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Mixing in Logic...
Old 23rd June 2005
  #1
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PhilE's Avatar
Mixing in Logic...

I am going to be doing a mix 2mo at a private studio- I would normally be going from tape or protools onto a large format console.
However, this will be Logic based. I am taking my fave comps and a couple of EQs with me (which I WILL be using) but am I best to keep my summing ITB or to use the Mackie 8-buss (analogue not D8B) that is there? I'm not goint to have much time so if the desk is a bad idea I don't want to waste time getting it set up to work that way.
Any thoughts? thanks guys.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #2
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XHipHop's Avatar
I mix in Logic often and would prefer the sound to the Mackie bus (even though I've never done Fletcher's trick of keeping the master fader low and using a nice preamp to bring the gain up). I usually stem my Logic tracks to a Neotek Elite but in the box works fine too...just stay away from the multiband compressor plugin (it has stereo issues!).
Old 23rd June 2005
  #3
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PhilE's Avatar
Ahhh OK, thanks

I should add that this is a rock track I'm doing even though it isnt the rockiest of setups!
I am a little worried about the sound of logic's summing cos it was dodgy to my ears in v4 last one I used- but then the Mackies always sounded 'cold' to me in the past- but again its been years since I even touched one and that wasn't an 8-buss.
Old 24th June 2005
  #4
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u b k's Avatar
 

what kind of music is it? if it's anything dense, or with a lot of mid/hi-mid content, itb may be problematic. note i said *may*; some guys make it work, maybe you're one of them.

i'd at least take 10 minutes to give the mackie a shot. forgive me if you know all this, i'll say it anyway just in case: go in thru the inserts to bypass the pre's, even the line level inputs hit that trim circuit and that's not a good thing. keep all the faders midway, go very easy on the master bus. anything you can put afterwards to give oomph and color is a good thing.

actually, the same advice regarding faders/master bus applies to logic as well; it's common to start a desk mix with the kick around -8, but itb i'd start closer to -12.

good luck!


gregoire
del ubik
Old 24th June 2005
  #5
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PhilE's Avatar
Ahhhh- I'm not going to be doing anything in my normal way am I!!
OK so I was planning on going the Mackie route keeping faders at 0 and automating in Logic, but you would not advise? I have heard the monitor mixes of this but not heard the sources... so I hope its well tracked.
If I go easy in Logic and on the desk its gonna be a quiet old mix for rock too isnt it? Have I misunderstood? I don't like giving the mastering house too much room to play!
What about the Mackie EQ?
Old 24th June 2005
  #6
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echorec's Avatar
 

I have never liked plugin EQs but you should check out the Linear phase EQ in Logic. It is really surprisingly good. thumbsup
Old 24th June 2005
  #7
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PhilE's Avatar
Thanks for the advise- I'll check that plug eq out.
Old 24th June 2005
  #8
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adamcal's Avatar
 

I think you are all making too much of a big deal out of it, the way you are all going on it suprising anything gets recorded at all with this kind of setup.

the logic ITB is fine, every bit as good as PT if not better. Be aware that while all audio tracks are delay compensated I dont beleive groups are. (still....i dunno, I jumped ship to nuendo a few years ago)

and the mackie is not all that bad, just dont ride it hard into the red, use mostly plugs for eqing, and the tape inputs are cleaner than the line ins.



of all the things that can f u c k a project, (mic placment, mic choice, bad monitoring enviorment, crappy instruments, crappy playing etc) I think the sound of this or that summing buss is the least of your problems.
Old 24th June 2005
  #9
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PhilE's Avatar
"the logic ITB is fine, every bit as good as PT if not better"

Not unless theyve changed it a lot since v.4 and you seem to be missing my point- I do very little bussing in PT normally.
I don't think it can be called making too much of it considering it is a setup alien to me. It won't get fu*ked up but I don't want to waste time making discoverys that the forum can warn me about.

"Be aware that while all audio tracks are delay compensated I dont beleive groups are." - is that true?? Why? How the hell are you supposed to work with that?
Old 24th June 2005
  #10
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XHipHop's Avatar
On Logic 7 and 7.1 there is latency compensation on the busses.

ANd i believe that if you get the DAWsum cd the Logic and PT mixes are identical.
Old 24th June 2005
  #11
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PhilE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop
On Logic 7 and 7.1 there is latency compensation on the busses.

ANd i believe that if you get the DAWsum cd the Logic and PT mixes are identical.
Version 6? I think thats what they have there... good to hear that the summing is sorted on logic now cos that was a horrible problem in the past.
Old 24th June 2005
  #12
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adamcal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilE
"the logic ITB is fine, every bit as good as PT if not better"

Not unless theyve changed it a lot since v.4 and you seem to be missing my point- I do very little bussing in PT normally.
I don't think it can be called making too much of it considering it is a setup alien to me. It won't get fu*ked up but I don't want to waste time making discoverys that the forum can warn me about.

"Be aware that while all audio tracks are delay compensated I dont beleive groups are." - is that true?? Why? How the hell are you supposed to work with that?
well people managed in pro tools with no delay compensation anywhere up untill only recently when the put it in.

and secondly its only going to screw you up if you happen to group things in logic AND put a plugin on the group AND its a plugin that causes delay (not all do)

and I didnt say your question was making too much of it, just some of the replies.
Old 24th June 2005
  #13
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Igotsoul4u's Avatar
I have logic 6 and i think the mix bus sounds great. Its definetly a step above protools.
Old 24th June 2005
  #14
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Tom VDH's Avatar
 

Groups in Logic 7 have delay compensation on all plugs BUT the Adaptive limiter...
It's delay compensated when inserted on individual tracks though.
For a rock project, I'd feel more comfortable with an OTB mix, but Logic will do it just fine if you have the right picture in your mind.
(I work on Logic 7.1, use it for tracking and, depending on the project, mixing)

My .02 cents. Cheers,

Tom VDH
Old 24th June 2005
  #15
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilE
If I go easy in Logic and on the desk its gonna be a quiet old mix for rock too isnt it? Have I misunderstood?

if you misunderstood it's because i wasn't overly clear. the idea was to go easy in logic IF you're summing in logic, otherwise it's better to keep the mackie faders lower and have logic's faders closer to unity because they have a far finer resolution there. iow, around unity you can adjust in 0.2db increments, but down at -15 you have something like .8db increments.

the thing about the mackie is that it doesn't have a lot of headroom, and when you start tapping it out it gets harsh fast, all the wrong kinds of distortion. mackie's eq sucks @ss imo, and it also eats up more headroom. stick with plugs for that, they're better anyway, and use some badass analog 2buss compression to restore the attitude and makeup for playing safe on the desk levels.

as mentioned, logic 6 does not have delay compensation on the busses/auxes, so watch out when doing parallel compression or any multing where a plug introduces latency on one channel --- recombining will be phase hell.

to the one poster concerned with people making too much of stuff, i'm an advocate of knowing the ins and outs, and especially the strengths and limitations, of your system... doubly so for a pro gig where you're being paid for your expertise. this is all just info, use it or ignore it at your leisure, but the idea is not to prevent music from getting recorded; the idea is to make the music sound as good as possible.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 24th June 2005
  #16
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seb37000's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XHipHop
I mix in Logic often and would prefer the sound to the Mackie bus (even though I've never done Fletcher's trick of keeping the master fader low and using a nice preamp to bring the gain up). I usually stem my Logic tracks to a Neotek Elite but in the box works fine too...just stay away from the multiband compressor plugin (it has stereo issues!).
I'm interested about fletcher's "trick" anyone know under what topic I can find this thread ?
Old 24th June 2005
  #17
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilE
I am going to be doing a mix 2mo at a private studio- I would normally be going from tape or protools onto a large format console.
However, this will be Logic based. I am taking my fave comps and a couple of EQs with me (which I WILL be using) but am I best to keep my summing ITB or to use the Mackie 8-buss (analogue not D8B) that is there? I'm not goint to have much time so if the desk is a bad idea I don't want to waste time getting it set up to work that way.
Any thoughts? thanks guys.
Mixing on a Mackie 8 buss is not going to imrpove your sound quality. It is perfectly possible to mix in the box and get great results if you know what you are doing. save your money and use your time to perfect your mix ITB.

Regards


Roland
Old 24th June 2005
  #18
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
Mixing on a Mackie 8 buss is not going to imrpove your sound quality. It is perfectly possible to mix in the box and get great results if you know what you are doing. save your money and use your time to perfect your mix ITB.

Regards


Roland

i disagree... for my latest mix, i decided to put 4 stereo stems thru the mackie 8 buss, which i had previously just used for monitoring....

what i did was turn the master fader way WAY down, and made up the gain w. an Averill/Neve 3405... made the "sound" of the board go up around $5k....

and... it's alot more convenient... made me wish i had a REAL board... but overall, i felt i was hearing more thru the mackie than thru logic's stereo buss...

best thing is to try it both ways and see
Old 24th June 2005
  #19
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
i disagree... for my latest mix, i decided to put 4 stereo stems thru the mackie 8 buss, which i had previously just used for monitoring....

what i did was turn the master fader way WAY down, and made up the gain w. an Averill/Neve 3405... made the "sound" of the board go up around $5k....

and... it's alot more convenient... made me wish i had a REAL board... but overall, i felt i was hearing more thru the mackie than thru logic's stereo buss...

best thing is to try it both ways and see

No doubt doing that will improve the sound of the Mackie mix (they were never much cop on the mix buss, crowded out way too quickly), but they are still a bottom feeder board. You can track with a Mackie ok if you know what you are doing.

You may like the way it sounds doing it this way, more detail, in reality is very unlikely. It's no accident that of the last four major analogue console manufacturers , one has closed, another has pulled out completely of analogue consoles and the other two have been sold this month. In many ways I'm glad that its Gabriel and SAE that have bought SSL and Neve respectively as they are two of the few people that can probably afford to keep either company going on a not for profit basis (assuming they plan to continue high end analogue console production).

As I have said in these forums before, there are too many great engineers achieving great results working itb for it to be fluke. I respectfully suggest that those not getting their desired results this way are probably not approaching it correctly. The data obtained from Lynn Fuston's DAWSUM tests suggests that a lot of peoples perception is off base.

If you really want to get that "analogue summing box feel" I would suggest you mix ITB and then spend the money you saved on several days in the studio with a Mackie on 2-3 hours getting it really professionally mastered by a great mastering engineer. This would make a really noticeable improvement.


Regards



Roland
Old 24th June 2005
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seb37000
I'm interested about fletcher's "trick" anyone know under what topic I can find this thread ?
I believe Fletchers trick involves a large skewer!!!!!!!!!
Old 24th June 2005
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilE
Ahhh OK, thanks

I should add that this is a rock track I'm doing even though it isnt the rockiest of setups!
I am a little worried about the sound of logic's summing cos it was dodgy to my ears in v4 last one I used- but then the Mackies always sounded 'cold' to me in the past- but again its been years since I even touched one and that wasn't an 8-buss.
The issues has been cleared up since in Logic. Some people claim there are still issues when pushing it hard ITB, I've haven't tested it myself yet.

I don't like the Mackie d8b at all, I'd keep things in Logic any day.
Old 24th June 2005
  #22
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mersisblue's Avatar
 

wouldnt it be almost the same to just leave the board out of the chain and feed the DAW to the high end gain stage ?
Old 24th June 2005
  #23
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tomdarude's Avatar
can´t you borrow a dangerous2bus anywhere ???

a 2bus and a 1178(or SSL whatever ya like) for the drum-bus will be far better than the smackie
Old 25th June 2005
  #24
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Orren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom VDH
Groups in Logic 7 have delay compensation on all plugs BUT the Adaptive limiter...
Not true. Nobody would design delay compensation but selectively turn it off for certain plugs. Well, you could, but that would be silly.

Logic 7.0 had delay compensation for Audio Tracks and Audio Instrument tracks only. All plug-ins were compensated on Audio Tracks and Audio Instrument tracks. Logic 7.0 did not compensate bus/aux tracks.

Logic 7.1 features an "All" compensation mode. This mode delay compensates all audio channel types.

Trust me on this one.

Orren
Old 25th June 2005
  #25
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orren
Not true. Nobody would design delay compensation but selectively turn it off for certain plugs. Well, you could, but that would be silly.

orren,

i was under the impression that the adaptive limiter had some serious lookahead going on that was not compensated for... i only have logic 6, but it has pdc on audio tracks and the adaptive limiter has noticeable delay, but the idea is that it's a mastering plug more than a mix plug.

is that not the case with 7? am i just plain mistaken?


gregoire
del ubik
Old 25th June 2005
  #26
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Orren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
orren,

i was under the impression that the adaptive limiter had some serious lookahead going on that was not compensated for... i only have logic 6, but it has pdc on audio tracks and the adaptive limiter has noticeable delay, but the idea is that it's a mastering plug more than a mix plug.

is that not the case with 7? am i just plain mistaken?
Adaptive Limiter has a user-adjustable lookahead (click the "01010" button in the menu bar of the plug-in). But even at its highest setting, it fell comfortably within the margins of Logic's PDC.

Just be sure you don't have one on an output, and try to record. I've done that, most folks I know have done that, at least once!

Orren
Old 25th June 2005
  #27
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timtoonz's Avatar
FYI: The only ongoing problem with delay compensation in Logic 7.1 is that even in "ALL" mode, MIDI tracks are not delay compensated. You have to remember to either commit them to audio tracks, or manually delay them until you regain sync.

It'd be real nice if they'd fix this, but no word from Apple yet on whether they're concerned about this or not. I'm guessing 'not'.

PS. Nice to see you here, Orren. Haven't seen your prose since my rather unceremonious exit from the LUG so many months ago
Old 26th June 2005
  #28
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Orren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by timtoonz
FYI: The only ongoing problem with delay compensation in Logic 7.1 is that even in "ALL" mode, MIDI tracks are not delay compensated. You have to remember to either commit them to audio tracks, or manually delay them until you regain sync.
Yeah, that does suck. I believe that another option, sort of between the two, is to run all your MIDI tracks into the Logic mixer via Input Objects (meaning that you are not recording them, but you use input strips to bring in the audio output of the MIDI sound sources). I believe that at that point, they will be compensated with "ALL" mode. I've not tried it myself though--I have no more external MIDI left.

Quote:
PS. Nice to see you here, Orren.
Thanks!

Orren
Old 27th June 2005
  #29
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PhilE's Avatar
OK- well thanks guys, I think some people missed the point of my question- I was not hiring a studio, I was drafted in last minute cos they couldn't get what they wanted- it was all in Logic... which I don't know very well and haven't used since v4 at all, I certainly still don't like the interface on it (I think I've been using my PT mix3 for too long to understand ALL THOSE WINDOWS heh ) I used the Mackie in the end (it was the analogue NOT d8B) but kept it easy on the master and it was OK for sound but I found it very fiddly to do much of the stuff I wanted too, I found that the pots were very unstable across the board and hated the routing... mix came out OK though and everyone is delighted- going for mastering next week. However for the band's album that is coming up I am on board from the start and we'll be tracking to PT and mixing at my place with my desk, this will be much nicer for me!!
Old 27th June 2005
  #30
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PhilE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b i k
to the one poster concerned with people making too much of stuff, i'm an advocate of knowing the ins and outs, and especially the strengths and limitations, of your system... doubly so for a pro gig where you're being paid for your expertise. this is all just info, use it or ignore it at your leisure, but the idea is not to prevent music from getting recorded; the idea is to make the music sound as good as possible.


gregoire
del ubik
YES!! heh
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