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"high end" mastering plug in?
Old 14th April 2003
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
Heterodox's Avatar
 

Brad gets the award for most helpful most quickly. Thank you and may your children's children be kings.
Old 15th April 2003
  #32
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Congrats, Brad (lol). HD, think you can spend too much time asking questions here until people tell you what you want to hear. Good advice though it may be, it is limited to one or a few perspectives. If you're really hungry for knowledge and experience, I suggest you look closer to the source. That's why I believe questions about mastering are best directed to the ME's who do a great deal of the work most people listen to. I don't know, but if you haven't tried the link to the Mastering Board, I'd give it a shot. I'm stunned by what I've learned there, and a better engineer for it.
Old 19th April 2003
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
Jack the Bear's Avatar
 

I firmly believe that ME do a specialized task, but if people want to do their own, good luck to them.

I agree plug-ins aren't enough, but in the right hands and ears some good results can occur.

People should learn more about the mastering process if not for their own work, then to at least be more conversant and therefore be able to better communicate to their ME.

The Waves mastering bundle is meant to be O.K.


Cheers,
Old 20th April 2003
  #34
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Heterodox

I don't really have a list of well respected MEs in the area (Austin, TX), nor do I have any material and/or money for them.

I'll have more than adequate funds to allocate to rooms, monitors, etc - so my learning and application environment should be miles above typical DIY and merely inches/feet below "Professional." - if not on par.
Doesn't anyone see any contradiction here?

Assuming speakers, amps, EQ's, compressors, converters, workstations, 2-track, and most of all, acoustic modifications are going to cost minimally $100,000 (or more, since Hetero wants highest of the high end), what would be the big deal for spending a couple of hundred bucks on a plane ticket to NY, LA, Nashville, or Portland, Maine.

A few phone calls ought to be sufficient to set up a deal to observe and even ask a few questions for a week or two, even if you have to pay a little for the privilege. (Think of it as tuition).

It's a problematic philosophy you've got there: Tens of thousands for gear, but not one cent for education?
Old 20th April 2003
  #35
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

Yeah. I don't think I'll get a "most helpful" award for this, but I stand by previous post: you're best off going to a real ME.

From your previous posts, I get that you're not going to be recording with an MBox in your garage. However, even many "real" tracking/mixing studios don't have good enough acoustic environments for mastering. (Check out Bob Ludwig's Gateway website to see some of the lengths that top facilities will to go.)

Besides that, though, you're buying the experience of the ME.

There are good reasons that:
1) Almost all top-level mixers will have someone else master their stuff
2) Almost all top-level mastering guys have been at it for a quite a while.

Even with quality equipment, you're going to have a very tough time getting even near the results you'd get from a really good ME. So again, I'd say, book time somewhere good, take advantage of hearing your stuff in an accurate environment, and ask lots of questions.
Old 20th April 2003
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
Jack the Bear's Avatar
 

Mastering is still one of those misunderstood areas (shit I'm still trying to come to terms with it)!!!

They call it "the black art"......I don't see it as that at all. It's a pretty simple concept that has been made more complicated and yet sophisticated.
Don't get me wrong, I love technology (the DAW in my book was the biggest revolution in mastering).


Because invariably most sessions go over time and dollar budgets, by the time the mastering option is debated, there's usually not much left in the kitty, so corners are usually cut.

A good ME can really work magic provided the mix is solid and it is suggested you use one. If for no other reason but to have an independent set of ears on the project.

I still think people shouldn't be discouraged if they wanna do it or learn. It can only be good for their development and let's face it we're all in a lifelong apprenticeship.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
Old 20th April 2003
  #37
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bear
I still think people shouldn't be discouraged if they wanna do it or learn. It can only be good for their development and let's face it we're all in a lifelong apprenticeship.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
I totally agree; I just think people need to be realistic about the kind of results they'll get at first, with "at first" often being measured in years. That lifelong apprenticeship has to involve some input from others, hopefully in person and not just in newsgroups. Trial and error will only get you so far.
Old 20th April 2003
  #38
Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
Yeah. I don't think I'll get a "most helpful" award for this, but I stand by previous post: you're best off going to a real ME.

From your previous posts, I get that you're not going to be recording with an MBox in your garage. However, even many "real" tracking/mixing studios don't have good enough acoustic environments for mastering. (Check out Bob Ludwig's Gateway website to see some of the lengths that top facilities will to go.)

Besides that, though, you're buying the experience of the ME.

There are good reasons that:
1) Almost all top-level mixers will have someone else master their stuff
2) Almost all top-level mastering guys have been at it for a quite a while.

Even with quality equipment, you're going to have a very tough time getting even near the results you'd get from a really good ME. So again, I'd say, book time somewhere good, take advantage of hearing your stuff in an accurate environment, and ask lots of questions.
I agree, even though I do it on my own now, as I had mentioned before I spent 5 years having my mixed product mastered by 3 other ME's. It taught me a lot. And even to this day if I was actually doing something nationally released I would send it to someone else. Economics and convenience dictate that I master my clients own product, and it's turning out quite well, but only because I've been doing it for quite some time. It's all experience.
Old 21st April 2003
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
Jack the Bear's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
. Trial and error will only get you so far. [/B]
Well it was Einstein (I think) that said the secret to genius was to double your mistake rate. Newsgroups are fine as are books and watchin the pros in action, but NOTHING beats rolling up your sleeves and geting your hands dirty.

Some of my greatest "discoveries", were due to the ol' "let's see what happens when I do THIS".

By continually trialling things we can avert being complacent or comfortable once we find a method that works. That's why we have to think outside the square.

While we always feel we never have enough gear, we can also never have enough techniques.

Cheers,

Tony Mantz.
Old 21st April 2003
  #40
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bear
While we always feel we never have enough gear, we can also never have enough techniques.
Old 21st April 2003
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
Heterodox's Avatar
 

I'm in agreeance that it takes a long time and a lot of experience to become a professional ME - but who ever said I wanted to be responsible for mastering Sony's newest batch of cds next week? As Jack said Einstein said: "the secret to genius is to double your mistake rate"...and I'm a firm believer of this. Its blasphemy to think I would (or anyone for that matter) just sit around on forums/read books and then go buy 1 million $ of gear in an absurd attempt to show Bob Ludwig where to shove it.

And true, the best Mix engies might still send off to venerable MEs, but magic happens the most when the rules are disobeyed to a controlled extent. And magic or not, ITS JUST FUN! I am a gigantic thirsty sponge when it comes to all things musical, and I will pursue every field of it till the end of my days. The end result may not be as "good" as it could have been, but it will be a hell of a lot more personal, and I will learn more. Speaking of personal, this all IS for me (my band/music) - not anyone else. So knowing the ins and outs to a 'T' right off the bat is not neccessary to even the smallest extent.

Doesn't anyone see any contradiction here?

Assuming speakers, amps, EQ's, compressors, converters, workstations, 2-track, and most of all, acoustic modifications are going to cost minimally $100,000 (or more, since Hetero wants highest of the high end), what would be the big deal for spending a couple of hundred bucks on a plane ticket to NY, LA, Nashville, or Portland, Maine.

A few phone calls ought to be sufficient to set up a deal to observe and even ask a few questions for a week or two, even if you have to pay a little for the privilege. (Think of it as tuition).

It's a problematic philosophy you've got there: Tens of thousands for gear, but not one cent for education?


In regards to this: Its just plain silly.

I don't have any money. I said I MIGHT (uncertainty) be getting (future tense) it. When/if I have the money I won't be sitting in forums asking questions to gather information with regards to product selection...I'll be spendin it! (and no, not just on gear) I'll be in recording / mastering facilities quicker than you can shake a stick and attempting to learn from real world encounters.

I think there's an overwhelming negative reaction (not mean negative, just discouraging negative) when someone mentions mastering on their own. Why is this such a taboo? Its like everyone is scared of it or doesn't want there to be any more qualified MEs in the world. How cool would it be to own your own mastering facility and be able to master your OWN material...followed by taking the UNmastered material to a veteran and observing his procedures/experience at work vs. your own petty attempts. Integration/adaptation/EVOLUTION anybody?

I fear not the mastering sword - and may my horribly inexperienced and wildly unprofessional attempts be revered by the world and hailed as the new standard. fuuck
Old 21st April 2003
  #42
Lives for gear
 
littledog's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Heterodox


I stand to gain a substantial amount of money in the near future and will be applying it solely to the highest-of-the-highest gear purchases.
Quote:
Originally posted by Heterodox


In regards to this (re: Littledog's earlier post): Its just plain silly.

I don't have any money. I said I MIGHT (uncertainty) be getting (future tense) it. When/if I have the money I won't be sitting in forums asking questions to gather information with regards to product selection...I'll be spendin it! (and no, not just on gear) I'll be in recording / mastering facilities quicker than you can shake a stick and attempting to learn from real world encounters.

Forgive me for being plain silly enough to assume your situation (and feelings) would be at least somewhat consistent from one day to the next! I still don't see why a quick apprenticeship or an observation period wouldn't be a cost-effective and far more efficient way of learning, regardless of your current financial state. But maybe that's because I wish I too hadn't been so stubborn as to try and learn everything on my own.
Old 21st April 2003
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
Heterodox's Avatar
 

erm, sorry - allow me to explain my current financial state:

No job.
Live with parents.
Owe upwards of $3,000.
Ebay is the only breast giving me milk (goodbye gear, hope to see you again someday!)

Yes, pathetic - I know...and I have no good excuse for such a state. Well actually I do but you wouldn't want to hear them =]
Getting a job ASAP anyhow.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Heterodox


I stand to gain a substantial amount of money in the near future and will be applying it solely to the highest-of-the-highest gear purchases.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eh yes yes...I was being brief. It would seem I omited the "might" from "I stand to gain" - I was trying to quickly convey the point that the price is not an issue. Really if I DON'T get the money there is no reason to seriously consider mastering and related EXPENSIVE passions right now - it would take 10 years of working full time to afford anything worth having. Obviously I wouldn't spend ALL of the money. There's multiple other things...building construction, duplication savings, fun lighting fixtures (ok lets be honest, half the money will inevitably go to the joy of crazy lights and/or fog machines ), etc - I didn't feel the need to lay out my life plan. =p I can appreciate the confusion.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Heterodox


You have to understand that I'm, of course, MONSTROUSLY interested in the experience side of things - but the quickest thing to pick up on right now is the tools needed. I have made it a point that I'd like to view everything working in a real application before making any purchases - so that I fully understand the dynamics of everything involved. Obviously that would require a sit in or some alternate learning environment and currently that's not on the schedule =\

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see though, I already mentioned my interest in real-world learning. There are a variety of different methods of learning at this point and I'm simply utilizing one of them whilst it is the most convenient and cost-effective. This is like my reconnaissance phase and I'm doing PRE-pre-research to prepare.

Anyhoo we are arguing semantics and its getting pretty horrendously off the original topic (Mastering Plug-ins, lol!). I think everyone pretty much agrees on the same things in general - but omission, lack of insight into eachother's entire lives, and the simple back and forth nature of forums can confuse things.
Old 21st April 2003
  #44
Jax
Lives for gear
 

The guy from Limp Bizkit used the 'word' "agreeance" at an awards show.

Sorry, couldn't resist. heh

Quote:
Originally posted by Heterodox
I'm in agreeance that..
Old 21st April 2003
  #45
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Heterodox
I think there's an overwhelming negative reaction (not mean negative, just discouraging negative) when someone mentions mastering on their own. Why is this such a taboo? Its like everyone is scared of it or doesn't want there to be any more qualified MEs in the world. How cool would it be to own your own mastering facility and be able to master your OWN material...followed by taking the UNmastered material to a veteran and observing his procedures/experience at work vs. your own petty attempts. Integration/adaptation/EVOLUTION anybody?

I fear not the mastering sword - and may my horribly inexperienced and wildly unprofessional attempts be revered by the world and hailed as the new standard. fuuck
I don't mean to be discouraging. I'm just trying to pass on what I learned the hard way, which I of course can't guarantee will apply to you in the same way. And I think it's vital to learn as much as you can about every step of the recording process, so please don't take that I'm putting that down.

I thought Nathan's last post made a lot of good points. For me, when I'm recording people who are on a limited budget, I've sometimes ended up doing psuedo-mastering for them, and after ruining things for a few years, I'm starting to feel like I can minimize the damage.

But since you mentioned an ideal world... in my ideal world, I'd never do this. To me, the main point of getting something mastered is to have an outside pair of ears. So I don't really get when people are so eager to do their own mastering--it feels to me like you'd be missing the key part of the process.

But best of luck, no matter what you end up doing.
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