The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Which 1073 clone breaks-up/distorts like the originals? 500 Series Preamps
Old 29th August 2008
  #1
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Break-up/distortion like the original 1073's.

I believe it's the the input gain slamming into the transformer that causes that smooth, fizzy break up on the old 1073's. Has anyone had luck replicating this on their 1073 clone (or, would you try it out for me?) It's not like the rough distortion you get from an 1176 or most tube gear. It's very musical.
My favorite example of this Would be the NIN "Downward Spiral" album. I don't care for that band but Sean Bevan's use of distortion on drums and vocals is incredible and he credits most of it to 1073's.
Thx.
Old 29th August 2008
  #2
The only 1073 clone (or rather reproduction) that is in every way identical to the original Neve 1073 (same transformer, same wiring, same knobs, same module chassis, etc.) is the Brent Averill 1073.

They are used as replacement modules for the original 80's series consoles in addition to being sold to studios that need a few channels of 1073's.
Old 29th August 2008
  #3
Lives for gear
 
infopimpster's Avatar
 

Really? How does the AMS/Neve variant differ from the original - componentry wise?
Old 29th August 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 
matskull's Avatar
 

I have tried the brent averill 1073 once and it truly is amazing!
Old 29th August 2008
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by infopimpster View Post
Really? How does the AMS/Neve variant differ from the original - componentry wise?
I'm not 100% sure on the specific components but the AMS/Neve re-issue sounds a bit more hi-fi to me (and a few others I've spoken with) and I know they are using something different internally, I'm just not sure which component that is.

There's nothing wrong with the AMS/Neve re-issue, except for the price point at which they are trying to sell it based on nothing more than the logo that is on the outside. You're looking at almost $6k for the module and the chassis from AMS and only $2700 for the 1U rack version from BAE. Plus, as I said, the BAE is true to form of the original 1073 in every detail (except of course the Neve logo on the front).
Old 29th August 2008
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

basic hogwash

brents stuff is great. brents a great guy . however , the fact is that there are a number of neveclone pres out there that use basically the same stuff: they are all COPIES of the preamp in a 1073,1066,1084,etc etc etc....they use new carnhill transformers ( which are the same as the old ones) and the same 183/283 style amp cards. i dont care what any mad scientist audio genius may say , put a mic on a kick drum , and tell me the difference in sound , and show me on accurate test gear where that difference may lie. as a guy who has used neve and neve clones for decades , I can only say that the drummer and the drums are the key , not who wired up the circuit, or which box its put in....as for the distortion factor , its a subjective artistic judgment ; I like distorted electric guitar, but i dont want to get it from my preamps; and i prefer vocals and drums to be clear and present; but anything can be used to effect in an artistic sense.
Old 29th August 2008
  #7
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Good points all around. However, I'm still wondering about the break-up characteristics of the 1073 clones. I have wanted to have that effect at my disposal for many years now.
Old 29th August 2008
  #8
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Good points all around. However, I'm still wondering about the break-up characteristics of the 1073 clones. I have wanted to have that effect at my disposal for many years now.
you can get this from a neve 3114... and you can drop in a phoenix audio TF1 to make the class A/B output stage class A
Old 30th August 2008
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Daedalus77's Avatar
If you have a 500 series rack or lunchbox, try driving an Avedis MA5. It will get you there.

I can't currently compare it to a vintage 1073 'cause I don't have one currently (though I've used them), but it WILL do what the BAE clone will do. With a bit less low mid "grind" (if that makes sense) and more extension in the high-end (especially with the 28K inserted).

I have both.

That's my experience. Hope that's helpful.
Old 30th August 2008
  #10
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post
If you have a 500 series rack or lunchbox, try driving an Avedis MA5. It will get you there.

I can't currently compare it to a vintage 1073 'cause I don't have one currently (though I've used them), but it WILL do what the BAE clone will do. With a bit less low mid "grind" (if that makes sense) and more extension in the high-end (especially with the 28K inserted).

I have both.

That's my experience. Hope that's helpful.
Thanks for the info. I don't have a lunchbox but I would make a rack for the MA5 if it will give me what I need.
Any chance I could talk you into making/posting a sound sample of the distortion? I would be extremely grateful.
Old 30th August 2008
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Bigbang's Avatar
 

Quote:
The only 1073 clone (or rather reproduction) that is in every way identical to the original Neve 1073 (same transformer, same wiring, same knobs, same module chassis, etc.) is the Brent Averill 1073.
But it does not sound the same as an original 1073 with Marinair or St. Ives transformers.
Old 30th August 2008
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
Radioman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian View Post
The only 1073 clone (or rather reproduction) that is in every way identical to the original Neve 1073 (same transformer, same wiring, same knobs, same module chassis, etc.) is the Brent Averill 1073.
Some DIY solution for the pres are the Seventh Circle Audio N72 (1 gain stage, like 1272) or the Sound Skulptor MP73 (2 gain stages, like the Neve 1073), they use the same Carnhill transformers BAE uses.
Old 30th August 2008
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
khai's Avatar
 

How about Vintech 1272 ?

Has anyone compared them with other clones or original modules ?
Old 30th August 2008
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Anyone here tried the Vintage Designs stuff from Mercenary?
Old 30th August 2008
  #15
Lives for gear
 
IntenseJim's Avatar
 

---> Vintage designs or Aurora

Quote:
Originally Posted by khai View Post
How about Vintech 1272 ? Has anyone compared them with other clones or original modules ?
There are a lot of threads on this comparison. Search and ye shall find.

.
Old 30th August 2008
  #16
I'll second the MA5, and generally, the only time I use the 28k boost is on kick drum (to help it punch through from time to time) or on dark guitar amps or super dark vocals. Personally, I don't use it very often because I'd rather have more control in post vs. pre mixing.

But yes, the MA5 is as Neve as I've ever heard. I'll agree that compared to the 1073 and the BAE, it has slightly tighter low mid (definition is a dangerous word to use here, but perhaps it's good), but the MA5 definitely has the "breakup" sound depending on how you drive it with the in/out knobs.

For me, it was either BAE or MA5 because I know that AMS/Neve stuff isn't the real deal. It's missing key components right from the get-go. Since I already had a lunchbox, it was a no-brainer. But even if I didn't, the price of two MA5's + a lunchbox vs. BAE's is still a no-brainer.

2 x BAE 1073 = $5,300 w/power supply vs. two MA5's + lunchbox = under $2,000! Heck, get 4 channels of MA5 and add two 512c's for variety while you're at it! =)

Of course, I'll mention one more thing too, just for kicks... for well under the price of 2 x BAE 1073, you could get 2 Great Rivers (which are a nice, modern variation of the 1073 tone that definitely break up on guitars as well) and 2 MA5's (which are essentially a 1073 with a custom Jensen transformer in the output that sounds convincing enough to me) plus a lunch box to create 4 channels of the ultimate Neve-sound setup.

The only complaint is that you don't get EQ, but as stated, to me... I'm generally a control freak in mixing, and I'd rather control things in the mix later, anyway. As for the tone, of course, you pick the right mics and pre's always first. =)

Sorry for blabbing... just wanting to tickle your brain for a few.

Peace and best of luck to you, brother. And remember: YOU make good music - not equipment. =) Chances are, you're already doing just fine if you're considering adding Neve channels to your setup.

Brad

P.S. The 1073 from AMS/Neve looks to be identical. I think it's some of those 8 channel units I read about being different. *Then again, for the price they charge PER CHANNEL, if they're not identical in every way, you're getting ripped off big time.
Old 30th August 2008
  #17
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrlk View Post
Peace and best of luck to you, brother. And remember: YOU make good music - not equipment. =) Chances are, you're already doing just fine if you're considering adding Neve channels to your setup.
Thanks Brad, I'm only looking for input gain distortion that is similar to the 1073. I've recorded on a Neve board and tried a few different modules and I have found that I don't care for the "Neve sound" as blasphemous as it may be. They've made some of my favorite records but, for my style, I prefer something tubey and ethereal.
I've just always wanted that unique distortion that I've only heard through a 1073. So, I'm essentially looking to use it as an effect. If it doubles as a nice mic preamp, then that's a bonus.
The MA5 sounds like a candidate.
Old 30th August 2008
  #18
Lives for gear
 
mdjice's Avatar
 

The Brent averil is a reat unit but DOES NOT sound exactky like a neve. After using different original 1073 over the past years I wanted one. I went thru an extensive search and tried to find a used original (too hard to find in good shape) a brent averil, a Chandler ltd-1 and a few others. At the end the only one that could actually recreate what I was looking for was a AMS Neve. (I went with the 1084 for better EQ options).
I tried a Chandler, great pre but too bright more hi-fi. I tried a Brent great pre as well but too dark for my taste.
You want that neve sound?...get a neve, you won't regret it and the price hurts once but you will love the sound everytime you use it and that for MANY years to come.
Old 30th August 2008
  #19
Gear Addict
 

neve

hello,

they nailed it with the "new" 1084s. neve. get the rack, too.

userofgear
Old 30th August 2008
  #20
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdjice View Post
You want that neve sound?....
Actually, no. I mentioned above that I don't like the Neve sound on my recordings. I just like the way that an original 1073 breaks up. I want to use it as a distortion effect like Sean Bevins did on the "Downward Spiral" album.
Old 30th August 2008
  #21
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Thanks Brad, I'm only looking for input gain distortion that is similar to the 1073. I've recorded on a Neve board and tried a few different modules and I have found that I don't care for the "Neve sound" as blasphemous as it may be. They've made some of my favorite records but, for my style, I prefer something tubey and ethereal.
I've just always wanted that unique distortion that I've only heard through a 1073. So, I'm essentially looking to use it as an effect. If it doubles as a nice mic preamp, then that's a bonus.
The MA5 sounds like a candidate.
i'd add here that part of the sound you're looking for includes the HP/LP filters.. so dont discount the EQ.

the reason i dig the 3114 is it has both filters.. its basically a chandler LTD-1 with a LP filter.. and much cheaper too... tho you have to find one.
Old 30th August 2008
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Actually, no. I mentioned above that I don't like the Neve sound on my recordings. I just like the way that an original 1073 breaks up. I want to use it as a distortion effect like Sean Bevins did on the "Downward Spiral" album.
I think most Neve clones will do the breaking up thing on the high gain settings. I use a Vintech X73i and it certainly does do it as do many of the other clones ive tried.

Old 30th August 2008
  #23
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 View Post
the reason i dig the 3114 is it has both filters.. its basically a chandler LTD-1 with a LP filter.. and much cheaper too... tho you have to find one.
Really? I used the 3114's in a Melbourn console and they got pretty buzzy when overdriven. Didn't sound like the soft, musical 1073 distortion at all. What approach are you using to get a good distortion sound?
Old 30th August 2008
  #24
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Really? I used the 3114's in a Melbourn console and they got pretty buzzy when overdriven. Didn't sound like the soft, musical 1073 distortion at all. What approach are you using to get a good distortion sound?
i think i was plugging drum machines into the mic pre input and cranking it up way too far... dont think the line input has enough gain. then filtering them into small pockets with the HP/LP/EQ.. i prolly had something after the neve module to use as a fader.. tho i'm having a hard time remembering what... probably a compressor.. or i could have been running them in series... drum machine>mic in>out>line in on 2nd neve>HEDD. i wasnt going for subtle with this one, and the LP filter was killing the fizz.

its been awhile tho, this was back around 2002..

you know the remix for Closer to God? the techno one where the mix breaks up and starts to almost gate itself?

closer to god remix

coolest sound ever... that's the one i was going for and getting with the 3114. when you crank up the gain past a certain point things get quieter and more grainy/gated/****ed up sounding... you might think as you click up the gain that it's getting too distorted and unusable but you just have to keep clicking them up higher.. it actually gets more controllable with more gain, strangely. hard to explain.

of course, we could be talking about 2 different sounds.. there are sooo many

on downward spiral i hear a lot of SSL EQ and channel dynamics... take march of the pigs for example... those drum sounds have a lot to do with the SSL gate... you can actually get real close to these with the waves SSL E channel, one of the reasons i dig it.

NIN sounds are some of the most rewarding puzzles to figure out IMO
Old 30th August 2008
  #25
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
I think most Neve clones will do the breaking up thing on the high gain settings. I use a Vintech X73i and it certainly does do it as do many of the other clones ive tried.
Good to know as that is one of the pieces I've been looking at heavily. So, would you say that it could sound like the distortion on the drums @ 3:00 in this song?
YouTube - Piggy-NIN
Sorry that the video is so lame but it's the best example of the distortion I could find.
Instead of buzzing, the sound fizzes and fades.
Old 30th August 2008
  #26
Lives for gear
 
BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 View Post
you know the remix for Closer to God? the techno one where the mix breaks up and starts to almost gate itself? coolest sound ever... that's the one i was going for and getting with the 3114. when you crank up the gain past a certain point things get quieter and more grainy/gated/****ed up sounding...
NIN sounds are some of the most rewarding puzzles to figure out IMO
I sure do! THAT is the sound I love the most. Sean said that the 1073 he used on that was malfunctioning and as he turned it up it would not get any louder but just more intense and broken sounding. His production is what really got me interested in recording about 14 years ago.
He said that the 1073 input was his primary distortion tool along w/ other, more obvious distortion techniques. I guess the vocals on the "Get Down Make Love" cover is the result of FOUR LA-4's crank'd 100% into each other.
Fun stuff.
Old 30th August 2008
  #27
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Good to know as that is one of the pieces I've been looking at heavily. So, would you say that it could sound like the distortion on the drums @ 3:00 in this song?
YouTube - Piggy-NIN
Sorry that the video is so lame but it's the best example of the distortion I could find.
Instead of buzzing, the sound fizzes and fades.
sounds like layers of neve distortion and SSL eq/filters to me.. i also hear some 1176 "all buttons in" & analog tape
Old 30th August 2008
  #28
Gear Head
 
Goldtop's Avatar
 

I'm gonna puke now......
Old 31st August 2008
  #29
Hey Bowie,

Dude... if you don't like the Neve sound for anything other than distortion: who cares? You've got to use (for regular tracking) what sounds right to your ears for your feels and styles. It's more important to have gear that works for you than gear that everyone (some ignorantly, some with reason) worships. =)

A few thoughts on the MA5 "breakup" sound. The few times I've really hit the input hard and dropped the output way down, what I notice is that the sound doesn't float on top of the mix as well, if you know what I mean? Meaning, if I don't use too much of the output transformer as part of the MA5's gain structure, whatever's running through the MA5 becomes quite "colored/saturated" to where I'd really have to crank it in a mix or just re-record it with the in/out knobs re-adjusted in order to have it "sit" more naturally in a mix. It just gets really colored/broken up to where it doesn't float on top anymore, you know what I meann? So perhaps this describes some of what you're looking for?

Of course, the other thing I was thinking of is that, if you've primarily been digging the breakup of old, original Neve 1073's, it almost makes me wonder if that wasn't at least partly due to a few aging components in them and/or the rest of the console that the 1073's may have been running through? Just another thought.

I guess I am typically more of a conventional 1073 sound liker guy. It's interesting that you're after that sound with such a specific reason in mind, but if anything, I think it's more admirable than not. Again... you've GOT to do what sounds right to you. As one of my favorite philosophers, Joe Meek, once said, "If it sounds right, it IS right." =)

Is it possible for you to find someone closer to you who's got an MA5 and just go try it for a day? I think there's a good chance that both the Avedis MA5 and/or Great River MP-500NV will do exactly what you want with the breakup. And heck, for those prices, maybe you would still want to get both to have 2 variations of the "Neve" breakup. Some people, from what I've read, prefer one or the other for breakup, but to me, the MA5 is the more versatile, balanced of the two, with the GR being slightly more of a "modern" twist perhaps. But maybe you'd like it even more than the original? Never know. Try those two if you can though. *And no, I'm not stuck on the 500 form series... but in this case, it may give you more AND more affordable options for what you're after.

Best of luck to you, brother, and God bless - Brad
Old 31st August 2008
  #30
Lives for gear
 
whitepapagold's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yrlk View Post
2 x BAE 1073 = $5,300 w/power supply vs. two MA5's + lunchbox = under $2,000! Heck, get 4 channels of MA5 and add two 512c's for variety while you're at it! =)
Jesus, you completely ignore the EQ section on the 1073... Interesting comparison without it...

At least add 2 avedis eqs then compare... This is completely worthless otherwise. My head hurts.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Rockin Daddy / High end
118
DivineMusic / So much gear, so little time
55
lukas / So much gear, so little time
10
ray dsr / So much gear, so little time
13

Forum Jump
Forum Jump