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Which 1073 clone breaks-up/distorts like the originals? 500 Series Preamps
Old 31st August 2008
  #31
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrlk View Post
Dude... if you don't like the Neve sound for anything other than distortion: who cares? You've got to use (for regular tracking) what sounds right to your ears for your feels and styles. It's more important to have gear that works for you than gear that everyone (some ignorantly, some with reason) worships. =)
Not sure if I'm reading you right, but but I think you're saying that I should get a preamp that sounds right for me. That's already covered. I've got some high-end gear that I'm very happy with. If you meant that I should ignore what everyone is saying about "which 1073 clone sounds better", and just look for the one with the best distortion, I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why these guys keep trying to tell me which one sounds better when I already said that I don't care, I just want the distortion! heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by yrlk View Post
A few thoughts on the MA5 "breakup" sound. The few times I've really hit the input hard and dropped the output way down, what I notice is that the sound doesn't float on top of the mix as well, if you know what I mean? Meaning, if I don't use too much of the output transformer as part of the MA5's gain structure, whatever's running through the MA5 becomes quite "colored/saturated" to where I'd really have to crank it in a mix or just re-record it with the in/out knobs re-adjusted in order to have it "sit" more naturally in a mix. It just gets really colored/broken up to where it doesn't float on top anymore, you know what I meann? So perhaps this describes some of what you're looking for?
Thanks, that's the kind of feedback I've been looking for. It leads me to believe that if I want the original 1073 break-up, I'm going to have to find something w/ the same transformers.
I'm looking at two options now, buy/sell some 500 series 1073 clones til I find one that works for me. Or, I can cop-out and just get a Germanium for now. I know I can use the Germanium for a variety of things I do, plus I'll have a decent distortion effect (though it's not exactly the effect I'm looking for.)
Old 1st September 2008
  #32
Gear Addict
 

distorto-man

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Not sure if I'm reading you right, but but I think you're saying that I should get a preamp that sounds right for me. That's already covered. I've got some high-end gear that I'm very happy with. If you meant that I should ignore what everyone is saying about "which 1073 clone sounds better", and just look for the one with the best distortion, I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why these guys keep trying to tell me which one sounds better when I already said that I don't care, I just want the distortion! heh



Thanks, that's the kind of feedback I've been looking for. It leads me to believe that if I want the original 1073 break-up, I'm going to have to find something w/ the same transformers.
I'm looking at two options now, buy/sell some 500 series 1073 clones til I find one that works for me. Or, I can cop-out and just get a Germanium for now. I know I can use the Germanium for a variety of things I do, plus I'll have a decent distortion effect (though it's not exactly the effect I'm looking for.)

hello,

well, it is sort of a weird inquiry, but that's alright. however, since it is so off-the-wall, maybe that is why a lot of people seem to have mistaken your question.
most people probably like 1073s because they have lots of headroom and sound full, and all that, rather than to use as a fuzzbox, hence the confusion. nevertheless, a cool sound is a cool sound.

however, on the other hand, maybe people have not really mistaken your question. after all, you are looking for something that creates a particular sound that a 1073 creates when "abused", basically. since it is obviously going to be the entire 1073 that is contributing to the sound you like, not just the input transformer, it is reasonable to think that you will probably need a 1073 to do that. therefore, the one that sounds most like a 1073 when used as intended is probably going to work for you.

however, then again, you did limit your inquiry to asking what "clone" will best approximate the sound of a 1073. so maybe an actual 1073 does not fit your criteria.

if you just want something that kind of has the overall vibe of a 1073 getting hammered, without necessarily sounding exactly like that in all respects, then one of the knock-offs will probably work. some people even say that some of the "clones" are just as good [but what do they know, right?].

brent averill used to make some kind of little 1073 thing that actually had a guitar jack for playing guitar and bass through. i do not know if he still has any those, but that might be the ticket for you.

please phrase your question in the form of a question.

userofgear
Old 1st September 2008
  #33
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Or, I can cop-out and just get a Germanium for now. I know I can use the Germanium for a variety of things I do, plus I'll have a decent distortion effect (though it's not exactly the effect I'm looking for.)
the germanium is my favorite preamp ever.. it sounds like an old motown record... its strangely natural, kinda tapeish.. and the REALLY COOL THING ABOUT IT is that it's the best turd polisher the world has ever seen... if someone gives you a GTR track with no harmonic content.. tinny, digital, no definition, no focus, just BAD.. you can bang it thru the germ with the feedback cranked and it will COME ALIVE. more so than a pultec, which is hard to believe...

i've made a lot of records for bands with no money, done a lot of "rescue" jobs. so i'm always experimenting with running less-than-optimal sounds thru some piece of gear to try and get it back to sounding like audio again. i've done more of these kind of stupid, low-yield science experiments than i care to admit.. and the germ rules for this. it's better than any compressor for adding harmonic content and motion. will stomp all over a cranesong hedd.. tho they work great together..

so the germ is great.. my fave piece of gear ever. you'll prolly dig it.

you'd prolly REALLY dig the culture vulture & the chandler TG1 too.
Old 1st September 2008
  #34
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ssaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldtop View Post
I'm gonna puke now......
Old 1st September 2008
  #35
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 View Post
the germanium is my favorite preamp ever.. it sounds like an old motown record....
That just made my day. I gave up and ordered a Germ erlier today but was feeling like I shoulda thought it through more. So, hearing you say "old motown record" has made me feel a lot better about my impulse buy. I really can't describe what that old sound does for me. It's euphoric. It's not nostalgia either because I'm only 32.
It's so ironic because you're got all those old songs that are really light-hearted, but the production is so pushed, intense, and distorted from the tape, tubes, and transformers. I like recreating that intensity and applying it to modern rock and soul.

That said, I'm still looking to find a 1073 clone that breaks-up like the 1073's on "Downward Spiral". If anyone else can tell me how theirs sounds, I'd appreciate it.
Old 1st September 2008
  #36
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whitepapagold's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
That just made my day. I gave up and ordered a Germ erlier today but was feeling like I shoulda thought it through more. So, hearing you say "old motown record" has made me feel a lot better about my impulse buy. I really can't describe what that old sound does for me. Euphoria might capture it.
It's so ironic because you're got all those old songs that are really light-hearted, but the production is so pushed, intense, and distorted from the tape, tubes, and transformers. I like recreating that intensity and applying it to modern rock and soul.

That said, I'm still looking to find a 1073 clone that breaks-up like the 1073's on "Downward Spiral". If anyone else can tell me how theirs sounds, I'd appreciate it.
Wait a minute... You ask about 1073 clones and get annoyed at the responses... And then BUY A GERMANIUM???? Without ever hearing one... Based off internet posts...

Holy crap... This is an amazing thread...

You have got to be kidding...

Another gearslutz quality thread... I can't believe where this site has gone.
Old 1st September 2008
  #37
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drundall's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
That just made my day. I gave up and ordered a Germ erlier today but was feeling like I shoulda thought it through more. So, hearing you say "old motown record" has made me feel a lot better about my impulse buy. I really can't describe what that old sound does for me. It's euphoric. It's not nostalgia either because I'm only 32.
It's so ironic because you're got all those old songs that are really light-hearted, but the production is so pushed, intense, and distorted from the tape, tubes, and transformers. I like recreating that intensity and applying it to modern rock and soul.

That said, I'm still looking to find a 1073 clone that breaks-up like the 1073's on "Downward Spiral". If anyone else can tell me how theirs sounds, I'd appreciate it.
I think I know where you're coming from, in some ways we're on the same page. But consider that part of that sound IS nostalgia, the music, arrangement, playing, and the fact that someone like Marvin Gaye is behind the mic in the first place. It's that emotion evoked in listening which comes into play while evaluating the sound of the recordings.
Old 1st September 2008
  #38
11413
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitepapagold View Post
Wait a minute... You ask about 1073 clones and get annoyed at the responses... And then BUY A GERMANIUM???? Without ever hearing one... Based off internet posts...

Holy crap... This is an amazing thread...

You have got to be kidding...

Another gearslutz quality thread... I can't believe where this site has gone.
its not like he cant return it...

germ is a great box.. and it's a more universally usable sound than smashing a 1073

if you want sanity try The Womb
Old 1st September 2008
  #39
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitepapagold View Post
Another gearslutz quality thread... I can't believe where this site has gone.
I can't stand people who talk big on the internet. Most times, the internet is the only place where these folks can get away w/ acting like that.

I have indeed heard the Germanium recorded on several sources, by several people. It was good enough to purchase as an extra preamp. However, I have not heard it used on the extreme side. But, I've read enough positive feedback about it's distortion that I will try it out and return it (at absolutely no cost to me) if I don't like it.
And, as I stated, the hunt for the elusive 1073 distortion continues. I'm not going to buy an original, just for this effect, if I can get it from one of the many clones.
Old 1st September 2008
  #40
Gear Addict
 

closer enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
And, as I stated, the hunt for the elusive 1073 distortion continues. I'm not going to buy an original, just for this effect, if I can get it from one of the many clones.
hello,

i would think you could get very close to the 1073 "distortion effect" from one of the clones, but remember that whatever you are doing to the input stage is also being affected by the rest of the 1073 and that is part of the sound.

anyhow, your best bet is probably going to be actually trying them out yourself if you want one of the "clones". nobody but you is going to be able to figure out how close is close enough to the closer sound for you.

the advantage to buying a neve would be that you would also have the authentic sound when using it as a regular mic pre. if you like that kind of sound.

i do not know whether it is good for a 1073 to be constantly overloaded.

userofgear
Old 1st September 2008
  #41
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IntenseJim's Avatar
 

Chandler TG Channel and Vintech X81 ??

Vintech X73i note comment on input gain stages of 73 vs 73i

fwiw
Old 1st September 2008
  #42
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by userofgear View Post
the advantage to buying a neve would be that you would also have the authentic sound when using it as a regular mic pre. if you like that kind of sound.
userofgear
I would argue that the main advantage to buying an authentic Neve is in the name and nothing more. For a comercial studio the words Neve 1073 on the equipment list can help to draw clients.

Soundwise i dont think many engineers would even be able to tell the difference between a real 1073 and a clone such as the BA or Vintech X73i. The double blind shootout that Vintech did with some rather well known engineers demonstrates this quite well. : : VINTECH AUDIO : :

Old 1st September 2008
  #43
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntenseJim View Post
Vintech X73i note comment on input gain stages of 73 vs 73i

fwiw
Thank you Jim.
Old 1st September 2008
  #44
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IntenseJim's Avatar
 

Sure thing.

It's not a 1073 but the Chandler TG2 can be overdriven -- two channels for $2250 -- with great tone and exceptional character. I have zero regrets and love it..
Old 2nd September 2008
  #45
Gear Addict
 

real deal

hello,

copies are copies. i always wonder why companies don't try to come up with something of their own for a product. same with artists, i guess. why are people trying to copy other artists' sounds exactly?

i also have noticed, just casually, that there are groups of people who are involved in these posting boards who just love the idea of a copy, and they will go to all kinds of elaborate lengths ["listening tests" double-blind, double-deaf, all that crap] to convince people who, for whatever reason, are asking. maybe its the expense factor.

from what i have heard, in the real world, the preferred 1073 is a neve 1073, or, actually a 1084.

that said, i think you said from the jump that you did not want to buy a neve, and you indicated the same thing later with regard to the expense. i do not really know if it make a lot of sense to buy an expensive piece of equipment just to beat the crap out of it anyway. on the other hand, its not a person, so whatever.

i still think you might like the brent averill thing that has a guitar jack since that is what you are looking to do with it. i looked on his website, and he still makes those. i have heard one used on a session and it sounded good [it was not being used as a distortion device, but i'm sure you could do that]. it was a long time ago, and i can't honestly tell you whether it was one he made out of an old neve, or if it was one he built from scratch. this was way before neve started making them again. it was one of the guys from toto who had the thing, and he was really happy with it. i am sure it would be cheaper than buying a new 1073.

if you ever decide to get one for a regular mic pre, you may want to go for the 1084 instead. its better all around.

userofgear
Old 2nd September 2008
  #46
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IntenseJim's Avatar
 

Lemme ask you guys something. I've never used a 1073 nor heard it (except on CDs, etc).
BAE, Vintech, Vintage Designs, Chandler (kind of), Aurora, Great River (kind of), etc.

Is this hunt for a 1073 clone analogous to the guitar player forums where people obsess over PAF pickups with myriads of high quality booteek and mass produced interpretations and discuss/argue about them. And most of those copies will kick ass and get the job done very well and in the end, nobody really hears a significant difference in the final mix or live production?



Old 2nd September 2008
  #47
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntenseJim View Post
Lemme ask you guys something. I've never used a 1073 nor heard it (except on CDs, etc).
BAE, Vintech, Vintage Designs, Chandler (kind of), Aurora, Great River (kind of), etc.
Is this hunt for a 1073 clone analogous to the guitar player forums where people obsess over PAF pickups with myriads of high quality booteek and mass produced interpretations and discuss/argue about them. And most of those copies will kick ass and get the job done very well and in the end, nobody really hears a significant difference in the final mix or live production?
Yea, I think that pretty much sums it up. I think, with all gear, you get to the point where the "myth" starts to take over and that last 5% difference in quality is blown WAY out of proportion.
I am guilty of it. I always "gotta have" that special something. Be it a vintage guitar pedal, exotic cable, a $300 tube, special mic, etc. In the end, I DO end up hearing a difference, and that 5% just means the world to me. Others don't notice it so much. But, to me, it's something to relish and obsess over.
Once you hear it, you can't ever live without it (until you need the cash and have to sell it).
Old 2nd September 2008
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Yea, I think that pretty much sums it up. I think, with all gear, you get to the point where the "myth" starts to take over and that last 5% difference in quality is blown WAY out of proportion.
I am guilty of it. I always "gotta have" that special something. Be it a vintage guitar pedal, exotic cable, a $300 tube, special mic, etc. In the end, I DO end up hearing a difference, and that 5% just means the world to me. Others don't notice it so much. But, to me, it's something to relish and obsess over.
Once you hear it, you can't ever live without it (until you need the cash and have to sell it).
It sounds like if you really feel this way than your best is to put your marbles on the table and step up to purchase an original. One thing is certain... you won't have any doubts if you purchase an original.

I know i would.

Lastly part of the sound of the NIN drums is not just the Neve's breaking up, but the SSL channels as well. You have to factor this in as well.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #49
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I'm going to digress and get tantial but this "drum sound thing" or "their guitar sound" seems nuts to me. Here's why:

You have GearSlutz folks saying to use this mic pre/DI and that EQ and those compressors to get 'that tone that on this record'.

You have the guitar guys (The Gear Page or Talkbass) praying down to different speakers, speaker cabs, od and distortion boxes, amp heads or combos, tube combinations, pickups, guitars woods, scale length, fret materials, etc.

And the guitar/bass forums folk never bring up the recording gear and the GS folks don't seem to mention the stuff that comes before the mic as much.

Just my impression and maybe I should not post this after working from 5am until 11pm (90 minutes to go) but.....wouldn't you want the NIN nails drum kit/synths too?
Old 2nd September 2008
  #50
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntenseJim View Post
.....wouldn't you want the NIN nails drum kit/synths too?
No, I actually dislike that band. I just happen to be in love w/ that dreak-up on the drums and vocals. Someone mentioned guitars earlier, but I actually have another technique for that involving many, many tubes.

I know that people don't understand why I would want that specific distortion, but I'm sure a lot of people also wondered why Hendrix would crank his amp up til it got distorted.

As far as the source being more important than the gear. That's a given. But this site is all about what happens from the mic onward.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #51
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BOWIE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
It sounds like if you really feel this way than your best is to put your marbles on the table and step up to purchase an original. One thing is certain... you won't have any doubts if you purchase an original.

I know i would.

Lastly part of the sound of the NIN drums is not just the Neve's breaking up, but the SSL channels as well. You have to factor this in as well.
Yea, if it comes to that, I will. I don't want to spend that much on an effect but I've wanted that sound for many years and I'm really obsessive about getting what I want heh

EDIT: I just shopped around and I see pairs selling for $4-5k. I had no idea that the price went down so much. Last time I priced them, they were around $4,500 a piece. If I can find a real 1073 for under $2,500, then I won't bother w/ clones.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #52
Gear Addict
 

what you want

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Yea, if it comes to that, I will. I don't want to spend that much on an effect but I've wanted that sound for many years and I'm really obsessive about getting what I want heh

EDIT: I just shopped around and I see pairs selling for $4-5k. I had no idea that the price went down so much. Last time I priced them, they were around $4,500 a piece. If I can find a real 1073 for under $2,500, then I won't bother w/ clones.
hello,

if it is really what you want, or like, you will probably put it too good use in your own creations.

you do not need to justify your reasons to us at all. especially if it is something you have had your eye on for a long time, and it seems that you have already thought it through with respect to whether or not is makes sense to you. it does not really have to make sense to us for you to use it creatively.

fwiw, if you buy one and then find it was not what you expected, or needed, you can probably sell it pretty easily. everyone loves those things, and its a timeless sound. you may just want to use it on a few things for the sound you have been wanting to use, and then move on. or you may keep it around as part of your toolkit. i can assure you that a 1084 or 1073 [or a pair of them] is definitely not going to suck to have. if you get a new one, i would still recommend the 1084 if they are not asking much more for them. the e.q. is better and the pre is exactly the same. exactly.

another pre that you might like would be a helios. less expensive too. my suggestion about the brent averill thing was probably no good for your purposes. i thought you just wanted it for guitar.

if you get the neve rack [somewhat expensive, but you can haggle] then they are "plug and play" [i.e. you can pull them in or out of the rack without having to ship the whole thing back to the shop, and you have quick access to the impedance switch on the backs of the modules].

rock.

userofgear
Old 2nd September 2008
  #53
Gear Addict
 

Why 1073 ?

There plenty of other vintage Neve modules in the same league
but cheaper.

I saw a 1079 recently sell for $2500.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #54
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
Yea, if it comes to that, I will. I don't want to spend that much on an effect but I've wanted that sound for many years and I'm really obsessive about getting what I want heh

EDIT: I just shopped around and I see pairs selling for $4-5k. I had no idea that the price went down so much. Last time I priced them, they were around $4,500 a piece. If I can find a real 1073 for under $2,500, then I won't bother w/ clones.
I think you may have seen prices for re-issues or something. It would be near impossible to get a hold of a vintage 1073 for 4-5k a pair.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntenseJim View Post
And the guitar/bass forums folk never bring up the recording gear and the GS folks don't seem to mention the stuff that comes before the mic as much.
thumbsup +1. Don't NIN have like rooms full of pretty much every guitar, amp and pedal available? Something tells me all that stuff could be playing a fairly integral part of their sound.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #56
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
thumbsup +1. Don't NIN have like rooms full of pretty much every guitar, amp and pedal available? Something tells me all that stuff could be playing a fairly integral part of their sound.
dirt box distortion is a totally different thing. the sounds we're talking about (usually) can't be gotten out of a dirt box.. tho this is changing to some degree.. and who has time to check them all out??! yowza

the ear candy "upper harmonic ripping sweetness" comes from abusing certain high end pieces

its much more sonically interesting to abuse high end stuff..

a good cd for this type of sonic goo is 8mm's "Songs to Love and Die By", it's Sean Beavan's post NIN project... apparently, he was the ear candy guy for NIN during the spiral. he MUST have been, you can hear the same stuff on his record. and it aint on Vrenna's.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 View Post
and you can drop in a phoenix audio TF1 to make the class A/B output stage class A
I've always wondered how close the Phoenix Audio sound is to vintage Neve - do you think they are similar? I've never heard a real 1073, but I'd describe my Phoenix DRS is kind of smooth and silky and tube like in a smearing way. Quite different to Chandler Germ, which is thick and fuzzy, IMO.
Old 2nd September 2008
  #58
11413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
I've always wondered how close the Phoenix Audio sound is to vintage Neve - do you think they are similar? I've never heard a real 1073, but I'd describe my Phoenix DRS is kind of smooth and silky and tube like in a smearing way. Quite different to Chandler Germ, which is thick and fuzzy, IMO.
the ripping "neev" distortion sound comes from blasting the input transfromer, i believe..

when i dropped the TF1s in my 3114s that aspect didnt change at all. sonically it just opened up the back end.. so it was still there only moreso, if you know what i mean. i was actually worried about the sound changing with the upgrade, but it was not an issue.

i think Davis Rhys of Phoenix Audio designed the 2254 compressor.. so he digs that sound. he's one of us.

the neve is more percussive than the germ.. they're a good compliment, 2 different varieties of GRRR

heh
Old 2nd September 2008
  #59
Gear Addict
 

hard

hello,

does anyone have any thoughts on whether or not it is damaging to a pre to overload its input?

just though it might be good to check on that before everyone goes out and toasts a few thousand dollars worth of preamps.

userofgear
Old 2nd September 2008
  #60
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Jackie Moon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOWIE View Post
I know that people don't understand why I would want that specific distortion
People that actually did crank an original 1073 do...

Good luck in your search

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