1. If you can afford a $100k-200k PT system you can also afford a $400k analog desk.

During the many years you will use the analog desk you have to upgrade your digital system at least 4 times and it won't be worth **** at the end of it's lifespan, whereas analog SSL's will always have a value left after many years.

If I'd buy a SSL K now, I'm sure it will be one of the best sounding mixing mediums for 15 years to come. You don't lose much sleep over the sound quality.

2. It's true that TR got people interested, but SSL didn't compromise the sound for TR. Icon/PT is still a compromise in sound to give you comfort/affordability for me.

I think Protools HD along with quality outboard/converters is capable of delivering decent results. However most people are choosing "decent" because of the convinience/cost advantages associated. I know this is not the place to discuss sonics, and I dont want to enter a pissing match but I have yet to hear anything Amazing done itb.

However one cannot deny the trend toward moving itb and the fact that the sound of digital has improved sonically, and it will probably continue to improve

Couple these things with the decreasing budgets and the fact that the country is involved in a war (that may never end considering we are fighting terrorism across the globe), I can see why people are phasing out their consoles. INFACT though I am known as NO SSLYET, I dont think I would invest in one.

Hell with the way songwriting is in the dumps today Its a wonder anyone cares about sonics at all

Most people mixing itb, if you want to call it a trend, did not exactly ditch their big SSL K desk for it.

To be honest, most of them couldn't afford one to start with.

All the big mixers I know still prefer to mix on big analog desks, if the budget is no object.


It's like saying there is a trend to PC based Cubase systems. No. It's just what 99% of the population can afford, but not necessarily better in sonic terms.

Mixing ITB with Nuendo/Cubase, ProTools and the right outboard can sound pretty good.

But for me there will be always an element missing where the song really comes alive. That magic happens only with very good analog desks, at least for me.

I dont think the itb trend is only from people who couldnt afford to mix in an ssl room.

True most would not be able to afford to BUY an J/K but there is definately an itb trend in music. I'm not saying that its for the better, simply that it is there.

Most of the engineers I know prefer a console also

On another thread you said that you own the studio where CLA is working, I am wondering if Chris is looking forward to working on your D-Control ?

Being in the same line with Bob Clearmountain has saved my day.....what do I say.....my whole WEEK......

Well, actually, I'll say that Thrill kind of inaccurately portrayed my/CLA's intentions about this in another thread. The second room is not in any way, shape or form being built because of Chris and/or his wishes. It is being built because I want to build it for MY purposes and/or for anyone really interested in that model.

Having said that, it should be no secret that I feel that part of my responsibilities as a studio owner is to keep my clients abreast of possible trends for the future. If I weren't keeping my eyes and ears open for where the industry is heading, I'd be failing my clients. It is in my best interest to keep my clients totally up to date. With that in mind, I am undertaking the installation of the D-Control to see what it can do for myself, for Chris and/or for any other clients of mine. My doing so will allow Chris to at least see what that style of working is all about, without having to commit to it in any way. Chris is the type of guy who has a great collection of vintage gear and is very, very satisfied with his SSL style of working, yet he has great interest in whatever is new out there. He just doesn't have the time to fully delve into these things, so I undertake the legwork and make decisions on what I think is really worth putting into service. So, yes, he has *interest* in it, but whether he'd ever give up the SSL style of working is not a question that either of us is even remotely pondering at this time. It's way too early to even think about. However, knowing Chris, I know that the moment I get the board up and installed, Chris is going to be in that room seeing what she'll do. It's just his nature. Wouldn't matter if it were a Neve 8068, a new SSL 9k, a C200 or a D-Control. He'll be in there pushing the rest of us out of the way and mixing! But whether or not he'd ever take to it I couldn't say...hell, I can't even say that I'LL take to it! But we'll install it fully and see what she'll do.

Stay tuned...

Does ADC work with the Apogee boxes?

shhhhhhhhhhhh

you're spoiling my post

Drew, I'm not totally sure about that. Out of the box, no, Apogee's don't work flawlessly with ADC. My understanding is that within PT, you can manually offset convertors so that they *will* work with ADC, but I don't want to take any chances. I want to have at least 8 channels of Digidesign I/O so that I can have some flawless ADC action!

what's the deal with that photo of supersonic?

it looks like there's more cgi than a lucasfilm and more photoshop than cosmo...???


gregoire
del ubik

i amazes me that it offends people so much that more are moving towards an ITB solution... i think it says more about their ego than any sonic qualities of ITB....

personally, i LIKE to mix ITB... i could go to a LFC studio if i wanted to, i relaly have no desire to do so. i can track anytime i want on 2", i dont want to. i dont think thats a fair assumption that all people who mix ITB do it because they have no other means.

i prefer the clarity of ITB over the mushyness of analog summing/consoles. i enjoy the quicker response ITB over OTB. i DEFINATELY prefer the instant recall which has fully changed the way i mix albums... not one song at a time but the whole album.

you may like my mixes or not, but how i mix them has nothing to do with that resulting sound.... i have done it both ways and it pretty much sounds like me mixing the material. iow, i dont find mixing ITB frustrating or limiting... nad im freaking native here. i tend to embrace limitations.

i do think its in the ears and not the gears.

As a good friend of mine (with a very expensive analog console) would say:

"Just choose your weapon and make some music."

Peace

thats what everything REALLY boils down to.


id rather record some killer rock band on a cassette 4 track then some vapid pop star in a multimillion dollar studio. i think music makes FAR more of a difference than anything else in its wettest dreams.

great thread! makes me all the more happy about deciding on an AWS 900! right now i'm doing ITB w/ pultecs,480L, TC,AMS,LA2, 1176, bla bla bla, and i can say yeah, it sounds good. but IMHO the AWS will give me a GREAT summer, center section, work flow by being a controller also, automated analog faders when i need 'em, analog EQ with TR when i need it, and 24 channels ain't all that much to recall, so i think that's best of both worlds. most importantly i dig the sound signature of the AWS (not mushy at all), so i can pick what i want when i want it.

i can see a commercial studio going for the Icon, but since i'm the main guy i have to please here, i can't see dumping all those $$$ into a huge mouse. and i have to say i really did like the sound of the AWS. but FWIW i think resonater will be able to get the desired results in his Icon room.

next generation AWS i'm sure will be a sight to behold though...

spent a long while talking to the Apogee folks today about ADC, and basically the conclusion was, if you're inserting analog gear within a sub group (like drums), say a pultec on the kick -- yes, you should compensate the non inserted tracks within that group, as the apogee boxes are actually a bit faster than the 192.

but as to anything else that' s 'independent', i.e. lead vox, lead gtr, bass, individual keys, etc., if recording at 96kHz, tens of samples out of 96000 per second shouldn't be a big deal, so basically a non issue, and ADC within protools should work as advertised -- also told me the delay between one interface and another i.e. (2) DA16X units, will be the SAME as the delay between (2) 192s, so no big deal there either. this cleared alot of stuff up for me.

Raal, Alphajerk, NoSSL and others,

yes, great posts. Really, we live in good times. The price of technology is becoming low enough to allow alot of people to take part and compete, rather than being disenfranchised by the buy-in price. Raal, I applaud your choice of the AWS, and it sounds like you're really having fun with it. SSL makes GREAT products which are supported by GREAT employees of that company. I salute you. My friend, Tal Herzberg, a great grammy-nom'ed (sorry Alphajerk for the music industry reference) L.A. engineer and surely one of this city's most advanced ProTools guru's, chose the AWS for his room, and that says a hell of a lot. There is simply no questioning SSL's dedication to excellence, and now with Peter Gabriel at the helm, we can most likely expect continued development of great stuff.

Having said that, I really do believe that ITB is here right now. I can't wait to give it everything that I have to get great results. I'm going to take those darn signals through the Thermionic Phoenix, the Vari-mu, the Gyratec X and MAKE them sound like something, come hell or high water! Hell, this should be FUN! I wonder how early I can sneak out of the house tomorrow to get down there...

to me it just says that what he wants to work on.... does that make sense? who cares WHO it is... or what they work on. just that it works for them. that is what is so petty about these types of discussions. why is there such insistance on projecting ideals upon people? im guilty of it myself at times, i think everyone is.

i mean would we all be happy if we were all using the exact same thing?


good luck with the road you are heading on.

oh, and i dont know who that guy is you referenced.... was he that guy who did that one song about sunscreen... does film too? or am i thinking of someone different? i cant keep up with all the engineers anymore.

not unless you all started using the exact same things as me.



stike stike stike stike MUAAHAHAA! stike stike stike stike



humbly,

gregoire
del ubik

Well , after all that....is there a chance for any aditional thoughts about that topic crystalphonic ?

You may prefer the killer rock band on a 4 track, but I'd rather have the killer rock band in the multimillion dollar studio.

If ITB makes you happy enjoy it!

The only thing that makes this topic interesting is if this studio depends on outside engineers for business. Because than the studio is betting than most engineers would rather use an ICON than an SSL.

If it's for his own use than he can use a soundcraft if he wants.

id rather just have a vibey studio.... doesnt need to be multimillion dollar for jack squat of the sound. a decent mic locker and great sounding room, the room being the most important part. after that, its a piece of cake.

Kenny, with all due respect, you've reached an illogical conclusion. And in doing so, you're overlooking one of the most basic business principals...supply and demand.

There are 50+ SSL rooms in Los Angeles to meet the demand for them. Sadly, despite the large number of engineers who love working on SSL's, many of those rooms are hurting for business. So, we have too much supply for too little demand.

There are no *proper* D-Control rooms in Los Angeles to meet whatever demand exists for them. SO, studios considering putting such a room into service would not at all be betting that "most engineers would rather use an Icon than an SSL" (that is an illogical conclusion). No, they are betting that there is not enough supply of Icon rooms to meet whatever demand exists for them. Doesn't necessarily mean that said studio owners will be *right* in their conclusions, but this is a supply/demand issue, NOT an engineer preference issue.

BMW decides to distribute Mini-Cooper. Does that mean that they're betting that most people would prefer a Mini-Cooper to a Honda? That's just not a conclusion to be considered.

I personally like mixes done on a console, even mixers I highly respect.
But at the end of the day, some 14 year old downloads the song as an MP3. Now almost everything I liked about it sonically is gone. But that still doesn't stop the consumer from enjoying free or seldom bought music.


www.bluethumbproductions.com

mmm, lets all get Tascam 4 tracks then.

Several major studios have closed over the last few months and even those left are going out at well below par rates. The secondhand market is awash with some great analogue consoles at bargin bucket rates, Amek has ceased trading, Neve and SSL have both been sold in the last few weeks. Euphonix no longer makes an analogue desk. Too ignore these pointers is commercial suicide. Neve and SSL were not sold because of their full order books. Sure Bob Clearmountain and a few others can afford to have one sitting around, mostly because they are rich from points deals they have done over the last 20-30 years, but in the room for hire market it is very different in that most clients are now paying less and booking in for shorter times, there is generally less work to go around and costs (rates, electricity and staff etc) have risen sharpley.

Regards to all


Roland

agreed. for a little while there i was getting worried that all this added up to the demise of records with a killer analog vibe.

however, my own experience with the nicerizer, coupled with the increasing trend of boutique companies that are creating modular product lines which offer sonics right up there with the sweetest consoles, gives me tremendous hope that the hybrid studio can do everything the old school rooms can, maybe even more.

i love the idea of having 24 faders over to my left that i can easily massage by reaching out, with my eq's down to my left side and dynamics to my right and nothing between me and the monitors but pure, unreflected air. tweaking with my eyes closed is essential; i'm getting it done on the daw, but it's taking me 5x longer than it would if every critical eq and dynamic parameter had its own knob, no assigning, no switching, no thinking... just DOING.


gregoire
del ubik

what, so we can all argue about whether or not to use the DBX noise reduction?
isn't this discussion really about how things are changing within our field? having worked in studios for almost three decades and having my own recording gear for over 4 decades all i can say is, "the more things change, the more they stay the same."
when i was very young all of the older guys talked about how great tubes were and that solid state was going to be the end of music. tubes are still around and sound fantastic. solid state is still around and can sound very good as well.
when i was a bit older i promulgated the virtues of analog and tried to point out to anyone that would listen that digital sounded terrible. analog is still around and is experiencing a renaissance. digital finally sounds pretty good (but different than analog) if U have learned how to work w/ it.
now, everyone (almost) points to ITB as being the 3,759th last sign of the impending apocalypse. extrapolate the axiomatic here.
we are, slowly and surely, going in an new direction here. traditional consoles will be around for the rest of eternity (MY eternity) but this whole concept of integrated control surface/DAW/interfaces is beginning to emerge as a solution to what right now is a kludge. this is inevitable. by getting rid of stuff that is really only pertinent to analog mixing considerations we can (and will) move towards a solution that is geared to the concept of what digi (and others i hope) sees in this 'icon' concept.
me?
after having worked in 'big studios' on all sorts of gear, i would sooner be at home doing stuff on my own rig: loads of good outboard, logic, DP, logic control/XT/C4. dangerous 2buss/MX/monitor and soon to be 1" 2 track.