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3 mic technique on drums?
Old 25th July 2005
  #1
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3 mic technique on drums?

where can I find the 3 mic technique for recording drums?
thanks
daniel
Old 25th July 2005
  #2
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audioez's Avatar
 

Click the pic for KICK, SNARE, ROOM L and R.
KICK Beta52
SNARE SM57
ROOM L AKG535
ROOM R AKG535

<p><a href="http://ezraudio.com/EZRADRUMSII.mp3"target=blank"><img src="http://www.ezraudio.com/A998III.jpg"align="middle"/></a>
Old 25th July 2005
  #3
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOURTHTUNZ
where can I find the 3 mic technique for recording drums?
thanks
daniel
Measure from the center of the snare. Pan A&B hard left and hard right. Bring C up the center. Use the same type pf mic for A&B. It will give you a perfect stero image of the kit and you can move the mics closer or further to find the right blance. A forward facing omni in front can be nice too.

Old 26th July 2005
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioez
Click the pic for KICK, SNARE, ROOM L and R.
KICK Beta52
SNARE SM57
ROOM L AKG535
ROOM R AKG535

<p><a href="http://ezraudio.com/EZRADRUMSII.mp3"target=blank"><img src="http://www.ezraudio.com/A998III.jpg"align="middle"/></a>
Hey thanks! Sounds nice!
daniel
Old 26th July 2005
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Measure from the center of the snare. Pan A&B hard left and hard right. Bring C up the center. Use the same type pf mic for A&B. It will give you a perfect stero image of the kit and you can move the mics closer or further to find the right blance. A forward facing omni in front can be nice too.

Hey what are your mics and what pattern? Thanks!
daniel
Old 26th July 2005
  #6
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jjblair's Avatar
The OHs are Neumann UM57s in cardioid. In that pic I have a Neumann CMV563 with M7 capsule in front. These days I use an M49 in front. Any LDC should work as OH, and I'm sure you could use an SDC. Just find the pair that sounds right. I'm sure you could even use SM7s or Beyer M160s.
Old 26th July 2005
  #7
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Larrchild's Avatar
 

Q. did andy johns put em this way? and if i add a snare mike for attack will i destroy the time-space continuum?
Thanks in advance,
Lar'
Old 26th July 2005
  #8
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
This actually has some theory behind it; http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

It's filled with great ideas and most importantly, will tell you what to listen for while your placing the mics. I've never gotten it to work for me without help from close mics on the kick and snare, but it's a great read for some starting points.
Old 26th July 2005
  #9
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jjblair's Avatar
I'm not surprised if Andy does it. It's based on Glynn's technique. I always do this with a bunch of close mics on everything, and I always check summing for any phase cancellation against the close mics and move things accordingly or flip the phase.

It works for me without the close mics, but if you want a modern sound with the drums more up front, you might a couple of close mics. However, with the right EQ and compression, you could probably get the triangle to work in almost anything.
Old 26th July 2005
  #10
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kevinc's Avatar
 

I definately throw a close mic on snare at least when I do this sort of thing.
Sometimes hi hat as well just to give it a bit more clarity. Kick sounds fine to me with the mic backed up a bit though.

I`m not sure if I necessarily think it`s more natural sounding to mic things this way or with just 2 overheads etc.... That seems to be the thinking behind it when people go for this technique these days but it`s really just a different vibe and sound as opposed to being more natural. If anything it literally sounds more distant to me because the mics are picking up so much room as well.

I do use a variation of this technique quite a bit and just add in some mics where they`re needed based on the drummers playing style.
Old 26th July 2005
  #11
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Doublehelix's Avatar
 

I really love that "modern" up-front sounding snare, so I have to use a close-mic on the snare at the very minimum.

But what the hell do I know? I just used 11 drum mics on my last session!!!

-snare
-snare bottom
-hats
-kick
-kik outside
-OH L
-OH R
-tom 1
-tom 2
-tom 3
-mono room mic
Old 26th July 2005
  #12
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Inner Light's Avatar
 

I tried this technique for the 1st time over the week-end, and we absolutely loved it. we still ended up putting 2 tom mics, but when i listen to just the over heads , it really rocks.

once again thanks to collective genius pool here at gearslutz
Old 26th July 2005
  #13
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
SF24/Beta 52
Old 26th July 2005
  #14
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS
SF24/Beta 52
Totally.

Just insert the solid drummer who can mix himself through his own playing and a decent room.

You come off as a genious!
Old 26th July 2005
  #15
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rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larrchild
Q. did andy johns put em this way? and if i add a snare mike for attack will i destroy the time-space continuum?
Thanks in advance,
Lar'

andy didn't do that with us. there were lots of mics on the drums. that technique is attributed to glynn johns - andy's brother.

one story goes that one of the overhead stands slipped and the mic ended up peeking over the floor tom. when the assistant offered to raise it back up glynn said "why bother, - it sounds great!" so they left it that way. remember that back then they were summing to mono on the drums, so the distance between one mic and the other didn't much matter.

i use that technique all the time. sometimes either the snare or the kick is offcenter, but i don't care. but i usually add a room mic further away, limited to death. and lately i have added a snare mic so i can process it seperately. it destroys nothing in the "space time continuum", but your desruction may vary heh .

best regards,
rlnyc.
Old 26th July 2005
  #16
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drmmrboy's Avatar
 

JJ, that picture's great! I've seen it on you web site before. What is the kit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs
Just insert the solid drummer who can mix himself through his own playing and a decent room.
I set up like this the other day. My room sucks, but if you play with some dynamics, and a sense of how the balance should be, your cool.

I was playing the kit, as well as playing engineer. So I wasn't paying enough attention to drumming. (either, really) One tune had breaks, where the drums pick up on the toms. Like, dum, dum, dum-dum. I spaced on that, and it sounded like a friggin stampede. I was able to ride the drums a bit, so it's OK.

But, yeah, if you have someone behind the kit who can play, and is aware of what's going on in the tunes..... thumbsup

Andrew
Old 26th July 2005
  #17
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jjblair's Avatar
That is a Frankenstein kit. A '60s Ludwig 22" kick from a double kick set. (No hole on the top.) A 16" '60s Ludwig tom, and a 13" '60s Sonor tom. It wasn't my snare. I think it was a really old Ludwig. Except for my Camco kit, I tend to just buy loose 3 ply Ludwigs whose sound I dig. I think I have two Ludwigs whose colors match. LOL.
Old 27th July 2005
  #18
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioez
Click the pic for KICK, SNARE, ROOM L and R.
KICK Beta52
SNARE SM57
ROOM L AKG535
ROOM R AKG535

<p><a href="http://ezraudio.com/EZRADRUMSII.mp3"target=blank"><img src="http://www.ezraudio.com/A998III.jpg"align="middle"/></a>
It kind of sounds like your room mics are out of phase with your close mics. Where did the lows go?
Old 27th July 2005
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS
SF24/Beta 52

As long as you don't mind sounding retro. I love Zep and the Who, but modern drummers are (nit) picky. They want a very balanced combination of 'air' and tightness/close sounds with specific control of each drums with the capability to (generally) automate each one (no escaping the overheads, volumes are one thing, correct playing is another). I usually do top toms, top snare, one kick, spaced overheads, and ride. Not really a modern overkill technique, but not minimalist either.
Old 27th July 2005
  #20
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
isn't that a bit more than 3 ???????
Old 27th July 2005
  #21
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audioez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka
It kind of sounds like your room mics are out of phase with your close mics. Where did the lows go?
It's subtractive eq...and depending on which way the pair is panned, it will sound out of phase, thanks for the comments golden ears!!!
Old 27th July 2005
  #22
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioez
It's subtractive eq...and depending on which way the pair is panned, it will sound out of phase, thanks for the comments golden ears!!!
Easy, not trying to offend you, just trying to help out. It sounds like your technique could use a little tweaking. It can be tricky to get good low end from the snare and the toms when not using close mics, but it is possible.

This is a two overhead and kick mic deal, no compression or no eq at this point and tracked to 2" 16. Its pretty dark sounding right now, but i am just positing it to illustrate that with golden ears, you can get lots more low end... even without spot mics on the snare (or the toms for that matter.)

http://sfrecording.com/mcidrums.aif
Old 27th July 2005
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Measure from the center of the snare. Pan A&B hard left and hard right. Bring C up the center. Use the same type pf mic for A&B. It will give you a perfect stero image of the kit and you can move the mics closer or further to find the right blance. A forward facing omni in front can be nice too.

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that this was done to death here at Gearslutz a few years back. It is known as the "Recorderman Setup " (not that he started the idea but just that he brought it up on a message board back then).

I would only add one more thing to this. You should add a "D" and "E" to the photo....



"D" and "E" should be equidistant to the kick and the mics.

The best way to set this up (that I have found) is to take one long piece of string and tape one end to the middle of the snare and the other end to the point at which the kick beater hits the kick head.

Hold the string between your thumb and first finger and pull it to the highest point it will go over the snare. Put a piece of tape on the string at that point and place your over snare mic there. Now still holding on to the string at the same point (this is why you put the tape there.. heh ) move it back to the side of the drummer and put the 2nd mic at the string / tape mark.

Now both the snare and the kick will be in the center of your image. Well they will be close anyway, while someone is playing the kit you should (or someone should) move the "tom" overhead around a bit until the kick and snare show up in the center of your stereo image. If you use the string technique you should not have to move the tom overhead more than a few 1/4's of an inch to get the desired effect but you never know.

Anyway YMMV but centering the kick and the snare is always my goal when doing this technique and the string idea is a good way to get started in the right direction. Oh and I still use a bunch of mics around the kit even when I use this setup so checking phase becomes really important because this is not a "get the cymbals" set up this is a "get the whole kit" setup.
Old 27th July 2005
  #24
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audioez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka
Easy, not trying to offend you, just trying to help out. It sounds like your technique could use a little tweaking. It can be tricky to get good low end from the snare and the toms when not using close mics, but it is possible.

This is a two overhead and kick mic deal, no compression or no eq at this point and tracked to 2" 16. Its pretty dark sounding right now, but i am just positing it to illustrate that with golden ears, you can get lots more low end... even without spot mics on the snare (or the toms for that matter.)

http://sfrecording.com/mcidrums.aif
not offended one bit!!! I'm just glad someone listened to the clip; although these clips are from my rehearsal space, which is a far cry from a real studio.... thanks ez

As for the clip you posted, I'm not too sure what I should be listening for, it sounds like someone bussed the bass to the drum tracks, oi vey!
Old 27th July 2005
  #25
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioez
not offended one bit!!! I'm just glad someone listened to the clip; although these clips are from my rehearsal space, which is a far cry from a real studio.... thanks ez

As for the clip you posted, I'm not too sure what I should be listening for, it sounds like someone bussed the bass to the drum tracks, oi vey!
Well...
This thread is about 3 mic drum techniques. Those drums were tracked with 3 mics, using the recorderman method. As I mentioned in my post, I was explaining how it IS possible to get more low end while only using 3 mics. You seemed to be mocking me, so I though I'd put out and example so you could hear how this is possible.

Sorry about the bass being in the track, but this actually wasn't a clip that was made specifically for this thread but is a snippet of a headphone mix that was given to another musician so that they could learn the song.
Old 27th July 2005
  #26
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audioez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka
Sorry about the bass being in the track, but this actually wasn't a clip that was made specifically for this thread but is a snippet of a headphone mix that was given to another musician so that they could learn the song.
ok, I understand..now lets turn this back to the 3 mic thread!
Old 27th July 2005
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS
isn't that a bit more than 3 ???????

I thought that's what I said...


Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
Not really a modern overkill technique, but not minimalist either.
Old 28th July 2005
  #28
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jjblair's Avatar
Notsonew, the whole point of measuring from the center of the snare of so that the imaging is snare centric. As far as whether or not the kick is centered or not, sometime just turning the overhead so that the top of the mic faces more toward the kick or the tom can help. Needless to say, the diaphragm direction should stay the same.
Old 28th July 2005
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
Larrchild's Avatar
 

Quote:
one story goes that one of the overhead stands slipped and the mic ended up peeking over the floor tom. when the assistant offered to raise it back up glynn said "why bother, - it sounds great!"
after reading a gaggle of posts on correct ortf and bleumlein positioning. this pleases me.
Old 28th July 2005
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair
Notsonew, the whole point of measuring from the center of the snare of so that the imaging is snare centric. As far as whether or not the kick is centered or not, sometime just turning the overhead so that the top of the mic faces more toward the kick or the tom can help. Needless to say, the diaphragm direction should stay the same.
It's all cool man. Look I have been doing this for a long time and we can agree to disagree. thumbsup When I do the string trick I can get the snare and kick centered.

Just because it might look like this setup is "snare centric" I personally feel that there is no such thing as "snare centric" overheads. Drums are one big instrument to me, I put spot mics up to get a bit of focus if I need it but I build my mix on the room and overheads so for me getting the kick and snare centered is important. It might not be for important for others and that is all cool. Using the string trick is very easy and if you can get the the same and potentially better results not sure why someone would not use it.....

*shrug*

Also I don't believe that the diaphragm direction must stay the same. In my experience I can get very good results from angling the "tom" overhead at the floor tom. YMMV but this set up can give you all kinds of different options so it is worth experimenting with it.
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