protools mixplus Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 22nd April 2003
  #31
Quote:
Originally posted by atticus
Another school of thought would be to sell the Mix plus rig while it's still worth something and go native. I'm sure that there are a ton of Logic users here that would strongly suggest that route. Then you could get whatever converters you wanted, without having to worry about DIGI compatability. But that's just lil' old me.heh
thanks for your suggestion, but...

1. i need knobs, potis, faders for tweaking twiddeling... would you prefer virtual nipples than real ones???

2. i like american sound, they sound completely other than europe sound. they're just fat and warm and that's not because they work with logic and plugins, but with real high end outboard and with headroom (yes i know, i've learned about headroom in this thread ). you may use logic for pure recording as far as you have good converters (the right thread in here ), but i would never use with freedom of conscience for good paying clients plugins from logic or cubase, maybe some gates, lo-/hicuts and special creative plugs.

************

at the moment i'm going more and more in direction to mytek, but if jules will sell me his apogee for a bargain, i'll mix 3 myteks with one apogee...

regards deft:::
Old 1st May 2003
  #32
Gear Addict
 

I'm new to converters. I wish to add an Apogee to my 001.
Would it be better to go with a Big Ben or Rosetta 800?
I really only need 2 channels. I assume there are 'converters' the Big Ben although it is a word clock unit? I am also wondering how the converters in the 800 will compare to the older Rosetta converters? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks,
--james
Old 1st May 2003
  #33
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by gracejames
I'm new to converters. I wish to add an Apogee to my 001.
Would it be better to go with a Big Ben or Rosetta 800?
I really only need 2 channels.
Rosetta 800 is 8 channels so count that one out. Look at the Benchmark stuff on their website, or as we like to say "Ask atticus." He's a Gearslut who works for Benchmark. I'd wait a bit until they come out with their upcoming analog-to-digital converter and try that thing out.
Old 2nd May 2003
  #34
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Thanks for the plug Jax!!heh
Old 31st May 2003
  #35
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Bobalou's Avatar
 

A couple questions for ya fellas!

I use a digi001 and will start tracking drums at home 4 to 8 mics..looking into a couple of options, I have various pre's already. what do you suggest:

1. the new Rosetta 800 A/D D/A around $2600ish

2. the PSX 100 A/D D/A and go with its 2 channels on the overheads only (digi001 on rest of kit) around $2500ish

(does their equal price say something about how much better the PSX 100 is?)

3. The RME ADI 8 A/D D/A 8 channel around $1300ish

4. or the 2 channel Lucid A/D9624 and the D/A9624 for overheads only. both around $1400ish

I guess its clear I'm not sure weither to go with a 2 channels or an 8?

thanks guys
Old 31st May 2003
  #36
Rab
KMR Audio
 
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If it was me, I'd be looking at the whole picture, so the first question would be how good are your existing preamps? If you've nothing particularly exciting and you're looking at around $2500 total, maybe consider the RME ADI8DS and a nice stereo pre (A-Designs MP2, UA2610?)... your existing pre's could control levels for the other 6 inputs. I guess you've seen that link that compares the RME favourably to the AD8000? In any event, you'd do well to completely bypass the Digi001's pre's and convertors.
Old 1st June 2003
  #37
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thanks guys,

i have an RNP/RNC's, orderd a GR ME 1NV and also have an ART Pro MPA and a dbx 376 strip...I plan on upgrading the ART and dbx to maybe a 4 channel pre or another RNP/RNC later on once I get my converters straightened out.

so I'm still not sure if I should go with a two channel A/D D/A for overs and let the digi001 convert the rest of the kit, or go the full eight 48k or 96k to insure upgrading down the road...

thanks
Old 1st June 2003
  #38
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally posted by deft_bonz
i don't see the point where the mackie should alter the sound because i rarely use the gains and eq's.
Funnily enough, I was just talking about Mackie desks to one of the maintainace guys at work. He was slating them on the basis of thier weak power supplies. He was saying, in a nut shell, wether you use the pres and EQ or not, with normal mix levels, on the beat when everything slams, the draw on the power rails is too high and they dip, which then sounds like bad compression. We were half joking about building a really stiff replacement psu and selling it as an upgrade...

He suggested a simpler way to improve things, but it does increace s/n, is mix to -20 or so, then boost it back up with a decent gain stage. Then your not stressing the supply on the peaks.

If you have, or know anyone, who has a Metric Halo 2882 i/o, theres an opportunity to hear just what a difference the power supply can make. Basicaly its a buss-powerable firewire interface. As a consequence, it has two power modes. A normal mode, and a hi-power mode for use with an AC adapter. You can switch the hi-power mode on whilst playing back and the difference is tremendous. The bottom end is so much tighter with much more 'weight'. Essentially youre reducing the distortion as its not flattening the waveform any more as the power sags, so anything near full-scale is cleaner.

FWIW, all the PT rigs at work have Prism ADA8s and they use Prism ad & da in the mastering rooms.

just my 2p,
all the best,
Tom
Old 2nd June 2003
  #39
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by tom_c

He suggested a simpler way to improve things, but it does increace s/n, is mix to -20 or so, then boost it back up with a decent gain stage. Then your not stressing the supply on the peaks.
I've done exactly that and, provided the RFI sensitivity doesn't bite you, it will clean up a Mackie's act dramatically. This is actually true of a lot of low-end gear. Only the highest-end gear doesn't crap out when it's run at +4.
Old 2nd June 2003
  #40
Lives for gear
 
faeflora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by deft_bonz
i'm willing and know that high end gear will last for over 20 year.
high end ANALOG gear will retain value.

Digital stuff including converters will keep getting more and more powerful and your $10K Apogee investment will be worth $5K in 5 years. If you spent that $10K on a GML mixer though it would still be worth $10K in 10 years.
f ADDAC.

If I were you, I would pick up as many channels of RME/MOTU/Panasonic AD conversion as I would use simultaneously. For instance, if you have 32 syth outputs and you only ever record 24 max, then pick up 24 channels of AD. Then figure out how much simultaneous DA you need. Purchase accordingly.

I reccomend this since you said you were doing a lot of MIDI. Keyboards don't require as clean/hi-fi a signal path as live miced stuff does. The ear can hear a crappy converter more easily on a vocal or acoustic guitar than it can on a synth bass or lead or sample. Take the money you saved on conversion and invest it in a good summing bus or pro-control or top quality FX box like Harmonizer or 480L etc.
Old 3rd June 2003
  #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by atticus
Another school of thought would be to sell the Mix plus rig while it's still worth something and go native. I'm sure that there are a ton of Logic users here that would strongly suggest that route. Then you could get whatever converters you wanted, without having to worry about DIGI compatability. But that's just lil' old me.heh
Well, here´s one happy Logic native user.

It feels kinda great that a guy like you suggests that route. I don´t think TDM is neccesary with todays fast computers.

Regards from Sweden,

echorec
Old 3rd June 2003
  #42
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faeflora's Avatar
 

I'd like to mention that I'm an UNhappy Logic user. Logic is AOK for 32 tracks, with 20 plugs, but if you use more, the engine becomes unstable. Logic is really just a GREAT sequencer with cheap sloppy audio capabilities tacked on. You can't even get optinum operating environment configurations from Emagic like you can from Digidesign or Steinberg.

There's still fascists in Germany. I know Digidesign is the same way, but at least you can get support for their product.
Old 3rd June 2003
  #43
Gear Head
 

What machine are you runnign logic on? One thing Ive found is that Logic is allright untill it starts running low on memory. Then it gets very flaky. I found that as I built songs up, it would strat crashing all the time. I added another 512MB and it since its been really stable. Most of my songs have about 64 tracks (including instruments and busses etc...) And 40-50 plug ins. Probably 30-40 concurrent audio/instruments at the most.

Make sure with your memory allocations, youre leaving some free. Logic uses the system memory space for its buffers so if you assign all the spare RAM to logic, it can cause problems.

Im a huge TDM fan though, there are just times when its out of the question for me.

'best
Tom
Old 3rd June 2003
  #44
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converters

While it's true that analog gear will retain it's value, keep in mind that your recordings are only as good as the weakest link in your chain.

There's no reason to use compromised converters when Apogee is turning out better products each day.
Buy converters to make great recordings. If you want to buy stuff for investment purposes, buy
pharmaceutical stocks. With this line of reasoning
you should never buy a computer.
When you build a house, you buy tools for the job.
Some retain their worth while others get improved upon. You still have to build the house. Converters are not an investment, they are tools.
Used properly, they should owe you no money when their time comes.

A great mic through a great mic pre through average converters is going to sound....average.
cheers
Old 4th June 2003
  #45
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Re: converters

Quote:
Originally posted by chap
While it's true that analog gear will retain it's value, keep in mind that your recordings are only as good as the weakest link in your chain.

There's no reason to use compromised converters when Apogee is turning out better products each day.
Buy converters to make great recordings. If you want to buy stuff for investment purposes, buy
pharmaceutical stocks. With this line of reasoning
you should never buy a computer.
When you build a house, you buy tools for the job.
Some retain their worth while others get improved upon. You still have to build the house. Converters are not an investment, they are tools.
Used properly, they should owe you no money when their time comes.

A great mic through a great mic pre through average converters is going to sound....average.
cheers
Firstly, my argument is that modern converters don't make as big a difference as mics, pres, comps etc etc.


---

Hey hey I'm not telling him to make a planned financial investment to make money, I'm telling him to invest his money judiciously to make records.

I hear (literally) that converters are not as much of a weak link as preamps, mics, DIs, mixers, comps etc etc. My friend has a Tascam USB 428 that cost $400. The converters on it are pretty darn good! Compared to my $2900 Mytek converter, they're not as clear or detailed, but they sound DAMN GOOD for the cheap cost! If I compare a Shure KSM 32 to a Soundelux U99 though, the differences will be FAR more audible and noticible to ANY listener.

If I was stuck with Tascam 428 converters and a Soundelux U99, I could make a great sounding record. They're much better than ADAT converters of yore, and don't have the classic ugly thin digital sound. If you stuck me with the Mytek and the Shure mic, my record would surely(ha) not be as compelling.

You don't need Apogee or Prism or DB converters for great sound. Good sound existed before the most recent Crystal Semiconductor chip.

You'll get much better sound if you go buy better mics, pres, and comps, and a few really good DIs for your synths than if you get the top o the line converters.

Converters only change your analog signal into ones and zeroes anyways. You want those ones and zeroes to be as sweet sounding as possible. Your money will get you further towardss sweet sound in other places on your chain.
Old 4th June 2003
  #46
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faeflora's Avatar
 

I said that you should spend your money on other stuff so lemme try to give some specific reccomendations

Quote:
Originally posted by deft_bonz


the most important point you've all said is to have better outboard gear. so my question is: what can i do with them for electronic music. normally all the sounds are already full compressed, pre-equed etc etc?
Do you mean that your synths already compress and eq everything? In my experience, synth compression and eq and fx in general, suck. It's better to do it with dedicated hardware.

Quote:
Originally posted by deft_bonz

recording:
mackie 32-8bus, klein & hummel O198 nearfields, brauner valvet, spl channel one, protools mixplus, sony dat a-9
I'm sorry everyone is poo pooing on your 8 bus. You sure a Control 24 or Pro control or motormix or whatever wouldn't neatly fit in that spot? I agree with them about the Mackification of your sound. Maybe you can get your desk modified?

The brauner and SPL are pretty decent I guess? Mo better mics is always better. I would pick up a good Soundelux and a modern solid state class pre like Great River, GML (my favorite by far), um Crane Song whatever. If you're doing dance I'd get a bright mic.

Quote:
Originally posted by deft_bonz

fx:
spl charisma 8, spl transient designer 4, ensoniq dp4, ensoniq dp2, tc electronic d-two, drawmer ds 201, aphex 104 aural exciter, mam rs3, mam phazer 2, behr**** ultra q, ale*** nanoverb, ale*** nanocompressor (sorry for those guys hitt, these were my early faults tutt) waves gold pack tdm (plugins)
Ok you got a bunch of comps but nothing spectacular. Distressors can beat the feces out of any synth sound. They're also awesome for getting hard kick sounds and plenty more stuff. They're also pretty cheap. Why don't you have one? heh Everyone else does! I'm serious. heh 1176s could also help spank your synths and make them mean. I'd also pick up a "fluffy" compressor that can be more gentle for your vocals or pads like a LA2A or a um Trakker. Oh yes, another fluffy comp is the RNC. It can be sort of spanky but supernice mode is really quite kind.

What's amplifying your synths? You need DIs! Mackamplification is no good! Demeter is the cleanest I've used but Avalon U5 has somewhat useable EQs and Hi pass filters. It makes a real difference, especially if you're doing outboard processing.

Ah yes, to complete your studio you must have a Massive Passive. Again, wonderful on big fat synths chock full of frequencies that aren't condusive to the mix. You know what I'm talking about, the bass patch with enough high end and mid to function as a solo lead or the pad with so much of EVERYTHING that you can only use it to show off or pretend that you're scoring some 70s psychadelic movie? Anyways Massivo excels at tone shaping. Don't get a clean eq for synth. They already have fugly problems.

There, I think I've reccomended 10K(+) of stuff to buy instead of converters.
Old 4th June 2003
  #47
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Re: converters

Quote:
Originally posted by chap

A great mic through a great mic pre through average converters is going to sound....average.
cheers
Hi chap,

I don´t agree. Before I got better converters I recorded a great mic (U48) and a great pre (V77) through both a Gina and a digi001 and the sound was way above average.
Old 4th June 2003
  #48
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chap's Avatar
 

hmmmm

I'm lucky enough to have a great chain. Tons of tube mics, 26 channels of various outboard mic pres
(SLAM!,Vox Box, Requisite PAL, Vipre, Flamingos plus some vintage for people who think it needs to be old to be good) lot's of out board eq's ,compressors to fully utilize the Dangerous 2 Buss.

I also have converters from 5 manufaturers and have used most others.
My first point was that converters are a tool and not an investment. Apogee is about to release several new tools that will devalue other converters (including some of their older models).
That's to be expected.

Another point is that the entire chain is important. Depending on the source, the weight may lean in the direction of the mic or the converter but it's unwise to imagine that the converters are less important. They may be the most important.
Just my 2 cents. Not flaming anyone.
chap
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