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My review of the Focal twin 6 (2008) Studio Monitors
Old 10th December 2008
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
those tweeters are beryllium ,
beryllium does not break in. its a verry hard unmaleable material,
cannot break in.
thats why KRK in expose mixed beryllium with aluminium.
You are absolutely right! the beryllium itself does not flex or break it but the poron® suspension does!

Same goes for the woofers, the suspension (which is the rubber surround as well as the spider inside the cone assembly) Even when we design the speaker, we need to break in each and every driver separately before doing any serious measurements as they do measure differently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
some soft dome tweeters do break in becouse are soft.
titanium diaphragm does not break in.
Definetely have nothing to do with the dome material itself. as explained above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
by logic its not the tweeter break in, must be your ears producing WAX to protect themselfs, your ears need 2 weeks to make enough wax.
An easy test that we did before to show people it had nothing to do with "your ears breaking in or producing wax" was to hook up to pairs of Twin6Be on a Dangerous ST, one brand new, one that was completely broken in. they sounded very different so no worries, break in is real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
twin mid drivers sound blurr, you are just having a PLACEBO EFFECT in your brain.

take for example M-Audio EX66, blurr mids. or QSC dual 8inch,

its impossible that two of the same mid range audio sources, will produce a more defined/accurate sound.
not time aligned, not axial aligned,and not horn loaded.

twin mid drivers its just crap. unless one of the woofers has a lower low-pass filter, arround 100Hz upto less than 400Hz.
You are correct, twin mid-bass (D'Appolito comfiguration) drivers is not the best design, that's why we are not using that design in the Twin6. a twin mid-bass design has usually terrible dispersion. the Twin6Be is a 2 1/2-way design so one of the woofer is doing 250Hz and below and the other is doing 40Hz to 2500Hz


Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
also the left and the right woofers are not time aligned when used like in the photo = more phase/time problems.
I'm not sure I understand the above comment but the Twin6 has a switch in the back to select which driver is the mid driver so essentially, both are a mirror image of each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
also inverted dome, "concentric" "parabolic" "concave" does not widen the sweet spot of the highs, the opposite, they focus the highs like a magnifier glass and the sun burning a paper.

if you are not in the perfect spot every time all the time, will not work.
you must screw your head.
thats why satelite dishes are inverted domes.
This is incorrect. I can see your analogy with satellites dishes but it's not the same application whatsoever. the Focal inverted dome has great dispersion because the mechanical connection between the dome and the voice coil is at the strongest point of the dome, away from the suspension so when the dome is (for exemple) working at 15-20k, it's still moving in a very linear fashion and it's not flexing at all. on a positive soft dome, because the voice coil is attached to the outer edge, where the suspension is, it tends to "wobble" in the middle at higher frequencies so it affects dispersion quite a bit.


Simon
Old 12th December 2008
  #32
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
did you try putting them on the console meter bridge without the mopads ?
They are not on the meter bridge they are on Sound Anchors right above it
Old 24th December 2008
  #33
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FocalPro View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012
twin mid drivers sound blurr, you are just having a PLACEBO EFFECT in your brain.

take for example M-Audio EX66, blurr mids. or QSC dual 8inch,

its impossible that two of the same mid range audio sources, will produce a more defined/accurate sound.
not time aligned, not axial aligned,and not horn loaded.

twin mid drivers its just crap. unless one of the woofers has a lower low-pass filter, arround 100Hz upto less than 400Hz.

You are correct, twin mid-bass (D'Appolito comfiguration) drivers is not the best design, that's why we are not using that design in the Twin6. a twin mid-bass design has usually terrible dispersion. the Twin6Be is a 2 1/2-way design so one of the woofer is doing 250Hz and below and the other is doing 40Hz to 2500Hz



Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012
also the left and the right woofers are not time aligned when used like in the photo = more phase/time problems.

I'm not sure I understand the above comment but the Twin6 has a switch in the back to select which driver is the mid driver so essentially, both are a mirror image of each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012
also inverted dome, "concentric" "parabolic" "concave" does not widen the sweet spot of the highs, the opposite, they focus the highs like a magnifier glass and the sun burning a paper.

if you are not in the perfect spot every time all the time, will not work.
you must screw your head.
thats why satelite dishes are inverted domes.

This is incorrect. I can see your analogy with satellites dishes but it's not the same application whatsoever. the Focal inverted dome has great dispersion because the mechanical connection between the dome and the voice coil is at the strongest point of the dome, away from the suspension so when the dome is (for exemple) working at 15-20k, it's still moving in a very linear fashion and it's not flexing at all. on a positive soft dome, because the voice coil is attached to the outer edge, where the suspension is, it tends to "wobble" in the middle at higher frequencies so it affects dispersion quite a bit.


Simon
Interesting exchange.

Simon and Space 2012,

I recently auditioned the Focal Twin 6's. In fact, I did so on two separate occasions, and I'm afraid I'm in full aggreement with Space 2012 here. It's ironic that I come across this post just a day and a half after my posting a very similar experience in another thread, on another forum.(Low End Theory) Not only were the tweeters beaming, but the soundstage also, was clearly unfocused and the imaging somewhat confused.

That said, I found the speakers to have a beautiful tonal balance throughout most of the frequency range. The highs were nice and smooth, but did tend to get quite bright in the "beam" (tweeters aimed directly at ears). An effect I would say is impossible not to notice. I found myself raising and lowering my head frequently, hunting for an ideal listening position; both in and out of the beam. A verical head movement of as little as 3"-4" made a big difference, even with the speakers 7-8 feet away.

For me, the most troublesome issue was that of soundstage/imaging. There's something really strange going on in the vocal range. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I found it very odd. For example, I listened to a Jack Johnson CD, and his voice sounded as if it were coming from a gigantic head from within the control room. I also noticed quite a bit of boxiness in the vocals, at some of the frequency points.

When I switched cd's (a Norah Jones "Live" jazz recording), again, the soundstage/imaging was simply not focused. By "focused", I'm referring to positioning the vocalist in the soundstage; not a lack of clarity in the vocals.

Bob
Old 25th December 2008
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1Note View Post


I recently auditioned the Focal Twin 6's.

Hi!

I'm curious, where did you try them out? I saw your other post comparing your experience with the Twins vs. Solos and something is definetely odd.

Thanks!


Simon @ Focal
Old 25th December 2008
  #35
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I love my twins. It first I hated them, then focal told me to break them now they ate great
Old 27th December 2008
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1Note View Post
Interesting exchange.

[...]Not only were the tweeters beaming, but the soundstage also, was clearly unfocused and the imaging somewhat confused.

[...]For me, the most troublesome issue was that of soundstage/imaging. There's something really strange going on in the vocal range. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I found it very odd. For example, I listened to a Jack Johnson CD, and his voice sounded as if it were coming from a gigantic head from within the control room. I also noticed quite a bit of boxiness in the vocals, at some of the frequency points.

When I switched cd's (a Norah Jones "Live" jazz recording), again, the soundstage/imaging was simply not focused. By "focused", I'm referring to positioning the vocalist in the soundstage; not a lack of clarity in the vocals.

Bob
Bob brings up an interesting point and I can't help but wonder if it's related it to the design of the Twins. The tweeter and the midrange driver are not on the same vertical axis, could this be the cause of what Bob is experiencing? I'd love to hear the opinion of some speaker experts on this type of design and it's effect on imaging.

My personal experience with the Twins has been that their stereo imaging is by far better than that of my previous monitors, Mackie 824's. However, I can't help but wonder about this now that it's been brought up. Logic tells me that, in theory, having high freq sounds and mid freq sounds coming separately from two different points on the vertical plane cannot produce accurate imaging on a horizontal soundstage (left-right). However, in practice, I've been pleased with the imaging of the Twins -- BUT when auditioning the Twins vs. Solo 6's, I did find the imaging of the Solo's to be superior.

Last edited by Juan2daPaab; 28th December 2008 at 12:17 AM.. Reason: Clearing up quote...
Old 29th December 2008
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FocalPro View Post
Hi!

I'm curious, where did you try them out? I saw your other post comparing your experience with the Twins vs. Solos and something is definetely odd.

Thanks!


Simon @ Focal
Hi Simon,

I listened to both the Focals (Twin 6 & Solo) at StudioEconomik in Montreal. These were two brief listening sessions, roughly one month apart. On both occasions, I had not gone to the store to audition speakers. I had gone to buy some mics, and happened to take some spare time to have a quick listen. Had I known in advance I'd be auditioning speakers, I'd have brought along some familiar cd's.

The listening room at Studioeconomik looks like a control-room, and from what I can remember, it is a treated room. My focus was on the speakers, and while listening, I noticed that the wall immediately behind the speakers had large traps across much of that wall. I really don't recall any other details of that room at that moment, other than the fact that off to my left was a very large window, and behind me were shelves, with various models of speakers. I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly, the rear wall was not parallel to the wall in front of me, nor were they the same length. Ceiling height? Not sure. I'd say at least 12 feet, but that's purely a guesstimate. I really didn't pay attention to that detail.

I was seated at a console, and the three pairs of speakers (Twin 6, Solo 6, and Adams A7's) were on stands, and directly facing me (angled slightly inward). The tweeter-heights of the Twin 6's, were roughly 8" above my head. The Twin 6's were mounted horizontally on the stands. The speakers were roughly 6-8' away, and probably 6' apart.

My very first impression of the Twin 6's was that they were a very full-sounding loudspeaker, with ample bottom-end, and smooth upper-end. Norah Jones' vocals sounded very natural, but something was troubling me regarding soundstage-imaging, so I sat up tall in my seat and noticed a slight difference in how the highs sounded, so I got slightly taller in the chair, until my ears were directly at tweeter height, and it was there that I noticed the distinct "beaming" of the tweeters. The tweets sounded noticeably brighter/hotter in the beam; not unpleasant by any means, but different compared to listening slightly off-axis. I think I preferred the off-axis sound.; at least, for that short demo.

Regarding the soundstage/imaging, I just don't know what it is. I can't quite put my finger on it. It just seemed unnatural to me. Something just didn't sit right with me, and I thought it may have something to do with the porting of the cabinets. I mentioned to the sales assistant, I'd like to come back for a more detailed session, and experiment with mounting the speakers vertically, vs horizontally. I definitely am not quite ready to give up on these speakers just yet. There's a lot to like. I was also impressed, even surprised, with the Solo 6's overall sound quality/ tonal balance.

That store is closed for the holidays, but I hope to go back sometime in mid January if my schedule allows. I understand they'll be receiving the new Focal CMS's about then.

Bob
Old 29th December 2008
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby1Note View Post
Hi Simon,

I listened to both the Focals (Twin 6 & Solo) at StudioEconomik in Montreal. These were two brief listening sessions, roughly one month apart. On both occasions, I had not gone to the store to audition speakers. I had gone to buy some mics, and happened to take some spare time to have a quick listen. Had I known in advance I'd be auditioning speakers, I'd have brought along some familiar cd's.

The listening room at Studioeconomik looks like a control-room, and from what I can remember, it is a treated room. My focus was on the speakers, and while listening, I noticed that the wall immediately behind the speakers had large traps across much of that wall. I really don't recall any other details of that room at that moment, other than the fact that off to my left was a very large window, and behind me were shelves, with various models of speakers. I may be mistaken, but if I remember correctly, the rear wall was not parallel to the wall in front of me, nor were they the same length. Ceiling height? Not sure. I'd say at least 12 feet, but that's purely a guesstimate. I really didn't pay attention to that detail.

I was seated at a console, and the three pairs of speakers (Twin 6, Solo 6, and Adams A7's) were on stands, and directly facing me (angled slightly inward). The tweeter-heights of the Twin 6's, were roughly 8" above my head. The Twin 6's were mounted horizontally on the stands. The speakers were roughly 6-8' away, and probably 6' apart.

My very first impression of the Twin 6's was that they were a very full-sounding loudspeaker, with ample bottom-end, and smooth upper-end. Norah Jones' vocals sounded very natural, but something was troubling me regarding soundstage-imaging, so I sat up tall in my seat and noticed a slight difference in how the highs sounded, so I got slightly taller in the chair, until my ears were directly at tweeter height, and it was there that I noticed the distinct "beaming" of the tweeters. The tweets sounded noticeably brighter/hotter in the beam; not unpleasant by any means, but different compared to listening slightly off-axis. I think I preferred the off-axis sound.; at least, for that short demo.

Regarding the soundstage/imaging, I just don't know what it is. I can't quite put my finger on it. It just seemed unnatural to me. Something just didn't sit right with me, and I thought it may have something to do with the porting of the cabinets. I mentioned to the sales assistant, I'd like to come back for a more detailed session, and experiment with mounting the speakers vertically, vs horizontally. I definitely am not quite ready to give up on these speakers just yet. There's a lot to like. I was also impressed, even surprised, with the Solo 6's overall sound quality/ tonal balance.

That store is closed for the holidays, but I hope to go back sometime in mid January if my schedule allows. I understand they'll be receiving the new Focal CMS's about then.

Bob
Hi Bob!

You probably didn't know but our offices are in Montreal so I'm very familiar with Studio Economik's room (and all the guys there)

You are correct in your description of the room, it's a bit like a control room but they only use it to demo speakers. You might be right about the soundstage in that room, it's usually pretty odd. the big glass windows on the left side vs. the door+room on the right side makes the soundstage a little off.

Also, moving around in the room (mostly front to back) changes the sound drastically. Even Francois (the owner) recently noted on how weird was the room when they used the SM11 in a tradeshow. they were absolutely wowed by the speakers and they were really anxious to listen to them in a "better" room! They got back to the office, listened to the SM11 he said they sounded better on the tradeshow floor!

A lot of people think a tradeshow floor is bad, which of course, it is! (background noise) but in terms of acoustic, at least, it's pretty predictable! no ceiling, no walls !

Also, do you know if they were using their Dangerous ST monitor controller at the time?

I'll let you know when I bring them some CMS monitors to demo them! This should be around mid-january as Economik is closed between Christmas and New Year!


Simon @ Focal
Old 29th December 2008
  #39
Gear Head
 

Simon, Thank you so much for that information. I'd definitely want to listen to the Twin 6's in my own room before making a decision. Like I said earlier, there's a lot to like here, and I won't necessarily allow a brief demo to sway me just yet. They'd be ideal for my current budget if it works out sonically. I currently have a pair of A7's to get by with (no bottom-end), and my large monitors are Spendor SA-3's (superb). It certainly would be nice to have a nearfield that can reasonably approach the performance of the very large Spendors.

I didn't really notice if they were using the Dangerous ST monitor controller. The young salesman (Serge???) dropped a cd into the machine, and I was focusing on the speakers/stands at the time.

I've only recently discovered Studioeconomik, and I've not yet met Francois. I've dealt with Marc-Andre, and Mario. Mario simply blows my mind when he's talking mics. He's unreal. I've never met a guy who can so accurately and eloquently describe the character and properties of the various mics he sells. This guy REALLY knows his stuff.

Ya gotta love how these guys do business too. For example, they'll rent me any mics/pre's/converters I want, so I can take my time and audition them at home. When I finally decide which I prefer, they'll credit 100% of the rental fee toward the purchase-price of the gear I choose. That's outstanding service in my book. Takes all the pressure off and avoids first impression impulse purchases. I NEVER buy (or dismiss) on first impression.

Bob
Old 31st December 2008
  #40
Gear Head
 

One complaint I have about the Focal Twins... they are not shielded from RF interference. Can't leave cell phones anywhere near these. This is a bit of an inconvenience for me as I'm in a 1 room home studio (no booth or live room, I monitor and track in the same room) so I either have to leave my cell phone far far away or turn it (or the speakers) off.

On the other hand however, my mixes have never been better! (Mixed my first track on the Twins a couple weeks ago, the clients were really impressed!)

I do agree that the tweeters on these are more directional than other speakers I've worked on with dome tweeters, however it's a small price to pay considering the accuracy you're getting when in the sweet spot.
Old 1st January 2009
  #41
Gear nut
 

Since I got spanked for mentioning RME and MOTU in the highend forum then I have to ask what on earth are these Focal Monitors doing here. These are mid end at best and I'd say upper low end to be realistic.
Old 1st January 2009
  #42
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin View Post
Since I got spanked for mentioning RME and MOTU in the highend forum then I have to ask what on earth are these Focal Monitors doing here. These are mid end at best and I'd say upper low end to be realistic.
hahaha that was funny...ok now
Old 1st January 2009
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin View Post
Since I got spanked for mentioning RME and MOTU in the highend forum then I have to ask what on earth are these Focal Monitors doing here. These are mid end at best and I'd say upper low end to be realistic.
Upper low end? Really?

wow.

I must be way off.
Old 1st January 2009
  #44
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strewnshank View Post
Upper low end? Really?

wow.

I must be way off.
I'd consider ATC, 3-way Genelec, larger Quested models, MEG and K&H to be examples of high end monitors.
Old 1st January 2009
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJGoody View Post
No it really exists. The voice coil loses some tension..
It exists allright but the VC is not involved. Surrounds, spiders and softer cones/domes is involved though as are the glue joints that bonds the various parts of the driver together.

Speakers should be run in with low to medium levels in order not to stress the driver to much. Since parts of the moving elements and the glue joints undergo change this needs to be done reasonably slow. Going to hard can lead to increased distortion of the speakerdriver.


/Peter
Old 1st January 2009
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
those tweeters are beryllium ,
beryllium does not break in. its a verry hard unmaleable material,
cannot break in.
thats why KRK in expose mixed beryllium with aluminium.
just google or yahoo about it.
Use google and you'll find out more about loudspeaker drivers. Such as they often use some type of surround for holding the cone/dome in the magnetic gap. It's not like a beryllium dome is welded onto the chassi.

Quote:
break in means to me: bad manufacturing process,
Yes, and the reason for that is that you put more effort in talking about things you do not understand instead of actually study the subject.

Quote:
computers do not need to break-in, cell phones do not breakin, GPS do not breakin, microwave ovens do not break in, tvs do not break in, mouse do not break in, keyboards do not break in, clocks do not breakin,
True.

Quote:
chairs do not break in.
My Ekorness leather recliner and my fabric sofa definately did break in and still undergoe changes.

Quote:
materials just give up under too much stress.
They do that, and a lot of other things you do not understand at this point.

Quote:
car breaks do not break in, just wear enought to allow more friction.
Exactly, cars break in!

Quote:
titanium diaphragm does not break in.
Noby made such a claim either so your point is?

Quote:
20 year old titanum diaphragm sounds exactly the same today, if the voice coil or the crossover was not overstressed.
Oh, so you're a x-over expert as well.. Are you proposing that caps, coils and resistors are sensitive to stress but the moving flexing parts of the speaker driver is not? (Rethorical question, no need to answer)

Hint, you're wrong again.

Quote:
by logic its not the tweeter break in, must be your ears producing WAX to protect themselfs, your ears need 2 weeks to make enough wax.
or... maybe also the electronic components, magnets, voice coils, that do not have good thermal tolerance.
Electronic components in loudspeaker drivers is something new to me. Hint there are no electronic parts in a driver.

And what have "thermal tolerance" to do with this?

Quote:
anyway....
twin mid drivers sound blurr, you are just having a PLACEBO EFFECT in your brain.
No, twin mid's do not blurr.

Quote:
take for example M-Audio EX66, blurr mids. or QSC dual 8inch,
And you did an extensive study on those drivers/speakers to reach your conclusion? Excluding distortion from non-optimum design of cones? Excluding distortion from nonlinear inductance of the VC, nonlinear Bl factor and nonlinear suspension compliance? Excluding room acoustics?


Quote:
its impossible that two of the same mid range audio sources, will produce a more defined/accurate sound.
not time aligned, not axial aligned,and not horn loaded.
Absolutely not. If the whole speaker is designed for controlled dispersion you may get IMRPOVED accuracy from various non MT layouts due to less destructive interference from room boundaries.

Quote:
twin mid drivers its just crap. unless one of the woofers has a lower low-pass filter, arround 100Hz upto less than 400Hz.
A 2.5 way system is a good option in many situations but that does not make speakers with more directivity inferior.

Quote:
if you cannot hear it, you are in the wrong bussiness.
With your poor understanding of the subject a slightly more humble attitude would fit you better.. You are really making a fool out of yourself.


Quote:
also the left and the right woofers are not time aligned when used like in the photo = more phase/time problems.
Is it so? Tell us how you came to that conclusion and while you're at it give a brief explanation on loobing, acoustic centers and other related things.


Quote:
also inverted dome, "concentric" "parabolic" "concave" does not widen the sweet spot of the highs, the opposite, they focus the highs like a magnifier glass and the sun burning a paper.
In practice concave domes have similar dispersion as convex designs and often better. But I guess speculating is your thing more than study and measure.

Quote:
if you are not in the perfect spot every time all the time, will not work.
you must screw your head.
thats why satelite dishes are inverted domes.
Not work.. what is it that won't work? All domes have a narrowing dispersion as we move up towards higher frequencies and the faceplate, baffle and a waveguide or horn loading can be used to steer the response towards what you decide for a particular design.

Try to learn yourself instead of teaching others stuff you don't understand. I really don't mean to offend but your post is just way off!


/Peter
Old 1st January 2009
  #47
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by space2012 View Post
break in means to me: bad manufacturing process, computers do not need to break-in, cell phones do not breakin, GPS do not breakin, microwave ovens do not break in, tvs do not break in, mouse do not break in, keyboards do not break in, clocks do not breakin,
A friend of mine and fellow audio DIY fanatic, Vikash Chauhan, did some break in tests with low frequency sine waves played into brand new drivers over a long period to see how the electrical and mechanical parameters changed and whether they match the manufacturers claimed specification.

Driver break in is absolutely no myth although the most noticeable changes occur in the bass region for the reason of the physical and electrical properties of the driver being symbiotic with the loading situation or enclosure type its placed within.

Read through this and scroll down to see the results for a 10" subwoofer:
Peerless XLS10 10" Subwoofer (830452) and Passive Radiator (830481)

There's also another test involving smaller mid/bass drivers:
How the Audax AP100Z0 loudspeaker drivers were broken-in and the T/S parameters measured.
Old 1st January 2009
  #48
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I have also measured a shift in T/S of woofers so for sure it's real and sometimes also audible.

If memory serves me a speaker that is allowed to rest for a couple of days or can measure different than one that has been playing intensively for an hour or so. Someone measured this effect I believe.


/Peter
Old 1st January 2009
  #49
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i've always noticed a difference in hf response when any tweet on any speaker is at ear level vs. a few inches above or below.

i never have tweets firing right at my ears, i usually like them about 4 inches up. true when i had jbl lsr28p's, true when i had truth ta1p's, and true now that i have twins.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 2nd January 2009
  #50
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I have also measured a shift in T/S of woofers so for sure it's real and sometimes also audible.

If memory serves me a speaker that is allowed to rest for a couple of days or can measure different than one that has been playing intensively for an hour or so. Someone measured this effect I believe.


/Peter
Yes this is mainly due to the voice coil heating as power is input from the amplifier. The louder you play the more power and the more heat generated.

The suspension parts such as the surround and spider are more influenced by external temperature and humidity rather than playing loud for long periods and being well 'exercised'. Cold climate will cause a stiffening of moving parts raising the drivers resonant frequency and causing an upward shift of the natural highpass behaviour of the bass.
Old 2nd January 2009
  #51
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Shin, I am not talking about VC heating. :-)

I know that heat is generated in a conductor as current is passed. Remember our disucssion on thermal behaviour of tweeters? I asked you for info about such performance of the RAAL tweeters.

The effect I'm talking aboiut is likely due to some elasticity/hysteresis in the spider.



/Peter
Old 2nd January 2009
  #52
Gear nut
 

As I said in my previous post, the effects of thermal handling and climate are the biggest factors in variable performance rather than soft parts being worked over a period of time. Once a driver is run in and the parts have reached equilibrium as system I consider them good for year with careful use. Hysteresis or memory effect of the motor and the suspension is a problem but this is true whether playing for 5 minutes or 5 hours.
Old 2nd January 2009
  #53
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Shin, no!

Of course heating is a big factor while playing a speaker but NOT when it has been resting and cooled of. Please try to read a little better. I have been doing this for years as well and I know a great deal about speakers.

At room temp we have no variables from heating once the VC has cooled off.


/Peter
Old 2nd January 2009
  #54
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Simon...i'm curious why...if you know the speakers need breaking - in... isnt this accomplised at the factory??

The intended customer is a professional...the speaker should be useable out of the box.
Maybe the hobbyists here can afford NOT to use their control room & newly purchased speakers for 2 weeks...but i think the PRO user cant.

We recently had a major facility reject a $15000 pair of studio monitors...the distributor asked the 'stupid' question if we had broken them in. If they needed breaking-in...it should have been done before they shipped them directly to the studio !
Old 2nd January 2009
  #55
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Shin, no!

Of course heating is a big factor while playing a speaker but NOT when it has been resting and cooled of. Please try to read a little better. I have been doing this for years as well and I know a great deal about speakers.

At room temp we have no variables from heating once the VC has cooled off.


/Peter
I read what you wrote which was:

"If memory serves me a speaker that is allowed to rest for a couple of days or can measure different than one that has been playing intensively for an hour or so. Someone measured this effect I believe."

You compared a driver that's been sat around for a couple of days to one that's been playing intensively for an hour. I outlined why the TS measure differently in this case and in others.

I don't see what the big deal is here.
Old 2nd January 2009
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Shin, I took for granted that the level of our discussion was on such a level that it was obvious that the speaker was allowed to cool down before measured. :-)

I also mentioned earlier that I was not talking about VC heating.

Take your sock off your fot and stretch it.. release it and watch it as it pulls back. This is not done instantly but it takes some time for the fibers to get back. The report I read about was such an effect, and not about the thermal effect on T/S parameters.

Heating of the VC changes the Q of the system but it does not affect Fs.


/Peter
Old 3rd January 2009
  #57
Gear Addict
 
britdick's Avatar
 

break in...

'tis true...ALL high-end gear is in need of a break-in period...speakers are very much at the top of that list - i always purchased my speakers, Magnapan's, ProAc's, Mission's, etc, from the used section of high-end retailers...so i've actually compared them to the new stuff in the showroom and then had them swap the used out on the same gear, same room, same source - and there is a HUGE difference...there is def. a placebo effect over time in your own studio, but at the core of it is something that, especially in the "audiphile" world is just accepted as fact...those knob-twiddlers even break in water cooled cables!
Old 3rd January 2009
  #58
Gear nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Take your sock off your fot and stretch it.. release it and watch it as it pulls back. This is not done instantly but it takes some time for the fibers to get back. The report I read about was such an effect, and not about the thermal effect on T/S parameters.
I'd prefer to think of it as a spring or elastic band.

The memory effect would only be noteable whilst the driver is playing or shortly after you stop playing. If the driver is showing memory effect to an extent that's its measureable in the Thiele/Small parameter after the 10 or 15 minutes needed for the VC to cool then I'd say that's an awfully poor suspension design. This is the prime reason why I assumed you weren't talking about such a period of time passing as I've never seen or heard of any evidence showing measurable deviation in the TS in these conditions.

Quote:
Heating of the VC changes the Q of the system but it does not affect Fs.
Heating leads to compression and not just around tuning or resonance. I'm sure you've heard it when you really twat a system and the dynamics drop off quickly followed by the spl ceasing to increase much and instead is replaced by the onset of distortion and general noise. Actually that sounds like a rough emulation of todays loudness wars but 2-way with 6 or 8" drivers are often poor in this regard. BTW regarding your mention of Fs, I'm not sure if your referencing what I said earlier but when I talked about Fs, Qms, Qts and Cms it was WRT external temperature and humidity changes. Something only the car audio or outdoor PA guys need to be worried about or not as the case often is.
Old 7th January 2009
  #59
Gear Head
Speaker spiders and cone/dome suspension consist of materials which elasticity will change when using them over time (to play music in this case - OK, also by being pressed by any young brat when you aren't looking tutt). Anybody that still disagrees at this point, see you again sometime when you have some better arguments then the ones we heard before. Still there, maybe you want to listen to what I learned from 2 speaker manufacturers I have been working for.

'Breaking in': well, hopefully nothing is actually broken afterwards, and if so, that would be a bad thing you do not want to happen. Because if you really hit a new (yes why not use the v-word heh) virgin speaker hard for the first time, you may end up with tiny cracks in the spider. Not very good for the rest of its lifespan I would say. So better build it up, and then in time (days/weeks) voila: a nicely 'opened' speaker. - Just prefer to use this word... but whatever you like. The materials then have the elasticity the manufacturer designed the speaker system for! From that point on you are listening to something that the manufacturer wanted you to listen to.

Could the manufacturer do the break.....ing in? Possibly, but that would make the monitors more expensive, adding up longer stay in the factory, more labour, more use of factory space, and using extra equipment. Other than that, as a new finished product and stored for a long time, it is likely there would be still some breaking in time needed.

Anyone that claims to be able to measure the diference between brand new and used for a while must be very rich! The necessary equipment costs an absolute fortune, more than average high-end monitors. Better trust your ears, they will tell you the difference anyway.
Old 25th December 2009
  #60
Lives for gear
Hey, are there any distortion specs for the amps used in these speakers? Can't find 'em on the Focal website. Usually I find that not listing a spec means it doesn't look good. Do the Twins spec well as far as THD, IMD? Also, as another poster asked, why aren't these broken in at the factory? To use the rhetorical style of the big hater space2012: hi-end microphones are broken in at the factory, hi-end amplifiers are broken in at the factory, hi-end DACs are broken in at the factory...etc Not trying to be a jerk, I am considering buying a set of twins to pair with my DAC1, the more expensive alternative being a Bryston amp and some equally classy passives like Dynaudio, ProAc, ATC or PMC. (if I go with the twins I get to spend some extra money elsewhere).
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