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Wav Files Posted: Lavry vs Big Ben Clock
Old 19th June 2005
  #1
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Wav Files Posted: Lavry vs Big Ben Clock

Here are two mixes that I dithered to 16 bit wav, they are the exact same mix and printed exactly the same with the D/A being an Apogee DA16X and the A/D being the Lavry Blue. However, one of the mixes has the Apogee slaved to the Lavry, in other words, the Lavry is using its INTERNAL clock. The other, the Lavry is slaved to the Apogee, and uses the Big Ben style 777 clock.

here are the links
www.bangrecording.com/music/solc.wav

www.bangrecording.com/music/sold.wav

I'll post which is which soon.

Dan, thanks for making me want to go back an remix everything I've ever done in my life. The clarity and bigness of the BLUE is unbelievable, it sounds just like the live mix coming off the console. The Lynx II sounds like a big cloud in comparison, its going to be on its way to Jim Williams to put those LT opamps ASAP. Having said that, whats with the input gain trims on the front of the Blue? The initial setting was low so I went to turn them clockwise and realized that there are no detents and they JUST KEEP GOING AND GOING AND GOING! I think the above mixes have a slightly louder left channel then right. How do those things work? It seems like there is only a few stages of gain and it takes about two turns to get to each one? Please explain, Dan or anyone else who has a Blue who has messed with the gain trims.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #2
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Albert's Avatar
 

I believe the second mix is slightly louder than the first mix. My meters are also showing the left channels to be peaking slightly louder than the right.

1st mix peak: L -4.4, R -4.9
2nd mix peak: L -3.8, R -4.6

That said, my first impression was to prefer the sound of the second example. I don't think it has anything to do with the volume difference, the mix just sounds slightly bigger and more alive to me. However, on repeated listenings it gets harder to tell the mixes apart, they sort of start blending together, so I guess I'll stick with my first impression.
Old 19th June 2005
  #3
Nut
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Nut's Avatar
 

Hmmm

I liked the sound of the seond mix, but i fear that may have been due to the volume difference. Something did feel different though... unfortunatly my monitors are not exactly the best reference.

So yeah, i dont know which is which, but i liked the second one.
Old 19th June 2005
  #4
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norman_nomad's Avatar
Cool thread.

I prefer B. I'm suprised there was this much of a difference. The first thing I noticed was that the bass guitar sounded more resolute on mix B, and that the stereo imaging seemed to be pushed a bit wider. The transient response seemed better in B... listening just to the snare it sounds a bit less boxy. These are all just my initial first impressions listening on some nearfield Meyer speakers.
Old 19th June 2005
  #5
Throw me in the "B" crowd also for basically NN's reasons as well.

And I certainly see Albert's point - After looping it for a while, it almost seemed to wash - Came back after a few, and still liked "B" slightly better. All in all just seems more clear.

I'll keep my suspicions to myself for the moment... But I'm seriously looking forward to hearing what's what soon.
Old 19th June 2005
  #6
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thermos's Avatar
B also
the highs sound way clearer to me anyway.
Old 19th June 2005
  #7
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blaugruen7's Avatar
on my consumer da listening with headphones and my ears, there is no
difference.
Old 19th June 2005
  #8
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Sui_City's Avatar
 

B too.

Listening on my headphones, the bottom end sounds tighter, smoother, less muddy.

Can't wait to be called deaf!
Old 19th June 2005
  #9
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shangoe's Avatar
 

i like b better. very interesting thread, because i have the same setup, but only tried the lavry as masterclock. my cclock chain: lavry->rme9652->da16x

please tell us more about your setup, do mix on a console ore summingbox? and how is your soundcard connected to the clock?

thx!! thumbsup
Old 19th June 2005
  #10
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Setup is a Lynx II card with LS ADAT. The Lavry is hooked up to the AES of the Lynx. The Apogee is hooked to the LS ADAT. In both of these examples, I used a BNC world clock cable directly from either the Lavry wc out to the Apogee wc in or the reverse.

I haven't really listened all that close to the two examples because I'm still so hung up on how much better they sound then the Lynx. I don't know why the mixes aren't same level because all the automation didn't change. I mix out the DA 16X into a Midas 320 console and then record the mix back to the workstation via the Lavry. Again, if someone can explain those damn gain trims on the front, it would be glorious to have both my mix channels the same level!

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #11
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I just listened pretty intently at a moderate volume and the first thing I noticed is that these are pretty damn close imo. Having said that, the bass guitar in the first one is a bit bigger and was more present. The second had a tiny tiny bit less low mid on the whole mix (not that the first had too much). I'd be fine with either of these. If you all think B sounds better, then maybe I'll keep it on that clock but again, I'm not sure there is enough difference to matter to me. Both examples sound about 99% of what I heard coming live off the console which is what really matters I guess. I'll reveal which clock is which in a bit. Now for the love of God someone tell me what the f#ck is with those input trims!!

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
Having said that, whats with the input gain trims on the front of the Blue? The initial setting was low so I went to turn them clockwise and realized that there are no detents and they JUST KEEP GOING AND GOING AND GOING!
From the website's quick set-up guide:
Quote:
Use a small screwdriver to adjust the front panel 20-turn pots to bring the second pair of solidly lit lamps to coincide with the selected reference level.
Old 19th June 2005
  #13
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Have the Lavry Blue hooked to Lynx II too. The way the Lavry was originally set up seemed just right.
When I loop back into it I get same measures on the Lavrys A/D LEDs as indicated on the DAWs master fader. Don´t you?

Besides, the listening results would only count if the listeners all made sure to have aligned volume levels to exactly same measure.
Loudness lies.

Ruphus
Old 19th June 2005
  #14
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shangoe's Avatar
 

bang, sorry i cant comment the input pots, i never touched them and leave them in default position.

as i see your setup you have a third option you did not try: no clocking. run both converters with its own clock.when your system run stable this should be the best option as i understand dan lavry corectly. on my setup with the rme-card it was not possible for me to run it without clocking-chain, i had dropouts. this damn card wanted to be clocked somehow. maybe this lynx thing is way better.
Old 19th June 2005
  #15
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
The initial setting was low so I went to turn them clockwise and realized that there are no detents and they JUST KEEP GOING AND GOING AND GOING! I think the above mixes have a slightly louder left channel then right. How do those things work?
That's called a 'multi-turn pot'. It gives you greater and more exacting resolution to your calibration than something like the gain knob on a mic pre that only spins 270 degrees.

The way you set it up is to run a 1kHz tone at a known level [like +4dbv] into the front then set your level for "headroom below odbfs". Many of the classical guys like -20dbfs as their refrerence level, others prefer -18dbfs... it seems that the guys involved with more "modern" [spelled c-o-m-p-r-e-s-s-e-d] music usually run at like -14 or -12 dbfs. There is no standard, so pick whatever you like.

When you send your product out to be mastered I would recommend that you notate your reference level on the materials sent... but I'm sure very few do and I'm sure most mastering engineers have learned how to figure it out by now.

Printing tones still isn't a bad idea... but again, I'm sure few people do that anymore.

Peace.
Old 19th June 2005
  #16
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First off, the Lynx II on both of these examples was set to digital clock and seemed to operate fine. Seeing as it didn't do any A/D or D/A, I figure as long as it recognized a solid clock (it did) then its out of the sonic picture.

As for the default settings, mine were low. A signal that peaked at +12 on my Midas meters was peaking at +7 when recorded back to the DAW with the Lavry. When recording stuff back via the Lynx A/D, I got the same levels as the Midas meter. I just wish that the Lavry had DETENTED POTS so that I knew where I was. Ok I just read that thing via the website (thanks Brad) and thanks Fletcher, I'll set it up correctly now.

Any more comments on the wavs or should I spill the beans? As for the loudness differences, I assume that most of you can level out the second mix via fader or level pot. Shangoe, having two clocks in a digital chain spells trouble, I've always experienced good results when slaving everything to ONE clock.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood
From the website's quick set-up guide:
This didn't work for me. I went to reference mode, chose -14 via the Set knob... now from what it says, I should be able to turn the screws and the "second" set of lights which are on -50 should move and match the -14. They don't. They stay at -50. Guess I'll wait for Dan on this one.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #18
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Albert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
As for the loudness differences, I assume that most of you can level out the second mix via fader or level pot.
The whole point of an A/B comparison though is to be able to easily and instantly switch between two or more mixes. So the levels on the mixes really should be matched. Most people here seem to be preferring the second mix, and it is the louder mix.

Also, leveling out on our end wouldn't really work in this case because for some reason the level differences on the mix are different not only between mixes but between channels on each mix. For example, on the first mix the left channel peaks at .5dB louder than the right, but on the second mix the left channel peaks at .8dB louder than the right. There's no rule that says both sides have to peak at the same volume, but it does make comparisons difficult due to the "loudness factor".

I'm thinking at this point that the second mix is getting picked because it is louder. Can you do another run at these mixes and get them exactly level matched?
Old 19th June 2005
  #19
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obostic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
This didn't work for me. I went to reference mode, chose -14 via the Set knob... now from what it says, I should be able to turn the screws and the "second" set of lights which are on -50 should move and match the -14. They don't. They stay at -50. Guess I'll wait for Dan on this one.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Dumb question, but you are applying 1k sine tone at +4dBu to the input you need to adjust right?
Old 19th June 2005
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Vote for a (listened on computor though).
Old 19th June 2005
  #21
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paultools's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
I could do another sample but its meaningless to me because they are too close and it doesn't matter at this point, I think you can go with either clock and get good results.

Steve
If this is the case, then why do you want to go back and remix everything you ever did? I thought you meant there was a HUGE difference, but they sound identical to me over my little iBook speakers.
Old 19th June 2005
  #22
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Paul, I just got the Lavry. All my old mixes went through Lynx II A/D. When I said it doesn't matter, I meant whether I slave to the Lavry or Apogee clock. BTW, I'm posting another LEVEL matched test. I realize the error in the first. It appears I must have accidentally touched the master fader a hair... thats all I can imagine given the results. Stay tuned for twenty minutes..

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #23
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paultools's Avatar
 

OK, now I get it, my bad.
Old 19th June 2005
  #24
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ok new wavs

www.bangrecording.com/music/solc.wav

www.bangrecording.com/music/sold.wav

let me assure you there is NO way that there should be any level difference because I did the switch quickly with NO fader movements at all. So please listen one more time and lets see what you think. For some reason this time I hear more difference.

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 19th June 2005
  #25
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Try again now, sorry,

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com
Old 20th June 2005
  #26
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to my ears, 'd' sounded just a little fatter, warmer. liked it. i'm surprised i could hear any difference through laptop spkrs though!
Old 20th June 2005
  #27
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shangoe's Avatar
 

listen with my headphones i like d more....
Old 20th June 2005
  #28
D - I think... Get's odd after the distorted guitars kick in for some reason...
Old 20th June 2005
  #29
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

I think too the second one to have a tad more meat throughout the spectrum. Without having heard the new X series, but familiar with the Blue I would think the second one to be the Lavry. Guess I´m wrong though ... huh.

Ruphus
Old 20th June 2005
  #30
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Albert's Avatar
 

They are both really close, but I'm going to go with "d" as my preference. The hi hats seem slightly more defined to me, and in general the sound is just a little bit more open feeling. But it's really close.
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