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Will Big Ben improve mid-end converters?
Old 19th July 2005
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

what?.. your saying the because there mid-high range product isn't as good as their highest range product they're ripoff merchants?...

chances are (and I don't actualy know if this is true) that the clocking is the biggest difference between the two boxes..
Old 19th July 2005
  #32
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John The Cut's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by username
what?.. your saying the because there mid-high range product isn't as good as their highest range product they're ripoff merchants?...

chances are (and I don't actualy know if this is true) that the clocking is the biggest difference between the two boxes..
What I'm saying is that Rosetta's internal clock should be of a quality that clocking with BB shouldn't make as much of a difference.

Assuming it does make a difference, of course..
Old 19th July 2005
  #33
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StoneinaPond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogWai
What I'm saying is that Rosetta's internal clock should be of a quality that clocking with BB shouldn't make as much of a difference.

Assuming it does make a difference, of course..
In a one to one situation it does not.

In a multiple units situation, the overall performance of the system will increase, thus yielding better results.
Old 19th July 2005
  #34
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dolo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond
In a one to one situation it does not.

In a multiple units situation, the overall performance of the system will increase, thus yielding better results.

this is exactly what i'm talking about. i have more gear than one rosetta can clock. thus the need for the bb. thus effectively having all my digital devices on the same clock. i look at it as the big ben is the conductor in an orchestra. it'll be very difficult for a 96 piece orch to play in perfect time without the conductor. the tempo will be smear and less distinct will ever one tries to keep his own timming.

just my 2¢
Old 19th July 2005
  #35
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For the price of a Big Ben, you can get the Lucid GenX96 and a Lucid A/D coverter, and still have the orchestra playing to one baton. Or stick a $350 Lucid w/c distributor on a Rosetta/Lavry or whatever hi-end A/D converter you use and have everything sync to that. Why pay the extra for the Big Ben?
Old 19th July 2005
  #36
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dolo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergievsky
For the price of a Big Ben, you can get the Lucid GenX96 and a Lucid A/D coverter, and still have the orchestra playing to one baton. Or stick a $350 Lucid w/c distributor on a Rosetta/Lavry or whatever hi-end A/D converter you use and have everything sync to that. Why pay the extra for the Big Ben?
becuase i chose to! simple as that. i've used the apogee stuff for as long as i can remember and am quite happy with their performance and quality. i go with what i know and what is comfortable to me. i love their sound and i got the unit at cost. i'm not arguing the cost but the reasoning behind getting a master clock. if that is your choice to use the lucid, then by all means go for it.
Old 19th July 2005
  #37
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Billster's Avatar
 

You´ll hear it

Big Ben will most definately improve the sound of your converters. I use Rosendahl Nanoclock and it surely improved the converters of my 96 IO.

If you produce a converter on a tight budget, you gotta spare some money somewhere - usually it´s in the clock, because people think that hearing a good clock is a myth. I noticed the difference right away, when I clocked by interfaces to the Nanoclock.

Cheers,
Bill
Old 19th July 2005
  #38
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This thread is a mess.

Yes, the Big Ben will improve the sound of your lo-mid converters, O2r's, Digi 001, 002, 888's, MOTU, etc. It won't be night and day, but it will be noticeable - there is only so far these units can go.

Big Ben will also improve the sound of high end converters - I had an AD8000se for years and the BB improved it, almost to the point where I could do without a second Rosetta 800. (Yes, the Rosetta's were improved by the BB.)

By "improve the sound of", I mean tighten up the imaging, improve the depth, in some cases extend and smooth the frequency response. You won't be able to hear some of these improvements if you don't have a decent monitoring setup. It's not just about the equipment - it is also how you have positioned the monitors and treated your room.

All of this will depend on proper installation, cables, etc.

For those who say BB "can't" improve sound quality, consider the thought that BB might be doing something that other clocks don't do. Technology marches on and the old answers get left behind. Remember, humans "can't" fly.

Some of the opinions expressed here are from folks who haven't ever used the gear in question - it is a recurring theme on the forum. Lots of opinions from what they have heard from someone else, etc. Pay attention to these at your own risk.

Also, you may find opinions from people who simply like or don't like certain companies. If you were a Ford family and ever heard your dad talk about Chevy's, you know what I mean. I like Apogee stuff, I have used it for years, but that is no way for you to choose a product.

The best way for you to find out is to try the product in question and use your own ears. I know, it's a radical concept. No matter where you are, there is a dealer somewhere who will sell you a piece and allow you to return it if you don't like it. Better that you spend some money on shipping than rely too much on the opinions of others.

That being said, take the time to do a search on BB. You will find the majority of folks who have used one heard their sound improve. Look at these opinions as indications rather than gospel.

Best....H
Old 19th July 2005
  #39
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Nah, this thread isn't a mess. Everyone has helped. And I was just playing devil's ad suggesting the Lucid and stuff. Again, I wish I can audition the stuff here, but even if a dealer does agree, I wouldn't trust shipping and most especially our supertrustworthy customs to make those things hassle-free.

What it basically comes down to is I need a master clock. Feature-wise the BB has what I need (Lucid...almost ). BB is supposed to be one of the best clocks at this time so I'll spring for it, since I am now trying to not settle for anything less, just save up until I can afford what I want. After a 4k mic and a 2.5k channel strip I'm not about to skimp on the master clock. It just sucks I don't have enough money to include a hi-end converter, since my commander-in-chief pretty much declared martial law on our finances until we build our dream home.

Thanks all, if I'm not a happy camper with it you can bet you'll be hearing from me.
Old 19th July 2005
  #40
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I'm in the minority about this but I thought the Big Ben ****ED up the sound of the Rosetta 200, made the midrange smear and artificially smoothed the top end so that the sound had no balls. I even posted files here.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th July 2005
  #41
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I think it will improve the sound to an extent, but it won't be the magic bullet you are looking for. If you are just looking for a boost, it will do the trick, especially for the Motu converters because those are pretty, well, bad.
Old 19th July 2005
  #42
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dolo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watersound
I think it will improve the sound to an extent, but it won't be the magic bullet you are looking for. If you are just looking for a boost, it will do the trick, especially for the Motu converters because those are pretty, well, bad.

this is what i agree with. i don't think it will be the "magic Bulle.t" but for the person like me who is always looking for even an overall improvemen in every aspect will appreciate this. even if it's only minimal. it's like some people change the strings on a guitar or the heads on a drum kit before they record. that's not for everyone but those who do it love it.

everyone have to judge for themselves if the out lay is worth the gain. for some it will be while for others it won't. i'm the former category.
Old 19th July 2005
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atticus
Ummm, here is the link to the digital gear list at Bob Ludwig's studio, Gateway mastering:

http://www.gatewaymastering.com/masttech.asp

And here is the link to the Mix magazine (May 05) article about Mark Knopfler where it is very clearly stated that he prefers to record to 2 inch, 16 track analog and then dump to digital, via the AD-16x.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_mark_knopfler/

I'm not trying to cause any issues here, but I think that we should not make blanket statements without first checking our facts. Thanks.
And I heard Mark Knopflers last albums were mixed through a Prism converter.
Old 19th July 2005
  #44
Gear Head
 

I love my Big Ben , it did improve my sound even when I used it with my old Mix 3 with 888's. And I love it with my HD Accel 3 with 192 or my Apogee(preferred) I did noticed more depth and better image or maybe I'm crazy!!!!!I nneded it anyway since at the time I was using a Digital mixer and other stuff.Now that I have a Pro Control it clocks a PT rig with a Logic rig and a Gigasmpler and it made life easier for me . The only drawback is I have to get up my butt and change the sample rates directly on my Big Ben!!!!
Old 19th July 2005
  #45


Well, if you need a master clock, you need it.

For those of you looking to improve a single converter by using an external clock:

You should try different cable lengths and different impedance cables as well (a few different connectors thrown in for good measure if you can). The reason is that you are adding jitter by using an external clock. Changing the character of this jitter is what will make you like it or not. Changing the charateristic of the "interconnect" will affect the charateristic of the jitter you are adding.

You may have less jitter with a good external clock with really cheap converter, but then why pay $1200 for a clock to feed your $400 converter?



-tINY

Old 19th July 2005
  #46
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadfoot Frank
And I heard Mark Knopflers last albums were mixed through a Prism converter.
And I like M.K first albums much more. By the way who care about Mark Knopler's last albums. Are they so exciting to use his name as reference for converters?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
I'm in the minority about this but I thought the Big Ben ****ED up the sound of the Rosetta 200, made the midrange smear and artificially smoothed the top end so that the sound had no balls. I even posted files here.
Bang, your posts with samples were really great and I enjoyed some of your threads.
Here we need more precise standpoint, did you hear that BB influenced DA or AD. In our carefully performed comparisons and test BB improved overall perception of tracks done with Rosetta's AD. I usually use Benchmark DAC or Rosetta DA both clocked by its own clocks, so the influence of BB to Rosetta's AD was apparent and overall positive (without entering into deeper details).
But to consider BB only as clock for one coverter is overkill IMO, due to simple fact that no modern studio has only one digital converter, but many other digital devices, so good clock is indispensable purchase in any case.
I switched from Rosendahl (that is very good clock) to BB after couple of days of test and IMO BB will improve practically any setup with 2 or more digital devices

GYang
Old 20th July 2005
  #47
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Sergievsky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY

...You may have less jitter with a good external clock with really cheap converter, but then why pay $1200 for a clock to feed your $400 converter?

-tINY

Well, I'm thinkin' my 5 digital gears I need to sync add up to about 30 inputs, most of those being used by synths. If BB does improve those converters even a small amount multiplied by 30 then it isn't so small anymore, right? And if a BB can improve the D/A in those converters, which feeds my monitors, then it's an even better value. (Does a clock affect D/A? I know Benchmark and such reclocks, but what about the mid-range ones?)
Old 20th July 2005
  #48
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dolo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergievsky
. (Does a clock affect D/A?
yes it should. my personal opinion is if you have more than a few pieces of digital equipment then a good clock is worth it. i believe you will see the difference in your system over all. i guess to what degree is subjective. i think a good master clock and clean power (just bought a Richard Gray RGPC 1200s power conditioner) pulled everything together and makes a world of a difference jn my studio...
Old 20th July 2005
  #49
Lek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergievsky
I got a headache from reading all those ext vs int clock threads, but I still have to ask. For my setup, the converters I have are a Digi 002R, Yamaha AW4416 mixer/daw, a Presonus Firestation, and Motu 2408.

So it's looking like I need a master clock. Has anyone any experience with any of these things clocked with a Big Ben? BTW, most of the budget is going to a high-end mic and channel strip, which left me just short of getting a/d the likes of Rosetta 200. And since the 002R doesn't have separate word clock input my options for an ext clock gen seems to only be the Big Ben with its spdif out.

If a Big Ben can get all these things...umm...converting to their highest ability, it would be worth the money, n'est ce pa?
Hey there
referring to your original post, I use a Yamaha AW4416 and thought for a long time about getting a good clock which I read significantly improved its crappy converters.

I didn't get a clock but I ended up getting a crane song hedd for a/d and a benchmark d/a instead of the yamaha's. Holy ****! is all I can say as to the improvement on both ends.
Old 20th July 2005
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
I'm in the minority about this but I thought the Big Ben ****ED up the sound of the Rosetta 200, made the midrange smear and artificially smoothed the top end so that the sound had no balls. I even posted files here.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
But you also thought BB made the Lavry sound better, as did everyone else who listened blind. The Lavry is a high end converter, is it not? (that was a rhetorical question, BTW)

Bang, I have used Big Ben for a long time now, and I have never heard it do what you described to any piece of gear it has been clocked to, including the Rosetta 800, which I believe is the same as the 200. I have heard it significantly improve a converter, such as a Prism or MOTU, I have heard it subtley improve a converter, such as the Rosetta 800, Cranesong and Lavry boxes. I have never heard it screw up a converter and other than your post I have not seen anyone else say it has either.
Old 20th July 2005
  #51
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Sergievsky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolo
... i think a good master clock and clean power (just bought a Richard Gray RGPC 1200s power conditioner) pulled everything together and makes a world of a difference jn my studio...
Our power is so bad I might skip the conditioner and just get a couple more UPS. It really dips so low that I doubt any conditioner could effectively regulate it. But yeah, I agree stable power is extremely important. I was checking out the Equitech, will look into the Robert Gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp71
...didn't get a clock but I ended up getting a crane song hedd for a/d -setting the yamaha to follow clock from the hedd- and a benchmark d/a instead of the yamaha's. Holy ****! is all I can say as to the improvement on both ends.
That's exacty where I wanted to go, but run out of moulah. I didn't want a marginal jump with converters. If I'm gonna fork over $1,000 it needs to be a substantial upgrade in quality. So I'm gonna just have to start saving my centavos I guess, and hopefully converters gets cheaper and cheaper and better and better. Crane Song is definitely on the radar!
Old 20th July 2005
  #52
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dolo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergievsky
Our power is so bad I might skip the conditioner and just get a couple more UPS. It really dips so low that I doubt any conditioner could effectively regulate it. But yeah, I agree stable power is extremely important. I was checking out the Equitech, will look into the Robert Gray.
it's "RICHARD GRAY" not "ROBERT." The website is www.richardgrayspowercompany.com. i aslo think you might be wrong thinking that a power conditioner won't help your situation. you just need the right one. check out their website but i must warn you that these things are pretty pricey.
Old 20th July 2005
  #53
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hehe oops I must've confused that with the Robert Gray-made in China power regulators. heh

Man, that's expensive stuff. No wonder my wife doesn't believe me anymore when I say "No really, this is all I need. The studio's complete, I don't require anything else..."
Old 20th July 2005
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadfoot Frank
And I heard Mark Knopflers last albums were mixed through a Prism converter.
Nope. Mark's producer/engineer, Chuck Ainlay, is an Apogee endorser and used the AD/DA 16X series on the last record, according to Apogee's website.
Old 20th July 2005
  #55
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He's also been a Mytek endorser.

ruudman
Old 20th July 2005
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogWai
The only time an external clock improves the sound is if the internal clock is crud in the first place.
Care to expand on this?
Old 20th July 2005
  #57
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruudman
He's also been a Mytek endorser.

ruudman
So, why not to continue with Prism
Old 21st July 2005
  #58
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SoZo's Avatar
Here is a quote

"When I replaced my old
converters with the Apogee AD-16X
& DA-16X I noticed an improvement
in the overall tightness of the
sound. While blind testing at British
Grove Studios, in London, both
Mark Knopfler and I and everyone
else present chose the 16Xs over 1”
analog at 15ips, 1/2” analog at 30ips
and a hot-rodded DSD rig. The sonic
quality and fl exibility of the AD-16X
& DA-16X are amazing.”

Producer/Mixer/Engineer
Recent Projects: “Shangri-La” - Mark Knopfl er,
“My Honky Tonk History”- Travis Tritt,
“Between Here and Gone” - Mary Chapin Carpenter
Hear the quality of the 16Xs...
on the new Mark Knopfl er, Emmylou Harris
duets album available this fall.

Chuck Ainlay


so fuuck u heh Joke

lol
Old 21st July 2005
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadfoot Frank
And I heard Mark Knopflers last albums were mixed through a Prism converter.
Several Mark Knopfler records were tracked with Mytek 8X96 to Nuendo at 96k since 2000, when they got them (24 tracks of in/out)

As far as I know they are still using them in London. Maybe Apogees are in Nashville.

Michal www.mytekdigital.com
Old 21st July 2005
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddS
But you also thought BB made the Lavry sound better, as did everyone else who listened blind. The Lavry is a high end converter, is it not? (that was a rhetorical question, BTW)

Bang, I have used Big Ben for a long time now, and I have never heard it do what you described to any piece of gear it has been clocked to, including the Rosetta 800, which I believe is the same as the 200. I have heard it significantly improve a converter, such as a Prism or MOTU, I have heard it subtley improve a converter, such as the Rosetta 800, Cranesong and Lavry boxes. I have never heard it screw up a converter and other than your post I have not seen anyone else say it has either.
Fletcher, who sells the Big Ben along with other converters, had this to say on these forums a couple of weeks ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher
You guys kill me... uhhh, hello... what are you using for D/A's? Don't you think that the D/A you're using might be contributing to what you're hearing as well as the A/D? Monitors have different responses that can often mediate or exacerbate the anomalies you might experience with different conversion systems... never mind the effect that different amplifiers can have on different monitors if you're using passive monitors.

That, and E-V-E-R-Y clock, internal, external or existential will impart it's own sound which may or may not be to your liking... and is not part of the sound of the original equipment.

Now I've heard the 'Big Ben' do a wonderful thing to Apogee's Rosetta 800... and I've heard the Big Ben do something pretty cool to the Lynx 'Aurora-16' and totally make my RADAR-V sound like ass... as in it totally changed not only the tones but fukked with the balance of my mix in a huge way... now maybe it would have been a positive if I had started the mix with the Big Ben in place... but I didn't. We hooked up the Big Ben after the mix was ready to print and it totally killed the vibe, balances, size, dimension, and emotion of the mix that was up on the desk when the clock was added... but like I said, I've heard it help other stuff in no small way so I wouldn't take anything conclusive from the previous statement just a matter of observation.

If you want a fairer test you need one variable, and that's all... in other words, the listeners should all be in the same monitoring environment... same D/A, same monitors in the same room or you're talking about a variable impression of a variable event.

The clocking system isn't a variable, it's a large part of the sound of any/all of these units!! If you want to do a secondary test with and without an external word clock that's a different story, otherwise you really need to evaluate all of these converters running on their internal clock to get the full picture of how they actually sound. By using only one clock in the process in many ways you're imposing one manufacturer's view of the world on the other manufacturer's products... and it's all well and good that you might want to do that, but understand that it is what you're doing.
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