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Problems making hardware insert
Old 8th September 2008
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Problems making hardware insert

Yo People,

I have a strange problem making a hardware insert. I'll explain exactly.


I want to make an hardware insert on (stereo) channel 1, insert goes "ADAT 7-8".
The ADAT interface is an Apogee Rosetta 800.
The hardware is Avalon vt747sp(compressor).

So i patched the whole thing. ADAT 7-8 out to Avalon in, Avalon out to ADAT (7-8) in.
The sound that i get sounds really distorted or broken...and softer but more shhh....

I also sent to ADAT 5-6 to lexicon mpx550 no problem. (coming back on aux (input ADAT 5-6))
When i use the lexicon on channel ADAT 7-8 as insert, No problem (but why )

When i patch Avalon to ANALOG 7-8 (for example) and make it an insert No problem...(but why )
(i want to use the rosetta to go in and out to the avalon (ofcourse).


I think i don't understand what's going on...

Why does the lexicon an tc electronic work as an insert and the Avalon and the aphex not...

- I default all in/outs in PT.
- Because it works the other way around, the cables should be fine.
- i checked the settings on the apogee.
- the input on digi 1/8 is -4db
- the clock is on ADAT.

PLEASE PLEASE SOMEBODY HEEEEELLLLLP!!!!!

-Apogee rosetta 800
-Digi 002R
-Avalon vt 747sp
-Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1
-PT 7.1 cs 10

ANYBODY???


Thanx
Tuur
Old 16th September 2008
  #2
Here for the gear
 

you can't do it this way

Hey, you must get your instrument (or stereo mix) goes to avalon input, then send avalon output to ADAT 7-8 input. The reason will apear in ADAT 7-8 output. Or if you want your ADAT 7-8 output go through avalon, you can mute the input (in mixer console). If not you did create a circle in your system, and just turn the volume on you can hear some crap sounds. I think this prob can happens with your reverb if you turn the volume a bit higher.
The best way is : send the ADAT 7-8 to avalon input->send avalon output to any other input.
Or simply set the input monitor of ADAT 7-8 to another chanel. You don't like to hear the sound before and after edited on time, right?
Hope it can help Cheer.
Old 16th September 2008
  #3
I am utterly confused at your confusion.
Here is the way it works:

Take the track[s] you want to send to the outboard gear and use a "hardware insert" plug in on the insert of the channel. Assign the outputs to ADAT 7-8 OUT and then assign the inputs to the ADAT IN 7-8 on the insert plug in. Then Patch the analog outputs from the Rosetta into the outboard and back to the Rosetta inputs [7-8]. Now signal is going out and coming back into the DAW [inducing latency through ADAT and the software] and you would then ultimately feed the PHYSICAL CHANNEL OUTPUT to the stereo mix buss, which I am guessing might be Rosetta 1-2 patched into your monitors.

Make sense? Good, now I can tell you that you cannot achieve professional results with this method. There will be more phase shift artifact and latency than you'll really want, which will basically make this whole process null and void as it will degrade the tonality of your outboard.

There is a BIG difference between using time-based effects [reverb, delay, etc....] and a EQ/Comp with this method. Time based effects are latent by design, EQ/Comps should react according to the speed of light; which is not going to happen with this process. My guess is your hearing the phase shift.
Old 17th September 2008
  #4
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Forgive me, but saying that "you cannot achieve professional results" by using hardware insers is a bit of an exageration in my book...

If the conversion is good (Apogee Rosetta 800, not the top of the top, but surely professional level) and a proper latency compensation is used I cannot see why that shouldn't be considered a "professional" method...I've seen lots of "professionals" use HW inserts in their PT rigs (HD is surely better because of its automatic latency compensation), I do it myself (but I'm not sure if I'm a professional or not...heh), and it works. Conversion quality is the key, as it is the compensation of latency. It can be done on an LE system too with a certain degree of manual work and some limitations (playlists, nuging tracks etc,...); the total latency can be simply calculated by recording a transient source doing it's round trip do the DA, outboard, AD and DAW. If this is done on single tracks it works great and I prefer a real 1176 on my bass or snare then every BF or UA plug in every day. I understand that trying to do parallel compression on a drum submix with a HW insert is no such thing...even though there are ways to overcome that too (like printing a stem of the submix, squashing that with the HW compressor and putting it back in latency compensated).

Maybe I have misunderstood your post (and I have no flaming or polemic intentions at all), but I belive professional results are achieved way before we get to the latency compensation debate.

Cheers
Old 17th September 2008
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerax View Post
Forgive me, but saying that "you cannot achieve professional results" by using hardware insers is a bit of an exageration in my book...

If the conversion is good (Apogee Rosetta 800, not the top of the top, but surely professional level) and a proper latency compensation is used I cannot see why that shouldn't be considered a "professional" method...I've seen lots of "professionals" use HW inserts in their PT rigs (HD is surely better because of its automatic latency compensation), I do it myself (but I'm not sure if I'm a professional or not...heh), and it works. Conversion quality is the key, as it is the compensation of latency. It can be done on an LE system too with a certain degree of manual work and some limitations (playlists, nuging tracks etc,...); the total latency can be simply calculated by recording a transient source doing it's round trip do the DA, outboard, AD and DAW. If this is done on single tracks it works great and I prefer a real 1176 on my bass or snare then every BF or UA plug in every day. I understand that trying to do parallel compression on a drum submix with a HW insert is no such thing...even though there are ways to overcome that too (like printing a stem of the submix, squashing that with the HW compressor and putting it back in latency compensated).

Maybe I have misunderstood your post (and I have no flaming or polemic intentions at all), but I belive professional results are achieved way before we get to the latency compensation debate.

Cheers
I am only saying the inherent phase shift in an LE is not worth the hassle, as it will degrade the response of your outboard. However small that degradation is, its still there.

I'm not saying the conversion is degrading the signal, I am saying the phase shift is. All this work you explain is not a professional means to professional results. I have no patience for that amount of music killing work, when my client is paying me to produce a result.
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