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Tried summing NOT Impressed
Old 13th July 2005
  #31
Gear Addict
 

my take on it
analog in, there's no substitute for good mic's, mic pres compressors eq's

but in the mixxing stage, i find using plug-ins helps us be a lot more subtle with dynamics
Old 13th July 2005
  #32
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wallace's Avatar
 

What is the purpose for the left/right buttons on the folcrom. Is it that if it's only one of them then you can only pan hard to that side? Is there a drawback to having both pushed in?

Is there a big difference with turning down your tracks ITB and then boosting the preamp more (vs. having the preamp quieter)? What are your favorite gain ratios?
Old 13th July 2005
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vudoo
I find bypassing the plug-ins made a big difference, especially for drums and bass.
I'm still summing ITB but use inserts from my 192 i/o along with my outboards EQ/comps for drums and bass and have been satisfied with the results.
But i must admit that after being used to working ITB for a while, having to recall analog equipment is a REAL pita.

I'm doing this, especially run through external compressors like real 1176s and Distressors. I just haven't found a plugin compressor that can really cut it when you need something fast without SQUISH.


Nick
Old 13th July 2005
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallace
What is the purpose for the left/right buttons on the folcrom. Is it that if it's only one of them then you can only pan hard to that side? Is there a drawback to having both pushed in?

LEFT BUTTON = only left
RIGHT BUTTON = only right
BOTH PUSHED = center pan

If you want odd panning in the stereo field (like overheads for instance at 10 and 2 o'clock), then you have to use two channels.


Quote:
Is there a big difference with turning down your tracks ITB and then boosting the preamp more (vs. having the preamp quieter)?

You mean when using a Folcrom? I wouldn't push the D/A's extremely hard in any situation...I think at full scale most D/A's are pushing something like +28? That's too hot for the sweet spot of most analog gear.


Quote:
What are your favorite gain ratios?
??
Old 14th July 2005
  #35
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wallace's Avatar
 

Thanks Nathan. I've got some more questions, but I might put them in another post.
Old 14th July 2005
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomichael
With Protools HD and 192's, the difference is WAAAAY less noticable than with the ProTools Mix system. I think HD is the box isn't too bad.



You are implying that summing with better converters is worse than summing with lesser converters, right ?




This must be the weirdest post about ITB vs analog summing I have ever seen ...

Keep up the good work pal heh
Old 14th July 2005
  #37
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I think the comment is regarding the internal bus architecture in the new hd versus the old mix. Supposedly the design is of a higher rate thus improving sound....
Old 15th July 2005
  #38
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TML
I think the comment is regarding the internal bus architecture in the new hd versus the old mix. Supposedly the design is of a higher rate thus improving sound....
People think this summing stuff is somehow fixing bad math. It's not. It's adding analog tone.

-R
Old 15th July 2005
  #39
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

its adding analog phase shift and distortion... i guess you call that tone?
Old 15th July 2005
  #40
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After spending more time with the folcrom...I'm beginning to realize how much crap some plugs add ....i should sell it all for a api 1604 and a radar.......an outboard autotune and a finalizer...........
Old 15th July 2005
  #41
no ssl yet
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???

How is the folcrum making you realize what plugs add???
Old 15th July 2005
  #42
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taking plugs off certain channels to sum...putting analog gear between ....for the sake of speed I'll use some plugs...but there's not getting over real compression.....experimenting with the sum has reinforced this fact....
Old 15th July 2005
  #43
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
its adding analog phase shift and distortion... i guess you call that tone?
yes barrett, i call that tone.

-R
Old 15th July 2005
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TML
an outboard autotune and a finalizer...........
You were doing so good until that line
Old 15th July 2005
  #45
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max cooper's Avatar
 

There's a really funny article about summing on Digi's website where they defend the accuracy of their summing 'math' as being more accurate than analog summing could ever be. Didn't anyone tell them that it's the accuracy that's making people buy analog summing devices?
Old 15th July 2005
  #46
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper
There's a really funny article about summing on Digi's website where they defend the accuracy of their summing 'math' as being more accurate than analog summing could ever be. Didn't anyone tell them that it's the accuracy that's making people buy analog summing devices?
For a long time the "conventional" wisdom going around was that you needed outboard summing because the PT math didn't have enough resolution or was inaccurate or somehow got stressed with a high track count. There was a long paper put out by one of the original summing box designers that tried to make this point as the rationale for their box. The Digi paper corrected this misinformation, and I think for most people it's a dead issue.

The issue does have design repercussions. If your summing box is designed to be totally transparent and attempt to be even more accurate than Protools then it probably won't bring anything to the party. I think the most successful boxes will be the ones that impart the most appealing tone, or what Alphajerk calls analog phase shift and distortion.

-R
Old 15th July 2005
  #47
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
its adding analog phase shift and distortion... i guess you call that tone?

not all phase shift and /or distortion has a pleasing tone, but everything i have that imparts pleasing tone does add phase shift and/or distortion. transformers and tape are the first things that come to my mind.

and api eq. mmmmmm......


gregoire
del ubik
Old 15th July 2005
  #48
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
not all phase shift and /or distortion has a pleasing tone, but everything i have that imparts pleasing tone does add phase shift and/or distortion. transformers and tape are the first things that come to my mind.

and api eq. mmmmmm......


gregoire
del ubik
Don't forget guitar amplifiers.

And hitting a big metal cymbal with a stick.

Leslie cabinets.

Any microphone.

Moving while you listen to speakers.

Laughing.

Putting the ocean in motion.

-R
Old 16th July 2005
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
yes barrett, i call that tone.

-R

Like a good guitar amp....same thing in a lot of ways really. It's the flaws that make it so good.
Old 16th July 2005
  #50
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GYang's Avatar
Well, I can reveal one of my secrets of good tone we reached in some of the best tracks we did.
We tracked acoustic guitars or guitars or drums (not all) in room (out of studio)that is not completely isolated from outer noise (it does not mean to have high street noise floor) let say similar to noise floor of quiet living room without any apparent or distinct sound source. The sound of instrument recorded together with such live, but low level noise floor (that can be called distortion in some sense) yields extremely pleasant track that breath life to whole mix.
The room in place where (controlable to some extent) natural low noise exists without some loud occasional peaks typical for our usual environment is what I'll do next for adding 'natural distortion' to some tracks.


GYang
Old 16th July 2005
  #51
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang
Well, I can reveal one of my secrets of good tone we reached in some of the best tracks we did.

that's essentially the same "secret" at work with analog tape and rack gear: the piling up of hiss creates a subtle 'space' for the music to live in and very much adds to the illusion of depth, because on some level the brain hears something mysterious behind everything.

mystery = good.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 16th July 2005
  #52
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
the piling up of hiss creates a subtle 'space' for the music to live in and very much adds to the illusion of depth, because on some level the brain hears something mysterious behind everything.

mystery = good.

gregoire
del ubik
Should be true
Old 16th July 2005
  #53
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kosi's Avatar
James Joyce : what is clear and concise can’t deal with reality, for to be real is to be surrounded by mystery.
Old 16th July 2005
  #54
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mr.gefell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
that's essentially the same "secret" at work with analog tape and rack gear: the piling up of hiss creates a subtle 'space' for the music to live in and very much adds to the illusion of depth, because on some level the brain hears something mysterious behind everything.

mystery = good.


gregoire
del ubik

QFT!







( qouted for truth)
Old 16th July 2005
  #55
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hey, one of the best [A/D sum bus pre] threads here!

analog gear, esp. live PA, pre's and desks have gone through tremendous development und cultural influence. analog has a "natural", controlled compromise on sound. also after all the evolution, it reflects the natural perception of "being at the limit", that is the point particularly in rock. you want to be on the edge.

digital transfers "as is". an all the saturators and vintage emulators are about the perception of "edge", in human words, that more would be too much.

engineers have developed different perceptions and techniques, which is of course the soul of technical recording and producing. as long as the topic exists, some will be happy with all digital, others will rely on analog chains in the process.....

i expect the development of sufficient "edge" emulators quite soon. it will be a big family of plugs, to the different tastes, including snake oil convolutors. heh
Old 16th July 2005
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
its adding analog phase shift and distortion... i guess you call that tone?

Not my analog console. Less than 10 degrees phase shift at 20k and it's linear phase shift. Bass phase shift is under 2 degrees. THD+noise is -105 db, IMD is around .0002%, stereo crosstalk is -90 db. Plus it has depth.

When ITB can approach these results I may give it a go, until then it's analog mixing.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 16th July 2005
  #57
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
Not my analog console. Less than 10 degrees phase shift at 20k and it's linear phase shift. Bass phase shift is under 2 degrees. THD+noise is -105 db, IMD is around .0002%, stereo crosstalk is -90 db. Plus it has depth.

When ITB can approach these results I may give it a go, until then it's analog mixing.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
so im wondering if people hjere would call your console as having "tone".... my guess is no. although i would probably like it more than what others like here.

i fully understand TONE and its place, but i try to get my TONE well before the summing comes into play.... but to each his own.

so enlighten me, what do you think ITB's specs are as far as phase shift, its dynamic range, and stereo [or interchannel] cross talk is? strictly speaking summing.

depth is a user error, not a ITB error.


and HISS? [re:above] god i hate hiss. that is probably the biggest downfall of tape for my use. i LOVE the digital blackness.... it makes things so much deeper to my ears.
Old 16th July 2005
  #58
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Like you say, Barrett, to each is own.

Get it where you can.


-R
Old 16th July 2005
  #59
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ImJohn's Avatar
Sorry if this has been discussed already and I missed it but has anyone compared not only a mix done solely in-the-box and one done through a Folcum/Dangerous summer plus mic pre but also a mix done in-the-box and THEN run through a mic pre with no summing box inbetween?

I'm just wondering if its the mic pre that is really the component that is making the obvious difference and the analog summing box is more or less a smoke 'n mirrors middle man.
Old 17th July 2005
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImJohn
Sorry if this has been discussed already and I missed it but has anyone compared not only a mix done solely in-the-box and one done through a Folcum/Dangerous summer plus mic pre but also a mix done in-the-box and THEN run through a mic pre with no summing box inbetween?

I'm just wondering if its the mic pre that is really the component that is making the obvious difference and the analog summing box is more or less a smoke 'n mirrors middle man.

If you go out of a D/A into a mic preamp it's asking for trouble IMO. You'll need to pad it, and there is probably a pretty deep impedance mismatch going on (a 10K ohm load going into a 300-1200 ohm load? Is that about right techies? But hey, some of the vintage line level stuff was at 600ohms). Anyway, I think by doing what you are talking about is just putting icing on a brussell sprout. Analog summing or an analog console creates automatic depth and width. To me it's not even subtle. I don't know why or how and won't even begin to speculate, but as an empirical experience the D/A into a color box doesn't do the same thing (it's not just about adding distortion, this is a big point). Tape also adds to the dimensionality and depth. Sure it's got some hiss (at +9 though it's almost undetectable). The latest 2 projects I'm in the process of mixing, were recorded to tape, and are mixed to tape. I'm getting sounds like never before, even compared to with just really great conversion (i.e. no tape). The hiss is only a problem on very low level parts. I've been printing them seperately to the two track, and hotter, and then pasting them back together in digital editing. Works great.
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