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Lavry Blue settings??
Old 26th June 2005
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Lavry Blue settings??

Hello,

I'm trying to understand which settings to use on the Lavry Blue and would appreciate some recommendations to save me the 'stab in the dark' method. The manual isn't understandable to me. I'm recording violin/piano with (Royer sf-12-->Millennia HV-3-->Lavry Blue) and would like to record on the most accurate settings regardless of file size. Here are the options:

1)2X (What does this switch do exactly?)
2)Wide vs. Narrow (I also don't understand this)
3) Analog Soft Saturation
4) Digital Soft Saturation (If i'm not mistaken, you can choose either or both of these two options. Any recommendations or explanation as far as what to expect with these alone or in combination?)
5) Dither, ABC1, ABC2 (It seems that you can choose between only one of these options and from what I'm guessing, it woudn't apply if you're trying to use 24 bit recording, the highest resolution. Is this correct?)
6) As far as the "Reference Meter Bridge" and the "peak-Hold" option, I'm assuming that they are only visual guides and don't affect the audio.

I think the manual can be a little more explicit with some examples in this area.

I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks!
Old 26th June 2005
  #2
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Tetness's Avatar
I couldn't understand mine, either. I had Peter Reardon @ Shadow Hills come over and hook mine up or I'd be lost. The manual is completely useless. Not only do these switches move up and down, but also sideways. Sorry, I coulnd't help.
Old 26th June 2005
  #3
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Let´s see if I got that right.

1. I don´t have "2x" on mine, but maybe it´s about the "High / Low" switch?
That is for to set up the sampling rate. For instance if you want to record in 96k you would set the one switch to 48/96 and the "High / Low" to "High".

2. "Wide/ Narrow" is for how accurate the device would slave to external clock. If you want it to follow tight chose "Narrow".

3. Analog saturation emulates anlog compression / tape saturation.

4. Digital saturation acts similar to a digital limiter. I hardly use any of both, but like the digital option better. It seems to stay more invisible while making the audio quite louder.

5. The dither options must be meant for down sampling. The two types should give you a choice for different sorts of material. I never tried those.

6. You are right. Changes on the meter settings won´t affect the audio.

7. Yes the manual is one of the worst I´ve ever seen and I wonder why they don´t change it while they know that customers complain.
However, if you have question they will give their best to help you out. Great support!

Ruphus
Old 26th June 2005
  #4
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obostic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaba
Hello,


1)2X (What does this switch do exactly?

For connecting legacy equipment that has a sync output of no greater than 52Khz. For example you have an old ardsync with top sampling rate of 48Khz and everything else in your studio is running at 96Khz. By switching on the 2X switch and connecting the ardsyn snyc to the Lavry word clock input the input signal from the ardsync is now converted to 96Khz if initially set to 48Khz. Therefore, the ardsync is now compatible with the Lavry unit and your studio running at 96Khz.

2)Wide vs. Narrow (I also don't understand this)

Wide is for locking to a sync signal that is not exactly 44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96. Narrow produces the less amount of jitter and is the best setting if you are using 44.1, 48, 88.2 or 96 exactly.


3) Analog Soft Saturation
I personally don't like it because things tend to get a little cloudy.

4) Digital Soft Saturation (If i'm not mistaken, you can choose either or both of these two options. Any recommendations or explanation as far as what to expect with these alone or in combination?)

Think limiter such as a Wave L2, but with only one setting of 6dbs of gain.


5) Dither, ABC1, ABC2 (It seems that you can choose between only one of these options and from what I'm guessing, it woudn't apply if you're trying to use 24 bit recording, the highest resolution. Is this correct?)

Yes, that is correct this is only used for bit reduction of 20 or 16 bit output. As far as ABC1, or ABC2 you really need to try both and see which one is more suitable for your project.



6) As far as the "Reference Meter Bridge" and the "peak-Hold" option, I'm assuming that they are only visual guides and don't affect the audio.

Yes, they are visual guides that allow you to set the actual input or reference level of the incoming signal via the trim screws located on the first panel.

Thanks!
Old 26th June 2005
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaba
Hello,

I'm trying to understand which settings to use on the Lavry Blue... I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks!
I will be posting some better explanations on my web at www.lavryengineering.com

For now, here is some information. While I was writng it, I see others came to help, but I might as post my whole answer:

1)2X (What does this switch do exactly?)

(See pg 16, the last paragraph in the manual)

When using external sync, you connect a signal (word clock or AES) to the “Clock In” connector at the rear.
With the switch setting at normal position (“2X OFF”), the unit can synchronize directly to the clock signal.
The “X2 ON” position enables receiving a 44.1KHz (or 48KHz) sync and convert it into a 88.2KHz (or 96KH) sync.
The “X2 ON” position is for users that wish to:
1. Synchronize the AD(s) to external clock
2. Operate the converters at 88.2KHZ or 96KHZ
3. Do not have an 88.2-96KHz sync signal, but have 44.1-48KHz sync.

2)Wide vs. Narrow (I also don't understand this)

(See pg 15 and 16, the last paragraph in the manual)

Wide and Narrow lock apply only to external synchronization modes. Wide and narrow lock settings are ignored when operating in internal clock modes.
When in external sync. mode, it is best to use the specific built in pull able crystal (called VCXO) clock devices, because such devices do the best job of jitter reduction possible. The built in VCXO’s accommodate 4 sampling rates: 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz and 96KHz.
So in most cases for audio, you can use a NARROW setting, and should do so when using the specified 4 rates.
However, there are applications for such “vary speed” and other non standard audio sampling rates (such as 44.056KHz, 44.1441KHz, 47.952KHz….) and “endless” other possibilities. The WIDE setting enables locking to any frequency between 42-50KHz or 84-100KHz, including a slow varying sampling rates (vary speed).
WIDE is very flexible, but the jitter level at WIDE is higher. Use NARROW when possible.

3) Analog Soft Saturation

Analog soft saturation takes place in the analog circuitry BEFORE the signal arrives at the converter. The feature is for people that “slam” the converter input real hard, beyond the conversion limits (below the minimum and above the maximum conversion range). The analog soft saturation “pushes” the peaks of the signal down, which makes the clipping less severe.

4) Digital Soft Saturation (If i'm not mistaken, you can choose either or both of these two options. Any recommendations or explanation as far as what to expect with these alone or in combination?)

Digital soft saturation takes place AFTER the conversion, therefore it is a digital processes. When digital soft saturation is applied, the meter will show the signal AFTER the processes (so what you see is what you get). Simply speaking, the idea is to increase the loudness by 6dB. The process does exactly that to signals up to -12dBFS (12dB below clipping). The signal in the range between -12dBFS and 0dBFS (clipping) is “treated” as if it were an analog tape reaching full magnetization characteristics. The process is different than a compressor, it does not have an attack and release time.

You can use analog, digital or both saturations. Use you ears to decided what to use and when. Personally, I prefer it off for classical music. The digital saturation sounds great for some music…

“5) Dither, ABC1, ABC2 (It seems that you can choose between only one of these options and from what I'm guessing, it woudn't apply if you're trying to use 24 bit recording, the highest resolution. Is this correct?)”

As a rule, you want to keep the signals at 24 bits, so the dither and noise shaping should be off. The features are there for those that want to record directly to a lower bit format (such as CD), for people that have an analog source (already mastered) and want to make a CD and similar cases.

The 3 cases are briefly described on page 15 of the manual. For much better detail go to www.lavryengineering.com and under support, click on “Acoustic Bit Correction”, a 5 page pdf with explanations and plots. It is good reading material for getting familiar with modern dither which is based on “customizing” the noise floor to the ears hearing sensitivity.

6) As far as the "Reference Meter Bridge" and the "peak-Hold" option, I'm assuming that they are only visual guides and don't affect the audio.

Yes, they are visual guides and do not effect the audio.

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Old 27th June 2005
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetness
I couldn't understand mine, either. I had Peter Reardon @ Shadow Hills come over and hook mine up or I'd be lost. The manual is completely useless. Not only do these switches move up and down, but also sideways. Sorry, I coulnd't help.
I do not understand your comment. The switches may have some "play", but they do not move sideways. In fact I use very high quality, high reliability and rather expansive switches.

Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Old 27th June 2005
  #7
Lives for gear
 
matucha's Avatar
I don't find manual useless. True is it is more technical text than user guide. There is no big distinction between usual things and special cases. At least from my perspective. Things that involve changing jumpers inside the box, should be under the line or in some apendix. Not a big case IMO.
Old 27th June 2005
  #8
Gear Addict
 

I didn't have any problem with the manual and going through the options with the switch. My switch, moves either up or down. Hold it in either position to enter the configuration menu. All set up here and sounds great.

Brandon
Old 27th June 2005
  #9
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

Easy as pie for me aswell. i thougt the manual made sense, but nice of dan to come through anyway. oh and damn that thing sounds good.
Old 27th June 2005
  #10
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obostic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetness
Not only do these switches move up and down, but also sideways. Sorry, I coulnd't help.

I believe that was a JOKE! heh
Old 27th June 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

I think these guys must be right. Manuals shouldn´t waste too much paper. At best they shouild all be written like "button to the right increase, switch upwards on", period. What´s why and how good for when people can be so brilliant? Actually goods should only be bought by people who know them inside out anyway, and the rest should have more excitement while puzzling around and in the same time one or two trees could be saved.

Great idea.

Oh, and we dumbs are proud on you smart fellas who even know which XLR jack is meant for what, just by looking at it.

- Yeah, one can indeed find it out in this case by logical thinking, but I for my part prefer it all labelled and explained nevertheless. And like to read well made manuals. It´s fun that adds to the item.


Ruphus
Old 28th June 2005
  #12
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
I think these guys must be right. Manuals shouldn´t waste too much paper. At best they shouild all be written like "button to the right increase, switch upwards on", period. What´s why and how good for when people can be so brilliant? Actually goods should only be bought by people who know them inside out anyway, and the rest should have more excitement while puzzling around and in the same time one or two trees could be saved.

Great idea.

Oh, and we dumbs are proud on you smart fellas who even know which XLR jack is meant for what, just by looking at it.

- Yeah, one can indeed find it out in this case by logical thinking, but I for my part prefer it all labelled and explained nevertheless. And like to read well made manuals. It´s fun that adds to the item.


Ruphus
A technical writer, a writer of many product manuals, died. He was an sort of an OK guy, not really a nice person, but not really a bad dude. So on the day of judgment, the decision between hell and heaven was a tough one. Finally, the decision came down from above, to send him to hell with an instructions manual titled “how to go from hell to the heaven”.
Needless to say, he is still in hell, trying to figure it out heh

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Old 28th June 2005
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

heh

At least we´ll be having great sound in hell then.

Ruphus
Old 28th June 2005
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Lavry
A technical writer, a writer of many product manuals, died. He was an sort of an OK guy, not really a nice person, but not really a bad dude. So on the day of judgment, the decision between hell and heaven was a tough one. Finally, the decision came down from above, to send him to hell with an instructions manual titled “how to go from hell to the heaven”.
Needless to say, he is still in hell, trying to figure it out heh

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com


Hey Dan, I love your products but your manulas didn't help me much either. One thing to consider is that a lot of musicians and home studio "producers" will be buying your products. You might want to get with someone who can express your ideas in very simple terms. Also, diagrams are a good idea... For kids who don't read good.

I've heard that only someone who truly understands something can explain it so that no one else can understand it.
Old 28th June 2005
  #15
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Tetness's Avatar
I second that motion, Dan. Love, love, love my LE4496 blue. So clear and open. However, I failed at getting it setup. I had to ask a tech, Peter Readon of Shadow Hills, to come over and do it. He also has your Lavry Blue.

So a better manual would be thumbsup thumbsup
Old 28th June 2005
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul David


Hey Dan, I love your products but your manulas didn't help me much either. One thing to consider is that a lot of musicians and home studio "producers" will be buying your products. You might want to get with someone who can express your ideas in very simple terms. Also, diagrams are a good idea... For kids who don't read good.

I've heard that only someone who truly understands something can explain it so that no one else can understand it.

Thanks for the comments. Indeed, there are more musicians and home studio people getting into recording, and I should not assume much prior knowledge, when making a Manuel. I will change the manual to be more instructive (it will take a little time but I will do it), and the revised version will be available on the web at www.lavryengineering.com under support.

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Old 28th June 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Tetness's Avatar
Great news. Thanks!!!!

One other thing, and I know I'm not alone when i say this, having several friends with Lavry Blues as well. Maybe you could redesign the faceplate. It seems a little cheap, plastic, with the little blue cut-out windows that slide when you push on them.

In my opinion, your converters are the top of the line, I think they should look that way, too. Just a thought.
Old 29th June 2005
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Lavry
Thanks for the comments. Indeed, there are more musicians and home studio people getting into recording, and I should not assume much prior knowledge, when making a Manuel. I will change the manual to be more instructive (it will take a little time but I will do it), and the revised version will be available on the web at www.lavryengineering.com under support.

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Great, I'm looking forward to reading it. I would also like to see some diagrams and detailed instructions for installing more converters. Those empty spaces and blank pannels are flipping me off.

Peace, Paul
Old 1st July 2005
  #19
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetness
Great news. Thanks!!!!

One other thing, and I know I'm not alone when i say this, having several friends with Lavry Blues as well. Maybe you could redesign the faceplate. It seems a little cheap, plastic, with the little blue cut-out windows that slide when you push on them.

In my opinion, your converters are the top of the line, I think they should look that way, too. Just a thought.
It is not plastic, it is aluminum, covered by a thin semi transparect layer to difuse the LED's light, and then on top of that it is "painted". The idea is to be able to configure the LavryBlue into different combinations. The plates slides into the front panel, an AD plate in front of the AD, a DA plate for a DA, MicPre plates....
The added flexibility (configurable and expandable units) is not entirly simple. A fixed single front panel is a much easier thing to make.

Regards
Dan Lavry
www.lavryengineering.com
Old 1st July 2005
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Tetness's Avatar
Good to know. I can see now why you went with this design.
Old 2nd July 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
From my perspective, the converters are fantastic, the modular design is very well engineered, the price is terrific for the quality of these converters, and the manual is quite adequate. Let's don't get carried away and run the price up..............everything costs money. These are wonderful converters. A few more words in the manual wil be fine, but I ain't complaining. I love these converters. Super product, Dan.
Old 6th July 2005
  #22
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H
From my perspective, the converters are fantastic, the modular design is very well engineered, the price is terrific for the quality of these converters, and the manual is quite adequate. Let's don't get carried away and run the price up..............everything costs money. These are wonderful converters. A few more words in the manual wil be fine, but I ain't complaining. I love these converters. Super product, Dan.


Thank you for your kind words.
I have been getting a lot of questions about interface, dither and Acoustic Bit Correction, Reference meter and levels....

A few years back, nearly all my customers were large pro studios with full- time “technical personal” so the manual was sufficient. Now, however, since much of the recording is in home studios more individual technical support is needed and I spend time on the web trying to explain the technical side of recording.

I have my "artistic taste" and in recent years it is my opinion that the quality of recorded music has taken a nose dive. The combination of clipping, overdone processing (such as ranging from too much bass boost to tones of reverb…) and some marketing driven “practices”, when coupled with a lot of inexperience, is creating a sound that with some education could be much improved. Unlike the technical issues, one can always convince themselves that "their recording" is what they wanted when in fact "that is what immerged."

I will reorganize the LavryBlue manual to make it clearer to beginning recording engineers. You can always ask questions about my products on my company forum. Perhaps that would be better so the ProSound Web comments could be more theoretical.

Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering, Inc.
http://www.lavryengineering.com
Old 6th July 2005
  #23
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Mr. Lavry,

I would totally appreciate if you thought you could give a listen to one of my mixes and tell me what you think, and how I used your blue box.

That would be exceptional, very interesting for me and very likely a big help forward in my passion for good sonics.



heh

Thank you,

Ruphus
Old 2nd August 2016
  #24
Gear Head
 
PrichA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Lavry View Post
I do not understand your comment. The switches may have some "play", but they do not move sideways. In fact I use very high quality, high reliability and rather expansive switches.

Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering
Hi Dan,

I've had a question for sometime. I own two chassis fully packed with Blue AD and DA converters. I've been meaning to find out how to accurately lock the DA. I know wide if for variable sample rates, but when looking for a consistent lock; do I use crystal of narrow?

I would just like to get the optimum sounding position and keep it there.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Regards
Old 2nd August 2016
  #25
Gear Head
 

Hello PrichA-
Not sure what the quote has to do with your post (?)

Regarding your question on MDA-824 D-to-A converter settings; the Crystal-Lock position offers the highest jitter-rejection, particularly at 44.1 or 48 kHz. However, the Narrow setting also offers excellent results with relatively low-jitter sources.

Results can vary system-to-system, and this is one of the main reasons the choice of settings is available. We have had feedback from some customers that say they preferred the Narrow setting in their system. So either the Narrow or Crystal-Lock setting will give you good results unless the source is relatively high-jitter.

Wide Lock is designed to accommodate variable or non-standard sample frequencies between 40 and 50 kHz, but the trade-off results in higher jitter than the other modes. We don’t recommend using Wide lock unless necessary.

The same can be said for the MSYNC, which provides the clocking for all the MAD-824 A-to-D converters in the same chassis. We only recommend Wide lock mode when necessary. These settings only affect external clocking modes via Word Clock or AES sync.

There is no connection between clock settings of the MSYNC and any MDA-824 D-to-A converters in the same chassis. The MDA D-to-A converters always clock from the incoming AES/SPDIF digital audio signal, and can operate at a different sample rate than the MSYNC if needed. It is also possible to operate two or more MDA-824's in the same chassis at different sample rates, if needed.

You can always contact Lavry Technical Support using the Help Desk on our website if you have any other questions. There is a link on the left side of the SUPPORT tab for Technical Support Requests that takes you to the Help Desk once you have logged in to the website.
Old 5th August 2016
  #26
Gear Head
 
PrichA's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavrytech View Post
Hello PrichA-
Not sure what the quote has to do with your post (?)
Sorry for the quote. Thank you for your response. You've helped me curb my curiosity.

Regards
Old 5th August 2016
  #27
Gear Head
 

No problem on the quote, we just wanted to be certain we understood your question(s).

Thanks again for choosing Lavry converters!
Old 6th August 2016
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
valeot's Avatar
nice information thanks!
didnt know that, i tried it out and liked the narrow setting more than the crystal one on the DA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavrytech View Post
Hello PrichA-
Not sure what the quote has to do with your post (?)

Regarding your question on MDA-824 D-to-A converter settings; the Crystal-Lock position offers the highest jitter-rejection, particularly at 44.1 or 48 kHz. However, the Narrow setting also offers excellent results with relatively low-jitter sources.

Results can vary system-to-system, and this is one of the main reasons the choice of settings is available. We have had feedback from some customers that say they preferred the Narrow setting in their system. So either the Narrow or Crystal-Lock setting will give you good results unless the source is relatively high-jitter.

Wide Lock is designed to accommodate variable or non-standard sample frequencies between 40 and 50 kHz, but the trade-off results in higher jitter than the other modes. We don’t recommend using Wide lock unless necessary.

The same can be said for the MSYNC, which provides the clocking for all the MAD-824 A-to-D converters in the same chassis. We only recommend Wide lock mode when necessary. These settings only affect external clocking modes via Word Clock or AES sync.

There is no connection between clock settings of the MSYNC and any MDA-824 D-to-A converters in the same chassis. The MDA D-to-A converters always clock from the incoming AES/SPDIF digital audio signal, and can operate at a different sample rate than the MSYNC if needed. It is also possible to operate two or more MDA-824's in the same chassis at different sample rates, if needed.

You can always contact Lavry Technical Support using the Help Desk on our website if you have any other questions. There is a link on the left side of the SUPPORT tab for Technical Support Requests that takes you to the Help Desk once you have logged in to the website.
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