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AMS-Neve's version of AWS900?
Old 16th June 2005
  #1
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clip6's Avatar
 

AMS-Neve's version of AWS900?

So Neve may be designing an AWS style console. What do you think they should build?
Old 16th June 2005
  #2
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XHipHop's Avatar
well, if they want it to be successful I think a key is getting it into a major chain store like SSL did.

Maybe in S(c)am (c)ash?

Even then I don't know how many they'd sell...the SSL has a lot going for it name-wise and due to the fact that the hiphop industry is what it is right now. I don't know how many hiphop producers are going to be convinced that they should spend $80,000 on any other brand board.
Old 16th June 2005
  #3
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clip6's Avatar
 

If the #'s keep growing on the AWS count Neve may build something. If you think SSL is hurting what about Neve?

Encore fader system with HUI.
Two mix comp?
Maybe retro style ie. 80 series.
Summing section?
Old 16th June 2005
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
If the #'s keep growing on the AWS count Neve may build something. If you think SSL is hurting what about Neve?
IMHO that's why i think they wouldn't build something. with AWS sales to date i'd assume SSL has easily broken even on this concept, R&D and all - so if someone steps up to the plate, all SSL has to do is drop the price... what would be icing on the cake for them, would be an uphill battle for the competition - i pretty much think SSL nailed it on this one (at the price range). they couldn't have picked a better time to release it.

BTW i have several 31102s and will soon be getting a coupla 1081s, so nothing against Neve -- with the way things are now i just doubt it'll happen.
Old 16th June 2005
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
So Neve may be designing an AWS style console. What do you think they should build?
Long post here, but at least check out the end for what I think would be AMS-Neve's best shot.

AMS-Neve has a few problems.

The first is that their stuff is always more money than the competition. You can get a better deal on a 9000 than an 88R, and the SSL 6 channel compressor is half the price of the Neve. When you're #2 by a significant margin, I'd think being a little more price competitive would help. If they come out with something that isn't comprelling but costs more, they're sunk.

Second is that the "Neve" stuff that is in demand comes from older 8000 series consoles and discrete electronics, and as shallow as it may be, the vintage or retro look. They're catching on with reissues of 1081s and the look of the new 6 channel comp.

Third is that they've lost so much ground in the past decade that they can't just come out with a predictable "me too" product and expect to make any headway. Their answer to the 9000 in the 88R was way too late and too litle when it came about. At the time it was on the drawing board I was working for a company that was in the market for one. We had one ordered even, until the tech stocks crashed and the owner went broke and paychecks turned to rubber... but that's another story. At one point they were talking about a more retro look with 8068 type curved bucket profile and a mix of classic Neve technology and trimmings and cutting edge modern technology. What we got basically looked like an evolution of the V with some remote Air Studios style preamps as an option. With the 9000 so entrenched after many years, something like th 88R didn't turn many heads, especially for more money. They can't make this mistake again and live to tell the tale.

So, what should they do? Trade on their biggest asset - the lure of the old stuff. Make the board look vintage and put sixteen 1081 modules in it (24 would make it too expensive), old knobs and all, and of course some auxes and faders and 8 bus assigns. On the other end, have the 5.1 monitor section, workstation control, a 33609 stereo bus comp, 24 channels of analog summing for your DAW (which could simply be 8 more XLR inputs in addition to the 16 input channels fed to the mix bus), and a couple stereo effect returns. And to trump the SSL, 4 channels of assignable compression for the input modules, also able to assign to and link with the bus comp for 5.1 mix compression. Not only could they sell these to "B" rooms and production suites, but people would buy these as sidecars to go next to their SSLs. It would be the cheapest way to get into a bunch of Neve modules and a 5.1 compressor, not to mention a controller for the pro tools rig all in one place. When all is said an done, make it $75k instead of SSLs $80k and watch the whole world talk like crazy about the thing. This would create waves and create sales.

AMS-Neve! Are you listening?
Old 16th June 2005
  #6
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Friggin brilliant.

-R
Old 16th June 2005
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
Friggin brilliant.

-R
No pun intended of course...
Old 16th June 2005
  #8
Gear Addict
 

I think if there going to compete with the aws there going to have a tough time... cause the AWS in some ways is a wierd product relatively cheap for big fish....but still too much $$$$ for the burgoning buisness of renegade boutique little studio's popping up all over the place.... It's kinda in the middle.......and if Neve can't do it cheaper....then it would be limited to a very select market...

I suppose if they did their version minus all the bells and whistles for what the AWS was originally supposed to sell for that would be more than welcome.. )) but I doub't it no doubt it will be expensive as everything else they make...and will be costly prohibitive....

"So, what should they do? Trade on their biggest asset - the lure of the old stuff. Make the board look vintage and put sixteen 1081 modules in it (24 would make it too expensive), old knobs and all, and of course some auxes and faders and 8 bus assigns. On the other end, have the 5.1 monitor section, workstation control, a 33609 stereo bus comp, 24 channels of analog summing for your DAW (which could simply be 8 more XLR inputs in addition to the 16 input channels fed to the mix bus), and a couple stereo effect returns. And to trump the SSL, 4 channels of assignable compression for the input modules, also able to assign to and link with the bus comp for 5.1 mix compression. Not only could they sell these to "B" rooms and production suites, but people would buy these as sidecars to go next to their SSLs. It would be the cheapest way to get into a bunch of Neve modules and a 5.1 compressor, not to mention a controller for the pro tools rig all in one place. When all is said an done, make it $75k instead of SSLs $80k and watch the whole world talk like crazy about the thing. This would create waves and create sales."

I like this idea.....
Old 16th June 2005
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Portico Mixer.........?????

Actually what I really have hopes for.......Not AMS Neve but..... Mr.Rupert Neve himself putting out a Portico.....Mixer with all the "Neve sound at a fraction of the price of the AWS or the projected AWS aws competitor... and bring sanity back to the market..and save all of us gearslutz from debt... ))
Old 16th June 2005
  #10
Neve has one... bit it's digital.... =()

The thing with the AWS900 is the surface mount components and building technicues. I bet SSL build an AWS in a 2-3 days. Compare that to Neve when they build the VR and VX consoles, took 'em 3 months. (an 88R is three weeks and surface mount)

Neve should design a small 8-16-24 module sidecar console that looks vintage 1081 style, but do it all surface mount to keep the costs down....add a simpler master section than the AWS and more compressors of course.

Neve with Encore already have the Protools HUI controls, so that shouldn't be any problems. Just use a cheaper moving fader. Quote from Neve's web site:

"The Encore+ Star Command control system enables automated control of connected Pro Tools™ systems, including plug ins, from the console surface via HUI™. The console can also control Nuendo. Star Command also implements the Oasis™ standard which gives tight and comprehensive control over Pyramix™ workstations. Multiple DAWs can be controlled from a single desk. No new hardware is required."

Cheers,
Lindell
Attached Thumbnails
AMS-Neve's version of AWS900?-mmc12.jpg  
Old 16th June 2005
  #11
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A surface mount module that looks like a 1081 is just window dressing. I don't think this is the right compromise to make. It would definitely turn me off.
Old 16th June 2005
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunn
A surface mount module that looks like a 1081 is just window dressing. I don't think this is the right compromise to make. It would definitely turn me off.
Ooh, so you don't like the Neve 88R, SSL XL9000, Amek 9098i then? They must suck because they all using surface mount technique....
Old 16th June 2005
  #13
Small footprint is important these days..

It would need to get through project studio doors and NOT require a crane to lift it in.

The SSL AWS 900 is an interesting benchmark.

Did you know that in Europe it is available in 8, 16 & 24 ch flavors? (with blanking panels supplied)

Jules
Old 16th June 2005
  #14
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SnakeCained's Avatar
 

It's not really an AMS-Neve Market this "low end" thing.

Their biggest business is the post and film market where digital is king.

I still can't see why anyone would buy an AWS over a used G+ !!!

Footprint? The AWS looks like a posh Mackie (expect to be abused fopr that statement!)

I have actually mixed on an AWS and it is good and sounds like an SSL (apart from the lack of dynamics and gates).

AMS could do anything but it would cost. For example a 24 channel 1073 desk with a 5.1 comp and baisc DAW controll would cost them about £ 30 k just to build and that excludes the time to do it.

The question you should ask is what ever happened to teh Neve designed AMEK DAW controller??? I saw the protypes and they must have ended up somewhere!
Old 16th June 2005
  #15
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Sorry Lindell, I didn't know the K used surface mount. I had suspected that the AWS 900 did. Good surface mount design (obviously from listening to these desks) can sound great, but it isn't always the case. If it's done right from the start, than there's nothing wrong with it.

I'm just saying that it's not a 1081 anymore if it's surface mount, so why make it look like one?
Old 16th June 2005
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeCained
I still can't see why anyone would buy an AWS over a used G+ !!!
it's small, a DAW controller and IMHO it sounds better.
Old 16th June 2005
  #17
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
So Neve may be designing an AWS style console. What do you think they should build?
What do I think they should build?

A Speck "LiLo" with a rack full of outboard gear and some great D/A converters... license the D/A's from another company, add some 1084's to the program, add a couple rows of patchbay and figure out a way to make it worth $80k...
Old 16th June 2005
  #18
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clip6's Avatar
 

raal-- SSL does not drop prices. They are not Digidesign. If you call SSL today they will still quote you 250k for a new 4048G. They had a 4032G in stock from a canceled order and it was 165k. I don't want SSL or Neve to chase price just give me my monies worth.

jayfrigo--that's what I was thinking when I said retro style. We all want a tracking console with DAW control Neve has the moduels and the fader system. Make it modular so people can build to their budget and add modules over time. I agree with what you said.

AnalogBob--I agree the AWS is too expensive for most small studios. In the last isssue of PSN Tyresse Gibbins bought two for his house. As you say big fish are buying the console. Also in PSN Mr. Neve has said that the Portico is his entry level line with two more to follow. Portico means entry way or door hence the name of the line. So the console may come out of the last line.$$$$

Lindell--how many VXS consoles in the world? Are you going to upgrade to the Encore Plus system with HUI? I think the MMC12 is $120k?

SnakeCained--I agree I'd rather have a G+ also.
Old 16th June 2005
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
Lindell-- Are you going to upgrade to the Encore Plus system with HUI?
.
No way...... =)
Old 16th June 2005
  #20
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Plush's Avatar
I'm astounded at the suggestions--and NOT in a good way.

I would never purchase a console just because its retro look appealed to me.
That's crap . . .

You guys are crazy and you don't understand the core market of AMS Neve.

They ALREADY make a hardware controller.

Dream on. . .Neve is selling BIG TIME to Holly/Bollywood film studios.

They are certainly NOT second place in sound quality.

SSL has a LONG way to go to match Neve sound quality.
SSL is a convenience device.
Old 16th June 2005
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
I would never purchase a console just because its retro look appealed to me.
That's crap . . .
The point is not just the look, but the real 1081s. That's what people want. And silly as it may be, the vintage look helps sales in the marketplace. You can hate it, but you can't ignore it if you're in the business of selling gear.

Quote:
You guys are crazy and you don't understand the core market of AMS Neve.
I understand it well enough to know the current model is outdated and the market drying up.

Quote:
They ALREADY make a hardware controller.
Not exactly a high profile item flying off the shelves.

Quote:
Dream on. . .Neve is selling BIG TIME to Holly/Bollywood film studios.
Terrible market. Very limited number of customers who, once sold, won't buy again for a long time. Harrison is major competition in this market as well, and the expensive large format desks are disapperaing for Digi Icons. Look at Lucasfilm and Episode III. If they put all their eggs in this basket, they're in trouble.

Quote:
SSL has a LONG way to go to match Neve sound quality.
SSL is a convenience device.
That mantra meant something 15 years ago. Even if it's still true, which I'm not sure it is comparing 9000K to 88R, the marketplace has spoken, like it or not. If AMS-Neve wants to follow the VHS-Beta model and disappear complaining that they were better but nobody cared, then fine. If they actually want to compete in the marketplace, they have to produce something that people want at a price they're willing to pay.

Reality is not always pretty, but in ths case, it could be, with a bunch of 1081s in a little console. Almost all the pieces they need are already developed and in production. Should be a slam dunk. They could make it a little cheaper by shortloading, making an entry level stereo version with only 12 1081s and 2 channels of comp, using DB25s for the I/O instead of XLRs, and things like that. Still, it would attract attention and not just be vintage window dressing but a very serious product at a great price with a wide range of potential buyers. This could improve their footing and market share considerably.
Old 16th June 2005
  #22
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Plush's Avatar
for Jay and others. . .

My comments were made from the perspective of a freak of the indushtry in classical music recording. Fidelity first without the bright sound of SSL!

It's true that all the building blocks (1081's) are ready and available. Why not just buy the number of 1081's you require and route through a passive line mixer (build to taste) and use that? They don't need to make the console for you.

OR--purchase a console with 1081's and refurb it--much less than new. Call Funky Junk in London.

To wit: the music side of LucasFilm has already installed an 88R.

Best from Chicago,

Hudsonek
Old 16th June 2005
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
for Jay and others. . .

My comments were made from the perspective of a freak of the indushtry in classical music recording. Fidelity first without the bright sound of SSL!

It's true that all the building blocks (1081's) are ready and available. Why not just buy the number of 1081's you require and route through a passive line mixer (build to taste) and use that? They don't need to make the console for you.

OR--purchase a console with 1081's and refurb it--much less than new. Call Funky Junk in London.

To wit: the music side of LucasFilm has already installed an 88R.

Best from Chicago,

Hudsonek
While I do like working on the 9000, I really like the 88R as well, so I'm just playing devil's advocate from the business side of things. As far as an individual building a little 1081 sidecar, or refurbing an old small mixer, sure, one could do that, but that misses the point of the integrated DAW control and monitoring all in one place, plus a new product that doesn't need a lot of maintenence and time, labor, and expertise putting it together. Im talking about something Neve could make without too much trouble that would be very good for publicity and sales, and would actually be a product that we wouldn't mind seeing around. It's not just something I and others would like to have; it's something that would be beneficial to Neve and a welcome addition to the marketplace. If they do something at this level, it can't be a boring "me too" come-lately product. That does no good for anybody.
Old 16th June 2005
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush
...

To wit: the music side of LucasFilm has already installed an 88R.

...
And almost every scoring stage in the US (with the exclusion of Parmount) has put in a new analog moving-fader-automated console. They of course won't go digital because of latency.

A somewhat limited market, though.
Old 16th June 2005
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
raal-- SSL does not drop prices. They are not Digidesign. If you call SSL today they will still quote you 250k for a new 4048G. They had a 4032G in stock from a canceled order and it was 165k. I don't want SSL or Neve to chase price just give me my monies worth.
SSL isn't Digi but they are in the same business. when any product enters the market agressively aiming to get positioned, the thing that is looked for 1st and foremost, is to break even - once that point is reached the co. (any company) is in the position to drop prices if necessary -- all i'm saying is at this point they have that option. i have no idea what their business plan is - and of course now, they have no reason to drop prices. any new competitor on the other hand, if entering the market would have to enter at a lower price point if they intended to get part of the pie, so their recouperation would necessarily be slower.

my point simply was that the longer anyone takes to enter the market with a like-product, the stronger SSL's foothold on the marketplace will be. after the headway SSL has already made, and the niche for a console at that price point being small, i don't think it's likely to see someone stepping up to the plate. of course i may be wrong.
Old 16th June 2005
  #26
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DirkB's Avatar
My thoughts (for any large console manufacturer):

I want a modular system, 24ch to start with, but 48ch should be possible.
I want standard:
- 24 automated faders, units of 8 to be added as you wish
- 8 aux sends
- 8 buss
- master section with monitoring
- channel metering
- this thing should be designed as a console: frame, armrest, metering

That's all for starters: I want aux's, faders, bussing and summing.
Everything else modular and upgradable as options....

The basic version should cost 25k for 24channels and then of course it's something like $500-1000 per preamp/eq/compression module.

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 16th June 2005
  #27
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tomdarude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
My thoughts (for any large console manufacturer):

I want a modular system, 24ch to start with, but 48ch should be possible.
I want standard:
- 24 automated faders, units of 8 to be added as you wish
- 8 aux sends
- 8 buss
- master section with monitoring
- channel metering
- this thing should be designed as a console: frame, armrest, metering

That's all for starters: I want aux's, faders, bussing and summing.
Everything else modular and upgradable as options....

The basic version should cost 25k for 24channels and then of course it's something like $500-1000 per preamp/eq/compression module.

Greetings,
Dirk


PERFECT !!!
you nailed it! I´d get one immediatly....
and the monitorfader would be a big torqouise knob .... and across the master-section would be written "Cranesong"

I´d add 8 Wunder peq1´s & 8 Api512 ...and later maybe 8 more motorfaders

that would be the beast !!!
Old 16th June 2005
  #28
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DrDeltaM's Avatar
 

ADT.

http://www.adt-audio.com
Old 17th June 2005
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
My thoughts (for any large console manufacturer):

I want a modular system, 24ch to start with, but 48ch should be possible.
I want standard:
- 24 automated faders, units of 8 to be added as you wish
- 8 aux sends
- 8 buss
- master section with monitoring
- channel metering
- this thing should be designed as a console: frame, armrest, metering

That's all for starters: I want aux's, faders, bussing and summing.
Everything else modular and upgradable as options....

The basic version should cost 25k for 24channels and then of course it's something like $500-1000 per preamp/eq/compression module.

Greetings,
Dirk
you want all this (assuming it's low noise, w/ample headroom and great sounding) + TR and automation for $25K? i do too!
Old 17th June 2005
  #30
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clip6's Avatar
 

DrDeltaM-- those guys sure do have a product lineup. "ADT" Have you used any of their stuff? Never heard of them thanks for the link. Also I thought the Tonelux idea was orginal.
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