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AMS-Neve's version of AWS900?
Old 17th June 2005
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clip6
DrDeltaM-- those guys sure do have a product lineup. "ADT" Have you used any of their stuff? Never heard of them thanks for the link. Also I thought the Tonelux idea was orginal.
No, i haven't used myself. I have emailed with them in the past, seem nice guys. Lindell (high end mod) is gonna check them out soon I believe.
ADT is very clean and hifi according to remarks from users.
Old 19th June 2005
  #32
MGA
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Hi everyone,

Personally I think there is going to be a real chance that AMS Neve releasing an alternative product to the SSL AWS 900 especially since SAE's Tom Misner has bought AMS Neve and in fact it states on the AMS Neve web site that they will be releasing new products. What they are will be anybody's guess. My only worry is that AMS Neve (ie the new owner SAE) has consulted their students, both current and ex, as opposed the real working professionals out there using Neve gear day in and out to pay the rent.

I agreed with DirkB's wish list. I think what would fit in with there current manufacturing model would be if it was expandable in blocks of 12. I believe the V series and 88R are built around 12 channel blocks (ie 36, 48, 60, 72 channel consoles etc) and I think that starting at 12 channels and faders is far more useful than 8 channels and faders IMHO. Getting to 24 channels should cost less in the long run than at 2 purchases as opposed to 3 purchases if they were in blocks of 8. Keeping the EQ the same as the 88R should as help cost wise and fit in with their manufacturing model.

Here's some suggestions to add to DirkB's wish list:
*Why not have the pre amps remote controllable. 1081R product already exists (no R & D to pay off), you have 3 different types of pre amp flavours in 1081, 1073 and AIR modules and you can build them up as your needs and budget grows. If you just want that Neve sound for a mix room only then you don't have to pay for something you don't need.
*How about having a your buss and direct outputs switchable between class A 1272 style outputs and class AB. thumbsup
* A choice of metering, VUs or LED.

Its all there, HUI control, pre amps, EQ etc. Whether it looks like a 8068 or any other classic Neve console in styling is irrelevent to me, but would be nice.

Anyone else got any thoughts?
Old 19th June 2005
  #33
Here for the gear
 

I heard that Neve has been bought by SAE College. These guys are fast - watch them come out with new products. I ustu work for them a few years ago.

Interesting times!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfrigo
Long post here, but at least check out the end for what I think would be AMS-Neve's best shot.

AMS-Neve has a few problems.

The first is that their stuff is always more money than the competition. You can get a better deal on a 9000 than an 88R, and the SSL 6 channel compressor is half the price of the Neve. When you're #2 by a significant margin, I'd think being a little more price competitive would help. If they come out with something that isn't comprelling but costs more, they're sunk.

Second is that the "Neve" stuff that is in demand comes from older 8000 series consoles and discrete electronics, and as shallow as it may be, the vintage or retro look. They're catching on with reissues of 1081s and the look of the new 6 channel comp.

Third is that they've lost so much ground in the past decade that they can't just come out with a predictable "me too" product and expect to make any headway. Their answer to the 9000 in the 88R was way too late and too litle when it came about. At the time it was on the drawing board I was working for a company that was in the market for one. We had one ordered even, until the tech stocks crashed and the owner went broke and paychecks turned to rubber... but that's another story. At one point they were talking about a more retro look with 8068 type curved bucket profile and a mix of classic Neve technology and trimmings and cutting edge modern technology. What we got basically looked like an evolution of the V with some remote Air Studios style preamps as an option. With the 9000 so entrenched after many years, something like th 88R didn't turn many heads, especially for more money. They can't make this mistake again and live to tell the tale.

So, what should they do? Trade on their biggest asset - the lure of the old stuff. Make the board look vintage and put sixteen 1081 modules in it (24 would make it too expensive), old knobs and all, and of course some auxes and faders and 8 bus assigns. On the other end, have the 5.1 monitor section, workstation control, a 33609 stereo bus comp, 24 channels of analog summing for your DAW (which could simply be 8 more XLR inputs in addition to the 16 input channels fed to the mix bus), and a couple stereo effect returns. And to trump the SSL, 4 channels of assignable compression for the input modules, also able to assign to and link with the bus comp for 5.1 mix compression. Not only could they sell these to "B" rooms and production suites, but people would buy these as sidecars to go next to their SSLs. It would be the cheapest way to get into a bunch of Neve modules and a 5.1 compressor, not to mention a controller for the pro tools rig all in one place. When all is said an done, make it $75k instead of SSLs $80k and watch the whole world talk like crazy about the thing. This would create waves and create sales.

AMS-Neve! Are you listening?
Old 19th June 2005
  #34
Here for the gear
 

I work in a large studio right now and did work for SAE (guest lecturing) and I know that they are asking professionals in studios for their input into new products. **** this new guy at Neve is fast. I don't know if they are also asking students.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGA
Hi everyone,

Personally I think there is going to be a real chance that AMS Neve releasing an alternative product to the SSL AWS 900 especially since SAE's Tom Misner has bought AMS Neve and in fact it states on the AMS Neve web site that they will be releasing new products. What they are will be anybody's guess. My only worry is that AMS Neve (ie the new owner SAE) has consulted their students, both current and ex, as opposed the real working professionals out there using Neve gear day in and out to pay the rent.

I agreed with DirkB's wish list. I think what would fit in with there current manufacturing model would be if it was expandable in blocks of 12. I believe the V series and 88R are built around 12 channel blocks (ie 36, 48, 60, 72 channel consoles etc) and I think that starting at 12 channels and faders is far more useful than 8 channels and faders IMHO. Getting to 24 channels should cost less in the long run than at 2 purchases as opposed to 3 purchases if they were in blocks of 8. Keeping the EQ the same as the 88R should as help cost wise and fit in with their manufacturing model.

Here's some suggestions to add to DirkB's wish list:
*Why not have the pre amps remote controllable. 1081R product already exists (no R & D to pay off), you have 3 different types of pre amp flavours in 1081, 1073 and AIR modules and you can build them up as your needs and budget grows. If you just want that Neve sound for a mix room only then you don't have to pay for something you don't need.
*How about having a your buss and direct outputs switchable between class A 1272 style outputs and class AB. thumbsup
* A choice of metering, VUs or LED.

Its all there, HUI control, pre amps, EQ etc. Whether it looks like a 8068 or any other classic Neve console in styling is irrelevent to me, but would be nice.

Anyone else got any thoughts?
Old 19th June 2005
  #35
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Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
My thoughts (for any large console manufacturer):

I want a modular system, 24ch to start with, but 48ch should be possible.
I want standard:
- 24 automated faders, units of 8 to be added as you wish
- 8 aux sends
- 8 buss
- master section with monitoring
- channel metering
- this thing should be designed as a console: frame, armrest, metering

That's all for starters: I want aux's, faders, bussing and summing.
Everything else modular and upgradable as options....

The basic version should cost 25k for 24channels and then of course it's something like $500-1000 per preamp/eq/compression module.

Greetings,
Dirk
Uhhhhh.... if you don't want automated faders, mic pre's and EQ's and dynamics on every channel then something like you described is an attainable goal... however, if you do want automated faders, and pre's/EQ's/dynamics that don't sound like complete ass, it is not an attainable goal.

The console you described, if it's going to be worth half a damn, is at very minimum about $2500 per strip and at least $10k for the frame, power supplies, motherboards, stand, armrest, meterbridge, etc.

You can probably find things like used SSL's in the price range you mentioned... but then you're looking at maintenance issues, a whole slew of rather ****ty sounding mic amps... EQ of questionable capability [you might be able to find one with 242 or 02air EQ's... or not], and dynamics that work fine for gates but the compressors kinda suck ass.

One of the reasons no one is building a desk like you just outlined is because it's not feasible. Behringer could probably do it... but chances are it would sound like all the other Behringer crap... and would you really spend $25k on anything Behringer?

There is an 8 channel expander for the Speck LiLo that can bring it to 24 faders [with pan], with 24 additional returns [it runs dual, independent signal paths] for a total of 48 inputs... there are two mix busses, 4 aux sends [and returns], mute, solo in place and a bunch of other stuff you can setup/route on the desk. I'd put up a picture of the strip but it's kinda big and I think it would be kinda obnoxious to take up that much space with it... but here's a link to the input module and a link to the master section... you can get the whole 48 input desk for around $13,000... which would leave you a $12,000 budget for you to choose your own mic-pre's EQ's and dynamics processing.

BTW... this thing has the depth, dimension, and audio quality of a real desk... this ain't some Soundcraft piece of ****. I'm not really big on the whole "famous user" bull****... but the US Library of Congress has some pretty high standards for the hardware they purchase... they're looking at picking up 10 of the 16 channel version of the Lilo http://www.speck.com/lilo/lilo.shtml

Sorry if I got pedantic with this... it's just that I've been around the design/manufacturing aspect long enough to know what kinda can and can't be done on what kind of budgets and still sound great [not just move signal around, but actually move it around well... a Soundcraft will move signal around just fine... but is that all you want in terms of audio quality?]
Old 19th June 2005
  #36
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DirkB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher
Uhhhhh.... if you don't want automated faders, mic pre's and EQ's and dynamics on every channel then something like you described is an attainable goal... however, if you do want automated faders, and pre's/EQ's/dynamics that don't sound like complete ass, it is not an attainable goal.

The console you described, if it's going to be worth half a damn, is at very minimum about $2500 per strip and at least $10k for the frame, power supplies, motherboards, stand, armrest, meterbridge, etc.

You can probably find things like used SSL's in the price range you mentioned... but then you're looking at maintenance issues, a whole slew of rather ****ty sounding mic amps... EQ of questionable capability [you might be able to find one with 242 or 02air EQ's... or not], and dynamics that work fine for gates but the compressors kinda suck ass.

One of the reasons no one is building a desk like you just outlined is because it's not feasible. Behringer could probably do it... but chances are it would sound like all the other Behringer crap... and would you really spend $25k on anything Behringer?

There is an 8 channel expander for the Speck LiLo that can bring it to 24 faders [with pan], with 24 additional returns [it runs dual, independent signal paths] for a total of 48 inputs... there are two mix busses, 4 aux sends [and returns], mute, solo in place and a bunch of other stuff you can setup/route on the desk. I'd put up a picture of the strip but it's kinda big and I think it would be kinda obnoxious to take up that much space with it... but here's a link to the input module and a link to the master section... you can get the whole 48 input desk for around $13,000... which would leave you a $12,000 budget for you to choose your own mic-pre's EQ's and dynamics processing.

BTW... this thing has the depth, dimension, and audio quality of a real desk... this ain't some Soundcraft piece of ****. I'm not really big on the whole "famous user" bull****... but the US Library of Congress has some pretty high standards for the hardware they purchase... they're looking at picking up 10 of the 16 channel version of the Lilo http://www.speck.com/lilo/lilo.shtml

Sorry if I got pedantic with this... it's just that I've been around the design/manufacturing aspect long enough to know what kinda can and can't be done on what kind of budgets and still sound great [not just move signal around, but actually move it around well... a Soundcraft will move signal around just fine... but is that all you want in terms of audio quality?]
I think you're right, but you're talking about combining todays' technology. I'm hoping for someone, based on an available mark which I believe could be very interesting, to find new ways to provide solutions for customers. In product development, developing products that are based on what's already possible, can only last a couple of years, then new inventions, further evolution of technology and better engineering is necessary to develop new products that raise the bar. Look at the car industry: every 7 years you get 10% better of everything for basically the same price (disregaring annual devaluation).

I'm waiting for a large format console manufacturar to REALLY combine digital and analogue technology based on both their strenghts.
So: I want analogue routing and summing, with aux's and if possible automation and instant recall. Any preamp/eq/compressor should be an option, because most of us have already quite a collection and just don't need it.

For this to becaume reality, new ideas are necessary. And of course, the first console manufacturar who is able to do it, will be able to set the price, but after that, more will folow and I believe the price range I mentioned should be possible. However, I do not have information about anual revenues and R&D budget, so I don't know if the current manufacturars will be able to put in the design effort (which could be anything from 30-300manyears of R&D effort which basically means that about 70million-7billion on revenues are needed to justify the effort)....

But who knows, perhaps Peter Gabriel can inspire some designers over at SSL who already are thinking in the right direction with the AWS, but (as far as I'm concerned) not far enough yet.

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 19th June 2005
  #37
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Oh and BTW, I want the fader automation to be modular too heh . I only need automation to be done analogue when I'm patching in outboard. If not, then my sequencer automation is just fine. I think 8 faders of analogue automation on a 48ch desk is fine for me to start with...

I think I already mentioned it, but it needs to look like a cool big console ;-). Although some nice fit into some of the argosy desks is fine for me too (saves about 2-4FTE on R&D )

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 19th June 2005
  #38
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Yeah... and I want a pony.
Old 19th June 2005
  #39
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Jeez, Fletcher really doesn't like Soundcraft eh! I personally think that their non surface-mount consoles are not so horrible sounding. Internally the modules are not all that different from an SSL design to be quite honest. The eq is not nearly as flexible though, and it doesn't sound like an SSL eq.

Yes, and the mix bus probably craps out with lots of channels, right?

Anyway, since this thread is about the AMS Neve thing, I'll get back to that. The reason SSL is able to sell the AWS 900 for under $100,000 is that it's a one-size-fits-all design. They didn't have to spend a bunch of money to design and manufacture somehting modular.

Still, I'm sure it's possible for AMS Neve to design a modular, budget desk. But I don't think it will be any cheaper than the AWS 900. If you're looking for moving faders and all that for cheap, maybe they'll come out with a digital desk like the Sony DMX R100 (and finish it! dfegad Sony).

It's just that digitally-controlled analog is not the cheapest thing to do. A digital desk is much more economical to build with all the bells and whistles. I'm eager to see what they do come out with.
Old 19th June 2005
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunn
It's just that digitally-controlled analog is not the cheapest thing to do. A digital desk is much more economical to build with all the bells and whistles. I'm eager to see what they do come out with.
C200 is just that - but IMHO any digital desk will be obsolete in a coupla years - a good analog desk is a far better investment, and sounds better too! for broadcast and post, sure digital's fine. but for music studios and guys at home (gearslutz) IMHO it'll still be analog for awhile. i defintiely know it'll be analog for me - even if they could correct the latency issue, i'd still pick analog.
Old 20th June 2005
  #41
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunn
I personally think that their non surface-mount consoles are not so horrible sounding. Internally the modules are not all that different from an SSL design to be quite honest.
Uhhhh... there is more to a desk than just the modules [and I don't doubt that they're similar to the pre-surface mount SSL stuff... Soundcraft was the #1 consumer of 5534 chips in the world, SSL was #2].

However, things like grounding, mix buss headroom, frequency response of the design, yada, yada, yada are quite different. There were two Soundcraft desks that were indeed worth a ****... I forget their model numbers but I think one of them had a "12" in it... not the 1200, that was a total piece of ****, it was something like the SF-12 [which I know is a Royer number and not a Soundcraft number but for the life of me I can't remember the number on the Soundcraft desk that didn't suck].

The real early Series II Soundcraft consoles were OK too... but given the option I took a Yamaha PM-2000 over it in a side by side taste test.
Old 20th June 2005
  #42
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Ive come across that site before- the ADt thing - why does no-one know anything about them? I'd love to know what people think. A manuracturer making worthwhile gear that hasn't had it's value cranked up by reputation and ebay yet would be great- even calrec and Audix prices are getting silly!
Old 20th June 2005
  #43
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I've seen some ADT stuff on ebay actually, unless I'm confusing it with something similar. From the looks of it, I thought it was an old company, out of business. I'll check out that site.

Anyway, I'm sure AMS Neve will come up with something interesting.
Old 20th June 2005
  #44
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Fletcher please don't say you mean the TS12? - the ****tiest console I ever had the pleasure to work on.

Jo
Old 20th June 2005
  #45
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PaRaNoId's Avatar
 

If I had the budget I would definitely go Lilo....
For tracking i could use the sends for cans, etc (duh) ride the analog fader alwhist using a few OB pres, EQ, comps, etc
For Mixdown U could still use he DAW's automation With the Lilo's summing, inserts and panning, etc. Of course U would still need a bunch of tight D-A and A-D to make the whole idea fully fruitful . Unless u are using tape.....hmmm yummy
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