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At Last: Nicerizer 16 vs. ITB (aif's & mp3's)
Old 17th July 2005
  #121
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
pre-reveal, i get 9 for the nicer, 10 for itb. it is noteworthy, as you said, that regardless of how you felt about it, the nicerizer made a big difference that was noticeable.
ui was very critical if someone was black and white about it... so i probably left some fence sitters off my counts. why i had to divide it into right v. wrong and like v dislike. some werent clear one way or an0ther.
Old 17th July 2005
  #122
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There's something similar about mixing into compression and mixing into a summing box. If you start the mix with the compression, or turn it on early, it usually gels a lot better than turning on the buss comp later.

It's the same with summing boxes I imagine. I've only had limited time with this one, but it's just a hybrid form of digital/analog mixing. The analog benefits are definitely there for me, I can tell that already.

There is a massive difference in the sound quality using the Nicerizer 16 as opposed to using the stereo mix function on my Fairlight multitrack. The Fairlight stereo function is just a quick n' dirty mix bus though. Certainly not up to the level of Pro Tools or other quality DAWs. It sounds much thinner than the N 16 raw mix.
Old 17th July 2005
  #123
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It sucks that my studio is just a room full of cardboard boxes right now because I'd love to hear this. Thanks ubik for posting, and hopefully the files will still be available when my LA mix room is ready.

I have never needed convincing of summing outside, the added harmonic distortions created by the analog components add a nice flare to a good rock mix. My Midas Venice really made my mixes come alive and I bet the Nicerizer would do the same. For guys trying to sum on the cheap.. the new Mackie Onyx stuff is damn good, great sounding eqs and nice clean summing that will probably add to the ITB sound. The new large format ones even look cool.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 17th July 2005
  #124
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Steve..when are you coming to LA?
I'd love to check the new room sometime..
Whats the setup gonna be?
Old 17th July 2005
  #125
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u b k's Avatar
 

okay gents, files are back online. thanks for your patience.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 17th July 2005
  #126
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

sweet bajesus.... 76MB?!? is this a long song or 24/48? 24/44.1?
Old 17th July 2005
  #127
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

alright checked out all three, i think the first two are totally similar and wouldnt matter one way or another. if anything i find the low end more muddy on the first than the second and the phase shift in the intro in 1 to be more annoying than 2. but this is MINIMAL things.... NOTHING the majority of people would even notice.

the mastering job... i dunno man. its too much for this type of song. and brought up too much noise. im enjoying the unmastered more.

productionwise... i think the vox is too dry for this type of style. i would of had a lot more "fun" with the mix personally with some added "ear candy" than it has. its too straightfoward for my tastes and the vibe it has.
Old 17th July 2005
  #128
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
but this is MINIMAL things.... NOTHING the majority of people would even notice.

the mastering job... i dunno man. its too much for this type of song. and brought up too much noise. im enjoying the unmastered more.
I don't agree with your first statement. First of all, I think any AE will immediately hear a clear difference. Secondly, although I don't think the casual listener would consciously identify a difference, I think do you'll get a better overall enjoyment quotient out of mix #1. I think if you could somehow design an experiment to see which one people would listen to more in their casual day to day environment, it would be #1. (i.e., pass out 1000 CD's randomly, with 500 of each mix, log plays, and I'll bet #1 wins) Personally, I kept wanting to hear it again, but with mix 2 I wanted to make a phone call or check my email or something.

In any case, it's all a game of inches.

As for the mastering job, I think it was professional and placed the song in the modern short attention span window properly, but it was too fussy for my taste and some of the vibe that I felt in mix 1 was lost. Personally, I thought the song just needed a very slight eq tweak.

-R
Old 17th July 2005
  #129
Gear Nut
 
papiel's Avatar
 

Both mixes are superb IMHO.
Mix 2 wins since it's a bit more detailed than #1. It has more "air" and "openness" in the high end and more defined bottom. I can hear what the bass plays better.
But this is all very subtle. I won't spend my next 2500$ on analog summing (if #2 is the analog summed mix) to get that nuance.
Old 17th July 2005
  #130
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
I think if you could somehow design an experiment to see which one people would listen to more in their casual day to day environment, it would be #1. (i.e., pass out 1000 CD's randomly, with 500 of each mix, log plays, and I'll bet #1 wins) Personally, I kept wanting to hear it again, but with mix 2 I wanted to make a phone call or check my email or something.

i would bet otherwise... i thought 2 was a tad stronger, but i dont think 99% of the population would care either way nor would they even hear a difference.

there were more production things i thought that could of been stronger than which way it was mixed... and i didnt want to hear the mastered version at all for long. now THAT the 99% of people might notice.


also, i dont know what the settings were on the API but it was clamping too quickly for my tastes.... something was weird, and it was on both mixes that dampened the mix IMO.
Old 17th July 2005
  #131
Gear Maniac
 

man... that's bad, very bad idea IMHO....

good material > mixing > nicerizer > ready > masteing > garbage

In fact, you can safely sell both the API box and Nicerizer if you're going for the kind of mastering.
Old 17th July 2005
  #132
Lives for gear
 

Ok posting before reading (just to see where my kind is) I was attracted to #1 instantly. However after listening over and over they started to blend. But my first impression was #1 was the one I liked. I only listened to the Mp3's through PC speakers. After I finish this reading thread I will d/l the good files and listen through my monitors.

PS good song!
Old 17th July 2005
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Goler
man... that's bad, very bad idea IMHO....

good material > mixing > nicerizer > ready > masteing > garbage

In fact, you can safely sell both the API box and Nicerizer if you're going for the kind of mastering.
I have not heard either #1 or #2 yet but I am interested in knowing why you say the above??
Old 17th July 2005
  #134
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
I have not heard either #1 or #2 yet but I am interested in knowing why you say the above??
Initially, i wanted to say someting similar, but don't want to insult anyone here...

I downloaded all AIF and WAV files ---> retributions 1 and 2 sound quite
intriguing....

The song itself, as a composition, is worldclass. I like the tune a lot !

The playing, arranging, and the mix are way to linear ---> not enough dynamics
over the whole form ---> i.e. there is no shift of feeling between the stanzas.

The drums are the weakest at first listening, it's a dead man playing.
The sound design (rhodes) should be re-made to worldclass level.

The Master is basically just crancked up, of course you can call the
guy who did that mastering a good engineer, but when you listen
by your heart, what that song could be... ooooh oh

If this song is not given away, please let me know, i have a production
in a couple of weeks with a band in Florida, where this song may fit.

Sorry UBIK, you didn't ask for this type of comment, but here he is.

.
Old 18th July 2005
  #135
Gear Maniac
 

Sorry, I did not want to insult anyone in any way. Just my view on things. I was rather speaking in general taking this only as example.
Old 18th July 2005
  #136
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Goler
Sorry, I did not want to insult anyone in any way. Just my view on things. I was rather speaking in general taking this only as example.
I still don't get it
Old 18th July 2005
  #137
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
I still don't get it
I don't get it eather. If it is hi-end sound you're trying to atchieve with your hi-end gear why then ruin it by squashing dynamics and making it harsh, no headroom no breath no life? I bet you woldn't find much of a difference if it was mix2 that got mastered in the same way. It's like tracking with carefuly chosen 10K pres and mics and then master it with something like "radio" preset in Finalizer - creazy if you ask me. Not that Finalizer was used in this particular case but you get my point. The mastering engeneer indeed could be a very good one but I feel there's something worng with reasoning here.

If it isn't clear: I was speaking about mastered version of the song. Seriously, I'd feel very pissed off about my work and gear with this kind of result. I understand that it's market and everything but c'mon, this way you simpy ruin your hi-end expertise.
Old 18th July 2005
  #138
Not like it matters anymore but i liked mix 1 overall.

Mix 2 even though it had more cohesiveness has the ITB bottomn that i can't stand.

I think the mastered one is a little too hollow in the mids even though it gives the drums more presence.

The sound reminds a little bit of the crushed sound of Snow Patrol/Massive Attack minus the tricks.
Old 18th July 2005
  #139
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

y'know what's missing from this thread? the female perspective. because really, for as much as i love you guys, when i start touring this album i'm gonna want a certain demographic hanging around backstage after the show, busting at the seams to, uh, tell me how amazing my album sounds.

so what i REALLY want to know is, does franka potente prefer itb or otb? i think i know the answer to that one...


gregoire
del ubik
Attached Thumbnails
At Last:  Nicerizer 16 vs. ITB  (aif's & mp3's)-franka.jpg  
Old 18th July 2005
  #140
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Super Yums
Old 18th July 2005
  #141
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
I would like franka potente in the box! definiteley!
Old 18th July 2005
  #142
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
back on topic, there is an interesting observation I have made. I know that if I had been presented this AB comparison say 6-7 years ago, I would not have been able to tell which mix is the "better" mix for me. I went through a phase where I tried to listen very technically, trying to analyze every little thing I was hearing. now after a lot of years of experience I have returned to being able to hear emotionally again, just like the average listener percieves music. listening that way, I can clearly recognize that mix1 is better to me than mix2, and I was just concentrating on the vocals, not even really picking the entire thing apart...
It seems to me that most other people who prefer mix1 are people with a pretty long listening experience - am I right here? I would like to know for how many years everybody here has been doing audio engineering on a professional level!
So let´s start with me, I preferred mix1 and have been an audio engineer for 10 years.

Rock on!
Pat
Old 18th July 2005
  #143
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I have relativley no listening experience from an engineers POV. I'm merely a musician. Track 1 (as I honestly posted earlier) grabbed me more than track 2. The only thing is that I can't tell you why - if I was an engineer I probabl;y would be able to communicate it to you. Funny thing is, I listened only to the mp3's through PC speakers.

Just for the record, it isn't that I didn't like track 2 - I thought is was great - BUT the question was posed.
Old 19th July 2005
  #144
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
so what i REALLY want to know is, does franka potente prefer itb or otb? i think i know the answer to that one...


gregoire
del ubik
certainly IN THE BOX [if ya know what i mean ]



15 years here.... i dont see how that matters. you either can listen critically or you dont. as to what your preference is, is entirely individual. listening to it generally isnt going to yield much difference.... generally, you will find more difference of listeners opinions between various mixers and how they mixed it rather than how the mix was summed.
Old 19th July 2005
  #145
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
generally, you will find more difference of listeners opinions between various mixers and how they mixed it rather than how the mix was summed.

true that. and even moreso --- much, MUCH moreso --- the listener's opinion will be almost exclusively focused on whether or not they dig the tune, and for most listeners that comes down to the harmonic content and the singer.

i forget that sometimes.

one thing this whole exercise has been a powerful reminder of: no one thing pleases everyone, and any one thing is at best likely to please 50%. and any change made to improve it for one person will ruin it for another.

and so, as before, i press onward with what works for me, and am glad everyone else is doing the same.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 19th July 2005
  #146
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
true that. and even moreso --- much, MUCH moreso --- the listener's opinion will be almost exclusively focused on whether or not they dig the tune, and for most listeners that comes down to the harmonic content and the singer.

i forget that sometimes.

one thing this whole exercise has been a powerful reminder of: no one thing pleases everyone, and any one thing is at best likely to please 50%. and any change made to improve it for one person will ruin it for another.

and so, as before, i press onward with what works for me, and am glad everyone else is doing the same.


gregoire
del ubik

Well done G
thumbsup
Old 19th July 2005
  #147
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

ubik.... summing aside [it didnt matter to me in the test].... how about since now that you have a nice straighfoward mix, how about one a bit ore "out there" and really vibey? and if you do that, id try easing off the 2buss comp a bit.... or decreasing its attack time [or ratio], something is sounding funny [oddly it might be partically the summing box since i notice these bad artifacts on mix 1 than two, and REALLY get in the way on the mastered version].... and in mastering, dont just make it louder to be louder... [which is odd for me to say that cause i typically LOVE hypercomrpression... but not in this style], normalizing would of been FINE with this mix just to bring the levels up w/o losing that dynamic you had between the intro and louder parts.

personally, i would like to be more subtle ear candy with some elements in the mix. some automation of those elements. SOMETHING on the vox in certain places. also, too many dry elements in this, especially that guitar to the right gets a bit annoying after a while [maybe add something to that, like a phaser on the other side or back it off when the vox comes in]. maybe add some noise to that drum loop? be a little more dynamic with those "strings" as the verses pick up. maybe some swelling reverbs as the vox end out and swelling to some of the other elements going into the dropouts...


curiously, do you own portishead 'dummy'?


its a cool song with a lot of potential but i dont think its "there" yet with the mix. too static.
Old 26th September 2005
  #148
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I downloaded this a while ago, but never listened...

with all the crap about these summing boxes, I wondered why no one ever posted anything...if it sounds good, it is good...

then I remembered this...

I listened....first impression, no difference at all....listened some more....no difference...then I started to notice that mix 1 was a little more open, a little clearer...so I picked mix 1 as being slightly better...

turns out thats the Nicerizer...

I didn't want to pick out the summing box one, but I did....barely...

still, judging from the votes favoring mix 2 from the listeners on this thread, which is made up of engineers intent on picking out the better sound, I can't imagine in a million years the average listener caring for a millisecond about any difference between this ITB mix and this OTB mix....

My 2 cents on this whole summing box deal...

Thanks for the test ubik!
Old 26th September 2005
  #149
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tomdarude's Avatar
actually i sat next to franka on a cozy couch in a cafe in berlin once !!!
she´s so cute ;-)
actually not that romantic looking as in that pic....bit tougher, but really NICE girl !!


how the hack does a NY´er come to know franka potente ???

cheers tom
Old 26th September 2005
  #150
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TheSweetener's Avatar
 

I just listened to the AIFs for the first time. I downloaded them at the beginning of this thread so they should be the unmastered ones.

First I had the same impression as some of you, there was nor real difference.
But only until I came to the chorus and (even more spectacular) till the last part with the solo guitar left and the rhodes right.
There's such a huge difference in space. The ITB mix sounds like 80% panned left/right compared to the Nicerizer. I did not expect that.
Otherwise I did not hear much difference in tone or glue.

Perhaps this song is not the best to test the summing qualities. I think it becomes the more audible the more tracks you have and this mix is not very dense.

Good mix, nice song by the way!
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