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Waves SSL channel question
Old 6th December 2008
  #1
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wildhoney's Avatar
 

Waves SSL channel question

I just got this package, and while it took almost no time to make it sound great, I'm a little confused at the metering/gain staging. Maybe this is just b/c I haven't spent a ton of time on SSL boards, but it seems like even if I crank the input level up to where it's just clipping on the meter, it's still not enough gain to really push the compressor hard even with the threshold all the way down, even with the ratio at medium to extreme settings. The compressor is hitting about 6db of reduction on the compressor meter at the peaks, with the threshold WAY down. And attack is set on auto mode. Meantime, the whole plug-in is clipping and turning red in the mixer window which is making me paranoid about digital clip noise, even though I'm not really hearing any. Can anybody enlighten me as to what I'm missing here? Is zero on the input meter really a true digital 0db or is there headroom beyond the top of the meter and should I be driving the input harder?
Old 23rd January 2009
  #2
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GREENFENDR's Avatar
I've been noticing the same issue with all the waves studio classics stuff, I've been working on tdm and rtas, It seems that even the slightest boost on eq and the clip light goes on. The compressors in the bundle seem almost worthless, if you abide by the clip light.

I've been having the same paranoia, but I don't hear any digital clipping.

is anyone else finding this hard to deal with?

also, an unrelated gripe... the 'analog' button passes a low noise even when theres not audio going through it.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #3
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Benmrx's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildhoney View Post
attack is set on auto mode.
Switch it to fast and you'll probably have more GR than you'll know what to do with. I guess I haven't noticed any issues regarding clipping.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #4
Here for the gear
 

i have never had a problem using the comp on the channel but i have never wanted to do more than 3-6dB gain reduction. i will say this, waves have made this channel to model the board. you can drive the input and/or output into the red and lower the channel fader in your daw to create the analog drive of the console. obviously it doesn't sound exactly like the board but damn close. try it out if you want to put a little grit on electric guitar or vox, maybe bass, drums, depending on the project. sound good though. i'm pretty sure all the studio classics are like that, but i never tried it with the neve or api yet. hope this helps you out a little.
p.s. if you need more dB gain reduction put a different comp on after the channel. if your not using the tdm plugs then it should not tax your system too hard seeing as rtas, vst, au utilize floating point processing.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #5
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1. Print stems take it to a real SSL console to compress it, or...... use plugin
2. 2:1
3. 10 attack
4. auto release
5. set threshold so your getting 4 db of reduction at loudest part of song
6. then take the time to get the output at the right level so its hot but absolutely no clipping.
7. Let someone good master it.

works for me
Old 23rd January 2009
  #6
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GREENFENDR's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttrescott2002 View Post
i have never had a problem using the comp on the channel but i have never wanted to do more than 3-6dB gain reduction. i will say this, waves have made this channel to model the board. you can drive the input and/or output into the red and lower the channel fader in your daw to create the analog drive of the console. obviously it doesn't sound exactly like the board but damn close. try it out if you want to put a little grit on electric guitar or vox, maybe bass, drums, depending on the project. sound good though. i'm pretty sure all the studio classics are like that, but i never tried it with the neve or api yet. hope this helps you out a little.
p.s. if you need more dB gain reduction put a different comp on after the channel. if your not using the tdm plugs then it should not tax your system too hard seeing as rtas, vst, au utilize floating point processing.
Let me see if I've got this right, you're saying is that the 'clip' is just modeling the clipping of the analog unit and is not actually clipping digitally? A little confusing, but it seems in line with what I've been experiencing/hearing.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #7
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Yeah - I talked to the Waves guy at the Eddie Kramer thing @ RSPE and he said that the clip lights (on ALL their new stuff - api, v, ssl, jjp) do that - they are the same as the analog units. So, if you like to peg the meter on the real one, the plug-in is "supposed" to respond the same way.

I told him it was confusing and that there should be an actual DIGITAL clip light so you'd know when there was a problem... he looked at me as if he didn't get what I was saying and just said "you'll hear it if it actually clips"

so, now I ignore the RED LIGHTS and just listen - which I know is how you should ALWAYS do it but being taught that clips in protools are bad it's easy to get nervous when your session lights up like a christmas tree
Old 23rd January 2009
  #8
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wow. that's really arse-backwards. but at least I know. It really is a dumb feature. 1. how do I know when it's really clipping, 2. Now I can't just easily look at my mix window and see if one of my other plugs are clipping....really annoying

WAVES!!! PLEASE FIX THIS!!!
Old 23rd January 2009
  #9
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I love the red light and its analog clipping goodness. No digital cliiping heard, no digital clipping there.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #10
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World Studios's Avatar
You can usually drive them VERY hard before digital clipping becomes obvious. I like to think of it like "if the red light does not come on, it is too low". You want some nice distortion. It is good for you.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #11
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....however.... the hiss that you get from using the Analog button is a menance! We need a second button labeled hiss I/O. For tracks that are really soft and yet need to be loud, the hiss gets annoying. Mabye not on one track, but if you slap 20-30 tracks with the Neve-plugs with the analog button in, you need to gate the channels for sure. Bad? I don't know, but annoying... The sound is better with analog on, except mabye if you stick an SSL comp on the master buss. The "digital" option is more transparent and airy.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GREENFENDR View Post
wow. that's really arse-backwards. but at least I know. It really is a dumb feature. 1. how do I know when it's really clipping, 2. Now I can't just easily look at my mix window and see if one of my other plugs are clipping....really annoying

WAVES!!! PLEASE FIX THIS!!!
u can drive the plug as u would the actual analog console. No need to fix that- that's the brilliance of the plug and works wonders on sources- especially drumz. Pushing the analog channels is the sound that is heard on just about everything when consoles r used.

in PT if ur meters r pinning on channels, trim mode them down. Ive never clipped the waves plugs. They respond perfectly
Old 23rd January 2009
  #13
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I think it would be a great idea if Waves would leave the analog metering as they have them now (so they mimic the actual gear, going in to the red, etc) BUT only had the track name/plug name in go red in the case of an internal digital clip... my 2 cents.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #14
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Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

i've been driving my inputs into the red since day one, without even reading or hearing that it's not actually clipping. i never heard the clip,therefore never sweat it. but i do tend to work with my ears more than eyes with plugs because the metering is often skewed.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #15
Here for the gear
 

i agree. no need to change the metering. waves did this to model the console. why would you even buy the ssl bundle if you weren't trying to get the character and feel of an ssl. i think the same goes for metering. i've worked on a 4000 g+ and i love the board. in fact i've used the ssl duende and i don't think they did as good of a job modeling their own product as waves did. always remember to use your ears. best way to mix.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #16
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Rob C's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttrescott2002 View Post
i agree. no need to change the metering. waves did this to model the console. why would you even buy the ssl bundle if you weren't trying to get the character and feel of an ssl. i think the same goes for metering. i've worked on a 4000 g+ and i love the board. in fact i've used the ssl duende and i don't think they did as good of a job modeling their own product as waves did. always remember to use your ears. best way to mix.
The Waves SSL package and the Duende are modeling very different SSL consoles.
Old 24th January 2009
  #17
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From the Waves SSL Manual:

"Master Section Controls and Indicators
On the bottom right of the SSL E-Channel Strip are the master gain controls and level
indicator.
1. Level Indicator Levels are expressed in dBFS, although all parameters are
expressed as dBu. "
Old 24th January 2009
  #18
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you know its digitally clipping if your Pro Tools/Logic/whatever fader goes into the red.

Just think of the clipping in the plugging as a form of distortion and not a hard clip like digital.

I think they did a good job.
Old 24th January 2009
  #19
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Ive been recording my live drums thru Focusrite pres using Waves SSL on input and I love the results..
Old 25th January 2009
  #20
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I'm not saying that I don't like the sonic results, but I couldn't find anything in any of the waves documents, about this analog modeled clipping, so I'm thinking that the clip light is like every other plug in I've ever used in my life and I'm digitally clipping.

They just should make it clear SOMEPLACE on what's going on.

It seems that (and please let me know if I'm wrong about this) the 'analog clipping' triggers the digital clip light when using TDM. that's really what annoys me the most, seeing all those plug slots lit up yelling at me that there's a problem, when there really is no problem. (and like i said before, it makes it alot harder when a plug is ACTUALLY clipping, as I can't just glance over the mix window and find the culprit)
Old 25th January 2009
  #21
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as stated earlier, trim the output down on plug or the track if the trk is in the red on the mixer. but the input will still "analog clip" and give u the sound.
Old 25th January 2009
  #22
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Ok here is he thing, I talked about this With Michael @ waves and he explain to me that since these consoles sound better when driven harder and pushed to the sweet spot, the plugins were created to recreate the same thing. It's Ok to clip a bit IN the plugin. if you don't hear it distort then you are fine. use yur ears not your eyes however it's NOT ok to clip on the PT fader so he shared this very useful tip with me. Just place a "TRIM" plugin on each track with a SSL plug for example (after the wave of course) and se it to anywhere between -2 to -7 dbs. you have now the nice sauration from the plugin but not the nasty digital cliping and you can adjustt overall volume witth the PT fader to compensate for the trim.
Works GREAT try it !!
Old 25th January 2009
  #23
Deleted 99dc753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjice View Post
Ok here is he thing, I talked about this With Michael @ waves and he explain to me that since these consoles sound better when driven harder and pushed to the sweet spot, the plugins were created to recreate the same thing. It's Ok to clip a bit IN the plugin. if you don't hear it distort then you are fine. use yur ears not your eyes however it's NOT ok to clip on the PT fader so he shared this very useful tip with me. Just place a "TRIM" plugin on each track with a SSL plug for example (after the wave of course) and se it to anywhere between -2 to -7 dbs. you have now the nice sauration from the plugin but not the nasty digital cliping and you can adjustt overall volume witth the PT fader to compensate for the trim.
Works GREAT try it !!
it also worked out fine for me when pulling down the output at the waves channel fader without using a trim plug any wrong with this method?
Old 25th January 2009
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES View Post
it also worked out fine for me when pulling down the output at the waves channel fader without using a trim plug any wrong with this method?
you mean the output gain in the plug in? if so yes you are losing some of that Nice Saturation the plugin is trying to emulate
Old 26th January 2009
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjice View Post
Ok here is he thing, I talked about this With Michael @ waves and he explain to me that since these consoles sound better when driven harder and pushed to the sweet spot, the plugins were created to recreate the same thing. It's Ok to clip a bit IN the plugin. if you don't hear it distort then you are fine. use yur ears not your eyes however it's NOT ok to clip on the PT fader so he shared this very useful tip with me. Just place a "TRIM" plugin on each track with a SSL plug for example (after the wave of course) and se it to anywhere between -2 to -7 dbs. you have now the nice sauration from the plugin but not the nasty digital cliping and you can adjustt overall volume witth the PT fader to compensate for the trim.
Works GREAT try it !!
I like Sonaksis Free-G for this.
Old 26th January 2009
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob C View Post
The Waves SSL package and the Duende are modeling very different SSL consoles.
the boards themselves were different, the models however were not. waves up until a few months ago only had the e-channel, g-eq and g buss. duende has 1 channel strip with a button to select between the e and g series eq's. i can see your confusion if you have never used one of these, but have used the other.
Old 26th January 2009
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjice View Post
you mean the output gain in the plug in? if so yes you are losing some of that Nice Saturation the plugin is trying to emulate
is this true?? I always assumed that you could get more saturation by driving the input, and that the output fader was just to trim levels and not clip the PT fader.
Old 26th January 2009
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttrescott2002 View Post
the boards themselves were different, the models however were not. waves up until a few months ago only had the e-channel, g-eq and g buss. duende has 1 channel strip with a button to select between the e and g series eq's. i can see your confusion if you have never used one of these, but have used the other.

I thought waves modelled 4000 console and duende modelled their 9000 console
Old 26th January 2009
  #29
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thesteve's Avatar
When you load the SSL channel on the duende the release is at its fastest, so it will not meter much GR. If you increase your release time just a little bit you will get more audible GR and not just the quick grab on the transients. Same with buss comp, if you switch from auto release to .1 you will see much more reduction. You will have to get used to what is actually redline digital clipping and what is the simulation... it looks like ears will be needed more than the meters for that one
Old 26th January 2009
  #30
I've had the same problem. I've stopped using it as of late. It's just a stupid design gimick failing IMO. I'm running a digital setup and I need digital setup feedback. I need indication if there is a real clipping problem and I want that to be clear. *grumbles and storms off*
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