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What SOUNDS better/ 24 bit 192k or DSD?
Old 25th June 2005
  #1
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

What SOUNDS better/ 24 bit 192k or DSD?

Two different formats. Which "sounds" better? I know that can bet subjective, but I'd love to hear that opinion as well.
I also know that for 24 bit/192k, front-end converters will be a factor, but if we can leave that out for this thread, as a general "sound."

24 bit/192k.... or... DSD

IS one more tape like? More detail? Fuller? Richer? Deeper? Better imaging?

Please tell, opinions, experience and why.

Peace

DIRTY HALO

www.dirtyhalo.com "Dirty Halo" iTunes
Old 25th June 2005
  #2
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I bet it has more to do with the sound of the project than the audio format at this point.
Old 25th June 2005
  #3
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

ow no here we go again. wheres nika and curve : )
Old 25th June 2005
  #4
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Really? Andy why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great
No question, DSD.



Yup, yup, yup, yup. heh


Ok, and why? What IS it about DSD that gives it that quality?

HOOW superior is it to digital at 24bit/192k?

Would bringing in a Pro Tools ixed project using good analogue front-end, using a mix of INTB fx AND real verbs, compressors, ets THEN mixing out Dangerous 2 Buss to a DSD format like Tascam... THEN bringing THAT into a mastering house give more to Mastering engineers to work with?

Better in the previously described ways and why?

I'd like both subjective and objective opinions and how widely is this accepted?

Doesn't everyone agree, we want a good format to bring to Master engineers?
Something they can really sink their teeth into (good mixes and material aside)

DIRTY HALO

Please BRING ON THE OPINIONS you Gearslutz!!!

AND Sterling people, Bernie people MASTERING people.... what format and sound would you like (tape not withstanding)?

Let's get some real worl done here, please

www.dirtyhalo.com "Dirty Halo" iTunes
Old 25th June 2005
  #5
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Quote:
HOOW superior is it to digital at 24bit/192k?
2.35 times as good, except on alternate Tuesdays.


Quote:
Doesn't everyone agree, we want a good format to bring to Master engineers?
Something they can really sink their teeth into (good mixes and material aside)
The format is not the problem here, it's the quality of people's work. Slamming the converters on every track and then cramming it all down a Pro Tools mixbuss has become the norm. There are exceptions of course, and I'm sure many a gearslut does excellent work regardless of format or gear.

Also, most real mastering houses have analog tape machines. You can eat analog tape.

Old 25th June 2005
  #6
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo
MASTERING people.... what format and sound would you like (tape not withstanding)?
I'd like 1/4", 1/2" or 1" mix tapes that were tracked with live basics to 2" using great mics and pres, and mixed with balance between every instrument in every register.

but that's rare...

mostly i work to make it sound like it was done that way.
Old 26th June 2005
  #7
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

DSD closest to tape! .... Nika and TONS of info.

If you look a few posts back on this thread, there is a link to more info than any brain can handle. Thank you.

Up shot is, sounds like despide techncal reasons, the consensus was that DSD was "more pleaseing" and "euphoric" than any PCM, DSD was more like 2 track mixing to analgue tape.

My use for The Tascam would be to Dangerous 2 buss analogue 2 track mix to DSD and bring that in to a mastering house to master off of.

Any experience with THE Tascam unit now? That previous post was all pre- release.

And, how does the Tascam sound or do I also need front end/back-end-converters to make the most of DSD or that Tascam? If so recommed and will it make THAT much difference? Really.

Is anything I said flawed in my understanding?

Simply looking for a very tape sounding medium to bring to Berinie Grundman.

DIRTY HALo

www.dirtyhalo.com "Dirty Halo can be found on iTunes
Old 26th June 2005
  #8
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I've seen a few threads on the new Tascam here. I think one person said that the built-in converters were pretty good. Obviously if you feed it with an EMM Labs or DCS unit you'll really be getting some smooth tones.

If I were bringing my mixes to Bernie Grundman Mastering as opposed to doing it myself, I would avoid digital tape emulators. Even great ones like the HEDD might do more harm than good at that point.

Analog tape is still an option I believe, though digital has the convenience factor. Yeah, I may look for a nice analog deck to mixdown to. But i just got a Lynx AES/16 card, so I'm looking to get Sequoia software and mix through Mytek converters into that.
Old 26th June 2005
  #9
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zenmastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo

Any experience with THE Tascam unit now? That previous post was all pre- release.

And, how does the Tascam sound or do I also need front end/back-end-converters to make the most of DSD or that Tascam? If so recommed and will it make THAT much difference? Really.

I have both the Tascam DVRA-1000 and EMM Labs converters. No, the converters in the Tascam are not as good as the EMM boxes, *but* they are very respectable and a real bargain at the price.

Overall, I like the DVRA 1000 and think it's a very useful mixing box. In fact, I'm using mine right now as an A/D converter to return reverb into a DSD mix!

If you haven't heard the Tascam, I suggest you try it - I won't recommend anything other than that you play with it and come to your own conclusions.

As far as your question about mastering formats is concerned, I like anything 24bit/88k2 and higher, if it's available. DSD is great (even if the final product will be 44k1/16bit), but as JDunn mentioned, the quality of the recording is far more important than the difference between high rate PCM and DSD.

I think that there are EMM Labs converters at Bernie Grundman's...

Best,

Graemme
Old 26th June 2005
  #10
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audioez's Avatar
 

24bit 192kHz = PCM

DSD = in a league of it's own
Old 26th June 2005
  #11
Old 26th June 2005
  #12
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

THANK YOU!!! One and all

thumbsup

Thank you guys oone and all, especially the post with the two insane mind0-bending links of information and the last "simplified" review (I wish more reviews had that clarity).

This thread really helped me a lot! Thank you guys, goood forum, great community. This whole community share works! For real thumbsup

Andrews of the band DIRTY HALO

Just so you know, we own a sudo and produce (noot just the hack, get our own rig and steal the labels money

As always, would love for you to hear our music if you go to iTunes "Dirty Halo" or heck, even venture into an actual music store, feven a big one like Virgin!

Always open to feedback [email protected]
Old 26th June 2005
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

How would the tascam's converters fair vs let's say Motu HD192 or Lucid 24/96? all of these units would be clocked to a BIG BEN. Which would fair better???
Old 26th June 2005
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

What are your opinions ? I am considering getting the tascam DSD machine. I want to know will it be much better than what I do now . I mix out of the box to a sound craft ghost although I do use some pluggins like eq and comp maybe a little gate here and there but my FX are outboard boxes and i use the eq's on my board. I run the mix out of the main outs of the ghost and into a Telefunken v672 and that goes back into my HD192(clocked to Big Ben) and into a stereo track in DP4 and there is where I master the track with pluggins( comp, eq, waves L2 and the colonel's secret formula.) I am getting pretty good results but you know me always looking to improve....
Old 28th June 2005
  #15
Gear Nut
 

I heard a DVD-A of Celine Dion's "The Power of Love" and I heard a DSD of Tchaikowsky's 1812 Overture. The DSD was significantly better: I liked the chorus in the beginning - the thick, rich ensemble singing that old Russian folk song. The intonation was impeccable. I especially like that Brass riff that cycles back at the end. And then the canons. In short, it was a much better listening experience. I didn't really like the lyrics in the Celine Dion tune.

Ergo, DSD is inherently better.

Nika
Old 28th June 2005
  #16
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Ruudman's Avatar
 

Did I misunderstand something here?
Did you compare the Dion recording to Tchaikovsky
you say?

How can you conclude based on that comparison??
With all respect, of course

....uuuunless you were kidding....

ruudman
Old 28th June 2005
  #17
Gear Addict
 
MBishopSFX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruudman
Did I misunderstand something here?
Did you compare the Dion recording to Tchaikovsky
you say?

How can you conclude based on that comparison??
With all respect, of course

....uuuunless you were kidding....

ruudman
There must be something about living so far north that makes you a very serious people...
Old 28th June 2005
  #18
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Ruudman's Avatar
 

We're serious about our Dion records for sure heh

ruudman
Old 28th June 2005
  #19
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the1Hub's Avatar
 

DSD thumbsup
thanks to Gaemme he got me going on DSD.
Speaking of DSD projects wheres the JOE McQueen project at Graemme. i cant wait to hear the finished product. Cavaliers tommorrow... pray for good weather.
Old 29th June 2005
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioez
24bit 192kHz = PCM

DSD = in a league of it's own
I had extensive experience with both and can say they are very close when factors such as different brands of converters are removed. So close that the choice of production flow can outweigth quality issues. As a matter of fact our new 8X192ADDA can do both 192k and DSD including 128x DSD which is better yet.

We have done parallel DSD/176.4k comparisons as well as experimented with PCM>DSD conversion software.

Generally DSD will shine in direct recording _without_ digital processing. If there is digital processing involved go with 176.4k PCM and convert to DSD later.

here is a post I posted on the subject awhile ago on another forum:


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michal Jurewicz" <[email protected]>
To: Recipients of 'masteringhowto'
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: Who's using 192k?


What about 176.4k?

I had some discussions on the subject with some engineers and everybody
seems to agree that 176.4k elegantly converts to 44.1k for CD and (64x44.1k)
DSD for SACD as well as native or downsampled for 88.2k for multichannel
DVD-A. Only for DVD-V it has to be downsampled to 48k, but then sound is
less important on DVD-V.

It also takes less space than 192k and sounds pretty much the same, better
than 96k.

Couple of engineers were about to archive large stereo tape archives and
they were going to try 176.4k.

I have worked as a technical consultant on a project which involved several
large orchestra recordings of Polish contemporary classical recorded by
engineer Andrew Lipinski for several surroundd SACD releases.

Final mix has 5 surround plus 1 ceiling channel and it sounds really good.
DSD master is produced from 176.4k 6 chan PCM mix. using Soft DSD from
Sigreal. (there is also algorithm from Daniel Weiss and Philips). We
recorded 16 channels of 176.4k.
Everything has been cleaned up with Algorthmix Renovator and edited and
mixed in Sequoia.

We achieved spectacular lifeness and clarity of sound, especially 6 chan
surround done accurately produces the sense of being there.

I really like 176.4k for production and 6 chan SACD for release. DVD-A is
good too, but SACD is a hair closer to 176.4k and it sounds really nice.

Regards , Michal at Mytek
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