welcome back Resonater! thought we lost you there! so when will you be up and running?

You can't turn a screw without a screwdriver, hammer a nail without a hammer.
(That would be Equipment). Skill (Knowledge). Credits (Resume). That is life, if you want to succeed. Weird and uncomfortable? I would say they are good business men owning the proaudio world. Do I like like Protools? yes. Would I invest only in their system? no. I am fine just using them as a hard disk recorder.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

this is a wonderful solution for a lot of guys, i'm just not one of them. don't i still have to bank switch? i like a fixed location for each element; over here is the snare, right there is the nylon string. little pieces of white tape with sharpie letters excite me. i can reach for the fader and it's right there where it was before. mixing with muscle memory frees up my mind, whereas banks of channels engage my mind in a distracting way.

and then there's the *real* issue for me... in my scenario, i have a 550b or daking or fearn on every channel, in yours, i have a plug-in.

that feels important. i'm getting great work done with the plugs, but that last 15% doesn't seem accessible with them. i have a penchant for the tone of actual flowing electrons.

in truth, i do hold the hope and the belief that digital is not too far away from matching analog. i give it 5 years, 10 max. until then, though, i miss the console, and will be rebuilding it in the modular rack paradigm.


gregoire
del ubik

depends how big an icon you get.

IMHO that's where the real problem lies - not so much with banking.

and i hate to admit this, but the icon's looks just don't do it for me. if it were sexah (fat bastardism)... i might think twice.

Well, yes and no.

In your scenario, you have a 550b or daking or fearn on every channel. Spread across a 72 channel mix and you have easily $75k-$150k in eq's alone! To me, that's unrealistic unless we're talking about simply dreaming. Yes, I'd like to spend $150k to have great eq on every channel, but I have to make some realisitic business decisions and that would be difficult to justify to the labels to whom we cater.

Secondly, is it unrealistic to feel that you use eq plugs for certain things, with a bank of great outboard eq (Massive Passive, Fearn, GML, API, etc) for use on certain other things? After all, in the hybrid world, once you tweak your kick drum and you feel comfortable with it through the Fearn, record it back to PT and now the Fearn can serve duty on the vocal chain, etc....and later the bass chain, etc. And when you're mixing on an SSL, you tend to use the SSL eq for most channels anyway, again only using your Fearn on the very special tracks, etc.

As far as you wanting a fixed position for each channel (nylon over here, snare over there), well, to each his own. I do not feel that eq'ing your snare track, which could be 8' over that way, while *OUTSIDE* the range of your stereo speakers is the way to go. For you, perhaps, but not me. I want to make all of my critical decisions in the sweet spot. I believe that this has been a long time coming for us engineers. And I really do want to sit in the sweet spot and eq everything right there. I think this will lead to better decisions.

Raal, my Icon was set up late last week, but the PT rig that goes with it is currently serving in my other room editing another project which is under a tight deadline. Thus, while it looks beautiful, I haven't been able to play around yet. Ahhhhh. I expect the room to be really complete (with all analog wiring, etc) sometime in September. Should be lots of fun!

The more I read the more it looks like Digi will be the standard in consoles- controllers with the Icon just like they replaced the tape machine in most studios with Pro tools hardware .

Truth.

But what I was taking issue with is this;

"Since the boom of home recording, most musicians believe they are engineers, and have mastered Protools. The 3 things that seperates them from a select few is equipment, skill and credits. "

Sorry dude but skill is numero uno on the list of things that seperates a real engineer from someone who can mearly get the job done with mediocre results.

If the engineer (or musician or whatever) has real knowledge and real skill, then the word will get out...credits and work will find them.

Equipment no longer seperates the men from the mice. It's all too easy to go out and buy a bunch of gear and make ****ty records. If you have a big enough limit on your credit card you can buy a "studio" or more truthfully, a studios worth of gear in one shot but not have ANY clue how to get musical results from it. I remember standing in Guitarget one time and a guy walked in said "Yo, I'm a producer! What do I need to buy?" The Guitarget sales guy sold him $25K worth of gear without even blinking, I swear...the whole thing went down in about 45 minutes.

Acoustics and the rooms seperate the masses from the select few. The good engineers work in good sounding rooms that don't tell sonic lies and enable them to do better work with their better equipment. Most home recordists will never have the chance to work in a well-designed space and that's a real drag because I think it's hugely important. Even if you can't afford to build a world class room, you can steal and borrow ideas and the reality is that it's mostly physics and those laws don't change.

please keep us posted!

the future is here

http://www.supersonicstudios.com/

Hello Guys,

I am glad other fine studios such as crystalphonix also see the future and are
joining us in the next wave of world class studios.

Anyone who argues with this may have a point but I can assure you
we are on the right track and the benefits far outnumber the theoretical setbacks
those skeptical may cite. I guess only time will tell. Who want's to mix with two consoles at a time anyway. As if it wasn't hard enough to do it with one.

For the moment I can tell you there is no other place in the world that I can think
of where I can do my job with the freedom I have at Supersonic. The routing possibilities are almost unimaginable, the monitoring is second to none and the vibe is great.

That might be the reason we have been booked solid since January and there seem to be no stop in it (at least for the foreseeable future). Some of the work is starting to be published like the current #1 Shakira record. All the clients have left static about place and some have even book the room just to listen and showcase their projects because of the accurate monitoring.

ABOUT THE HYBRID CONCEPT (To all the people that has been asking me over email):

I have been perfecting this hybrid studio idea for the last eight years at my home studio until it became too large and I had to move it into it's new incarnation, Supersonic Studio 1. Little by little I added analog gear and more interfaces until I maxed out the system at it's current 96 I/O limitation.

Four factors were pivotal for me to even consider opening a major facility:

1) ACOUSTICS (Trust me eventually you are going to need more than a garage and some foam)

2) ADC (Critical if you want to do the tricks we all love. Specially in the analog domain)

3) A GOOD CONTROLLER (To put a face to an otherwise invisible console so it can have the look and feel I was used to)

4) FRUSTRATION (Being very frustrated with the limitations of the old world class studios and how super sloooooow they can be at times)

Everybody and their mothers told me I was crazy to go into the studio business but this is what I love.


For more info on my hybrid design please read these articles:

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_supersonic_studios/

http://www.gcpro.com/feature_0904_supersonic.html

http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/d...dio/index.html


I thank you for your nice thoughts. I love greaslutz. This is a great place to be. Keep
up the good work guys.


Best Regards
Gustavo Celis
www.supersonicstudios.com

Again, a bit of my point is being missed again... I am not using plug-ins instead of outboard. I have tons of outboard, and I'm integrating it in a mix session the same way I integrated it with the SSL. I agree that certain plug-ins lack what hardware can give you, and I am making up that difference quite easily.

That being said, there is another side to this that I haven't mentioned earlier: The concept of "fixed" technology versus "dynamic." An SSL analog console is basically a "fixed medium," in that you are purchasing something that does what it does, will always perform that function, and do it well. Again, I'm not arguing about the quality of SSL desks--I owned one, I believe in the company, and their products are excellent. However, what you purchase will not change unless you sell it and buy something else.

The Icon (as well as the SSL C200 digital console), are dynamic technology, since they are linked to software (the C200 basically is a controller that runs "SSL plug-ins"). The Icon can change over time, as Digidesign updates the software and adds more functions (as can the C200). Now, here's the big difference for me: The Icon is tied to Digi hardware, and the C200 is tied to SSL hardware. Both are expandable (buy more 192's or Apogee's, or buy more I/O for the C200). An upside to the D Control is that Digi includes the recording software, ProTools--and aside from hardware I/O and engine power additions on the C200, you still need a recorder. A comparable system in D Control versus C200: $100K less or more. So, I'm of the opinion that the "$90,000 mouse" is a bargain. But then, I have a bigger commercial studio, so I have a completely different viewpoint. I don't think most independent producers / engineers should put a D Control in their house--it's made for the big rooms, and the price reflects that. I, however, can't wait to install one at home, despite the price!

I have a different viewpoint on "one fader for one thing" as well. It doesn't excite me. Sliding the chair down from one end to the other, completely missing the sweet spot when EQ'ing important effects returns or stems on extreme left or right channels, well... sucks. The ability to hit a button and focus something important to one fader channel right in the middle is incredible (you can do this on the C200 as well, very cool). But the thing that really sold me on the D Control, above all else: after a couple button presses, every knob and fader on the mixer became controls for Virus Indigo... the freakin' software synth was mapped out all over the desk, so you could just grab a knob and tweak a filter, LFO, whatever. That's not distracting to me, that's exciting. To know that my world can change that fast keeps me thrilled to mix on that desk.

Also, in the "dynamic technology" realm, those "terrible" plug-ins are only going to get better. As dynamic convolution sampling matures (Sintefex, Waves Q Clone), you're going to see a lot of plug ins that dramatically alter the landscape in terms of sounding like vintage hardware. I'm against this, in a way, because I don't like the concept of trying to recreate something that once was. I like plug-ins or new technology to do something completely different. If I want a vintage Neve for EQ, I'll go buy a vintage Neve for EQ. In an EQ plug-in, I want something that sounds absolutely accurate, gives me many bands of precise parametric control, can be run linear phase, and has extra features like dynamic EQ'ing or resonating filters, etc.

There is another aspect going on here: human nature. It's human nature to attack "the big guy," or the thing that you don't understand: Digidesign takes over the world with ProTools, and becomes the industry standard. Old school guys who try mixing "in the box" hate it because their mixes take twice as long, as they are hypnotized by the screen, which totally distracts them from the creative aspects of their work. Digidesign then builds a big desk that has the footprint of the old school desks, and gives the old school guys the ability to turn off the screen and mix within the console itself, just like the old school desks. And they respond with, "**** that thing, it's a big mouse."

I seek to understand something before I judge it... I have to use it or hear it myself first, and I don't rely on other people's opinions to form my own. I don't mind going against the grain when I have a different opinion, but I would never even consider attacking something (or speaking positively about it, for that matter) unless I have had the time and experience on it to really speak with clarity. I've used or owned most of what's out there by now, so I have a lot of opinions, but I didn't judge the D Control until I sat down in front of it and tried it myself.

Anyway, all just my opinion...

-Kevin McNoldy
Crystalphonic Recording Studio
www.crystalphonic.com

Look at me, posting right after Gustavo in reply to earlier stuff. A bit got lost there, as I was starting off negatively after your wonderful post.

Supersonic looks amazing, and I'm sure it sounds every bit as good as it looks. You and I are on exactly the same wavelength here, and I applaud your forward-thinking design.

The 96 I/O limitiation is really the only downside to our rig right now--I'm sure the I/O will be expanded in a future update of ProTools, and I want more!! Whether through a patchbay system or through direct wiring, the ability to have each piece of equipment have a one-to-one relationship with the I/O's is very important, in my opinion.

Thanks for posting, and beautiful studio you have there!

-Kevin McNoldy
Crystalphonic Recording Studio
www.crystalphonic.com

Kevin

I second all that.

Cheers

supersonics why did you put it in an industrial park so far from the beach ... if had you done it in South Beach you would never have one moment of down time and you rates could have been almost whatever you wanted to charge ... you have a great place but the location is the part I do not understand ?????????

Lenny is putting in a studio right on the beach and it will be THE spot overnight and it will not compare to your room ... location,,, location,,, location ...

Again you built a masterpiece but most people want to stay in South Beach to work if they can and dread having to leave the beach when they are in Miami ... I think that is why Hit Factory Circle house and all the rest have so much down time .. if any of those places were on the beach they would be off the hook ... I watch major people work at South Beach Studios in the Marlin and that place is trash but they work there becuase of location ..

Hello,

Once again I want to thank everybody for the nice comments.

Regarding the location it was a conscientious decision based on the following:

1) It really isn't a problem at all if you make records everyday and actually need a quiet place where a world class artist can camp out for a few months without any distractions. It allows you to get real work done and focus on the most important thing. That is if you want to make music that sounds great and has a great vibe.
I don't know about the others but I usually work really intense hours and don't have a lot of time to go to the club. Like most of my clients who excel at what they do because they are driven and extremely focused.

2) I want to be in business in years to come even when times are tough, you just can't do that on South Beach with the current real state frenzy and prices going thru the roof. Overhead, overhead, overhead is what I say. Keep it low=last long.

3) If you are a producer in Stockholm and are thinking about doing your next project
on the beach you'll be a hell of a lot closer at Supersonic than back home. Joke!

Anyway we are only 15 minutes away from South Beach (at night) and honestly it hasn't even come up with our clients. On the contrary some have commented on how happy they are to be away from the chaos and traffic of the beach.

Also I'm not a huge corp like The Setai Hotel that can afford to loose money just to
attract celebs to justify their room rates.

I hope this explains it.

Best regards

Gustavo Celis
www.supersonicstudios.com

Thanks Gustavo, great to have you on board.

i am very curious about using the analog outboard as inserts in protools...

I understand exactly how it works but never tested the way i want it to be ,meaning with PT HD3 core card ( or HD5 in the case of supersonic ) and good converters like the 16X AD/DA...

Is there no latency?? you would have an additional DA/AD conversion for every "insert" u open...

Hybrid has always seemed to me like the right thing to do in our times of technological advances...
So All you guys that have experimented with that, feedback would be appreciated on all angles of the topic since i know i probably missed other possible problems and angles etc...

1. The AD / DA path. If using analog inserts you can ask Pro Tools to compensate for the AD path / the DA path or both. It's a user preference in your I/O setup.

2. in case of a analog insert, yes there is a DA / AD path. Why worry about that? I know I don't and I'm sure most of us don't. The reason we want to use our analog outboard is because we like the way it sounds. I'll do 10 extra AD/DA's if it will improve the sound.

3. Inserts in Pro Tools can be analog or digital so you can just as well have digital inserts. I use some of the system 6000 engines as digital inserts for example.

In all it's a matter of setting up your I/O the way it's most convenient for you. I/O settings can be stored / loaded / changed in a matter of seconds in most situations

Man.......being far from the beach might be a good thing during a certain season of the year If you know what I mean. Water and electronics don't mix.

and Gustavo, do u cats use the 96 interfaces much, it says you have six of them. I have some Of Juvenile's original songs on 4-track cassette .....lol


http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/paststate.shtml
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/A1.html

Not disagreeing. That was not necessarily the order. I am pointing out that even a good song can make (engineers,producers,mixers) sound better, and skill can't take all the credit. That would just be too arrogant.

There is one mixer that comes to mind, probably one of the most well known, his room is so small (in depth) that his big monitors are not usable. He mixes off NS-10's on an old SSL. He just knows his room, and he is very skilled.

As far as gear, just buying it takes some knowledge, if you listen to the guy at Guitar Center you are in big trouble.


www.bluethumbproductions.com

with you 100%.

respectfully beg to differ here. though i have a bunch of real pultecs and neve EQs, i'm buying QClone this week. (got an ATTY to be able to adjust output vs. input on the pultecs - can't wait to see if QClone can actually sound like the real thing - 90/95% isn't good enough). the immediate advantage would be instant recall. recalling a bunch pultecs, neves, etc. doesn't appeal to me much.

if/when some plug can actually substitute a hardware box, i'll be all over it. haven't seen that yet though. looking forward to seeing if the TC 6000 plugs will be = to the 6000 box.

ahh, yes, i concede your points fully. somewhere in this discussion i lost sight of the fact that we've been addressing the situation for large scale commercial facilities.

i've never done a 72 track mix, and i hope i never will ... closest i've come is 52 tracks, and it was an arrangement nightmare. cello, double bass, detuned acoustics, lower octave b3, so much competition!

these days my mixes have come back to the ~24 track zone, and i love it. i take your point, i believe 12 channels of superb eq and 8 of superb compression would more than do it for me, with plug-ins filling in the gaps. i've known and accepted for years now that plug-ins are the future, and have faith that one day they'll be as satisfying as old school hardware.

i'm psyched for you getting your setup, it sounds really f***ng exciting! i do very much appreciate those who push into the forefront with faith in their vision; it's because of guys like you and others on this thread that the envelope gets refined and ultimately i reap the rewards of that.

now, if someone would just make a little sintefex version of a 24-channel 70's api, complete with those funky hexagonal knobs on the faders...


gregoire
del ubik

That would be nice, although, I don't think all those caps, resistors, rectifiers, transformers, transistors and what have you are made the same anymore.
Probably would be quieter, but not as good.

www.bluethumbproductions.com

This is part of the reason i went back to mixing on an analog console the extra conversion that is being done.

And as neutral as people say it is, to me going throught the extra converters still colors your sound.

Your mixes take the sound of the converters which kinda nullifies the idea of using the outboard gear for giving it a different character.


Fixed medium?

Can you add tracks/channels on the fly in PT with out stopping it?

How about if you need more auxes on the fly?




How about changing outputs to re route them and do a complex bussing or aux routing?


You can do all these things on an SSL without stopping the flow of the mix which when mixing is a big deal.

If i get the sudden idea or the client and i want to use X on a vocal to make it sexy while a client Y is vibing to their mix i just patch and voila they think you are a genius.

Working in PT you still have to stop it and the reaction is usually ?

Why did you kill the vibe?



The other aspect is it continously takes out the participation of the client.

It continues to isolate the mixer by himself more which again is another aspect which i feel has added to lack of musiciality in todays music.

Basically the Icon is setup for the operator...not the client.

I mix for certain producers that want to do their own mute cuts and fader rides.

The Icon is just not intuitive enough for them.

They like the feel of big mute buttons and solid faders.

Sometimes they wack the mute buttons so hard its ungodly.

one thought I had about working in PT with lots of outboard VS. using a desk is recall. How do you manage recall on all that outboard? Doesn't it really take just as long as using an SSL or VR? Most of the guys I know that use SSL use SOME outboard, for specials, but it's not like you have to recall 16 to 32 channels of EQ's with nothing but maybe polaroids to guide you...

plug ins... yeah recall to tweek in no time flat.

lots of outboard VS a console with dynamics and recall?

I dunno... not sure you'd save all that much time.

just a 2AM thought
Mark Burris

I live a little outside the box, but I rarely worry about having to recall mixes to 100%.

The way I see it, if I missed the boat and need to do a remix it's because the mix is really wonky and needs to be totally redone. I wouldn't recall a mix 100% just to make 1 or 1.5dB tweaks. IMHO, the balances change more then that when the song hits mastering. That can start a really endless cycle of recalling mixes and the cost vs. time vs. final outcome just doesn't pay off in most cases.

Granted, I've done massive recalls and taken notes for some projects where things like that might come up but I don't take recall notes as a general rule.

i can understand why you want your analog gear on its own i/o but wouldnt you also want a good patchbay to go analog>analog rather than insert>insert [DAC>gear>ADC>DAC>gear>ADC, etc]

or is that the way you will work it?

In my studio, there will be an analog patch bay, which will connect all of the A/D and D/A to the analog gear. Using a bay will allow for chains of analog equipment without the need for multiple conversions.

Thrill, convertors can have *identities*, so I will eventually offer Digidesign, Lavry Blue, Lavry Gold, Apogee AD16x/DA16x, Cranesong HEDD, Urie 2192 and any others that engineers may prefer. You choose your chains. And you didn't mention that mixing on an SSL or a Neve produces a very identifiable sonic identity of its own, and you're not going to get an SSL to sound like a Trident A-Range or vice versa. I believe that by offering a multitude of signal path possibilities, including GML, API, Chandler, etc, etc., you're actually able to bring a greater palette of sound in the hybrid environment.

In response to handling recalls in the hybrid environment, why not simply RECORD your final paths into PT after finishing the mix? In most cases, this will suffice for any recalls to be done if adequate documentation hasn't been taken.

Thrill, in response to stopping and starting PT and thus, killing the vibe, this is a current limitation to PT. Presumably, as PT continues to develop as a platform, such limitations will disappear. However, focusing on such limitations doesn't negate severe limitations in SSL work. For instance, you're in the middle of a mix and for whatever reason, you're just not feeling the song. OR, you find out that the file you're working on doesn't have the latest drum edits. In PT, you can simply save the mix at that point, open another song and continue on. On the SSL, it's much more complicated than that. OR, fader swapping on the Icon is a given, whereas on an SSL, it's an impossibility. (Can we bring the 16 tracks of strings to the sweet spot so I can get the blend and then move them down to the end of the desk once I have them blended? On an Icon, BAM, done. On the SSL, fuggedaboudit.) Now that can be a real vibe-killer, too.

1. When I call an SSL analog desk a "fixed medium," I'm referring to the fact that you buy it today for what it does, and it will never do more than the capabilities built into the desk at that moment. Yes, it's easy to route and patch and get more aux's going, but I'm not arguing that. The point I'm trying to make is that the Icon can serve any purpose that the software programs it to... like my example of Virus Indigo parameters mapped out on every controller on the board. You absolutely cannot do that on an SSL. Although not exactly complex routing, doing I/O inserts on a channel doesn't stop playback--and in my scenario, I can audition every compressor in the rack on a vocal while the track plays through.

And again, I'm not arguing that SSL's are bad in any way--I wouldn't have owned one! I think the differences in the current posts are down to personal preference, and people are really stating their cases for the way they like to work. I like to have full control of everything from the center position. I like to move 16 faders of stems to my left when I want to by pressing a button. I don't mind stopping to create more aux's or route things elsewhere--and I feel it doesn't take anymore time than on the SSL when you're fast on ProTools. And most importantly, my example above--I like that the board can morph into something else, as though many layers exist beneath the top. I absolutely, positively agree with everyone posting on here that things slow WAY down when staring at the screen, and that the least intuitive way to be creative is to mouse around trying to get things to sound right. This console takes away the need for the screen, and pulls me in just like the SSL. I think less about the graphics element and more about the creative aspects of the mix. Any client can run their own mutes and fader moves, as the faders are every bit equivalent to any high-end desk.


2. We are setting up patchbays for everything, as we have so much routing in the rooms that it's necessary anyway. One other benefit of setting up the room on patchbays is that we can send headphone stems pre-ProTools (and pre-24 track if we track analog first, allowing us to monitor off tape). We have custom headphone mix stations out in the live rooms, and the patchbay system I'm setting up will allow us to patch out of the preamps straight to the artists' headphone stations. What we do with our preamp outs is up to us--24 track or straight to ProTools, but we're eliminating latency for the performers. That being said, I still prefer a one-to-one relationship between the number of I/O's of outboard gear, and the number of converter channels--I want to run everything, all at once, on an extreme system if I want to. I might only do that once a year, but that one time counts!


3. I recall mixes by bouncing tracks in on a one-for-one basis during the final mix. Therefore, my final mix sessions consist of the stereo mix file, and each individual track as tweaked for the mix, recorded back in track by track. This can certainly be done on an SSL (I was doing this on that desk too) through direct outs and/or routing, but it's much faster in ProTools. When it's vital, we shoot pictures of the fronts of gear just in case...


-Kevin McNoldy
Crystalphonic Recording Studio
www.crystalphonic.com