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Which is the $85 pre and which is the $2200 pre? Condenser Microphones
Old 9th December 2008
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
Mike Caffrey
i see where your coming from re the microcassette recorder.
you make many good points.
but the laws of physics are weird beasts.
heres a true story.
that taught me a big lesson, and told me i was stupid..lol.
(i like experimenting with circuits for fun.)

i once made a diy mic pre useing absolutely the lowest noise parts
ever available.
i used components with one or two nvroothertz noise.
eg transistors. low noise metal film resistors.
low esr caps etc etc.
in summary just the finest components.
then did some test vocals.
the result ? clinical as heck.
the laws of physics laughing at me.

i was sooo cheesed off at my failure i opened a bottle of wine,
and rarely for me i got "dwunk"..lol.
somehow in my drunken sleepy state i mucked around with the circuit
n inserted in the signal path a junky no name biggest piece of junk
transistor. i dont even know why i did it.
recorded vocs n played em back. my ears couldnt believe it.
a crap component had given me a sound picture/vintage character i really liked.
i mean the component was total junk with lousy specs n noise etc.
yet i preferred the vocal character to even vocs i had done in big studios
useing nice gear.
the laws of physics slapping me around n laughing at me again.

the whole stupidity of the affair was my stupidity in tearing apart the test
rig, thinking the next day i could easily recreate it.
i never did which i rue to this day.
somehow i had stumbled across a piece of magic that one time.
never to be repeated.

in summary in my travels thru circuit land n gear i suggest respectfully
one cant be definitive about gear.
(i wouldnt use a microcassette recorder though.)
ie whether low or high end gear , there can be pieces that can do magic and others that cant.
in summary i keep an open mind.
ive done vocs where a neumann mic wasnt doing it for me but a cheap 57 was.
ive done guitar traks with a beat up old guitar amp my wife found at a yard sale for
a few buks that sounded better than a costly amp i had bought at a store just a couple of days before.

thus the only rule i know is there are no rules..lol.
the problem or quest in life is finding those magic pieces of gear.

a magical vocal for me character wise is gene autry singing rudolf the red nosed reindeer.
on the radio the other day for the nth time. done in 1949.
for me, and others might disagree, its a magical vocal full of character.
i wouldnt be surprised if it was soloed on its own given the time frame that it had a noise component. my suspicion (per the laws of physics laughing at us again..) is the right kind
of noise components can give help impart character. and that ultra clean -129dbm noise
specs in lots of gear today actually might not give people the character they yearn for.
thus contributing to the clinical sound i hear in so much gear today.

mebe that vtb1 is just right for johns nice voice.
I agree 100%. The best gear is the right choice, not the "best" gear.

A likely next question to ask is which one pre is most likely to be the best choice for 100 or more different singers, the cheap one or the more expensive one?

More of a rhetorical question, but I think I know how most people would lean.
Old 9th December 2008
  #242
In conclusion I want you all to know one thing:

Every time I read that cliche about great engineers making better recording on bad gear than bar engineers on great gear, I vomit into my mouth just a little bit.


Maybe that image will cut back on it's use!!
Old 9th December 2008
  #243
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
The "all knowing" is a projection.
yeah right.
Old 10th December 2008
  #244
Gear Addict
 

I liked A better.
Old 10th December 2008
  #245
Gear Maniac
 

[QUOTE=Mike Caffrey;3719399]

Anyone who would say the words you've put in my mouth would have to be surrering from some form of altered mental status.

However, if you take the whole thing I wrote where I prefaced it with it being a function of what you can afford to do, then my statement stands.

Let's put it in numbers that fell more realistic. IF you can get the extra .0001% for a nickel, what would you do? I vomit into my mouth just a little bit.


there's the cumulative effet of all of these small improvements.





What the heck is all this gibberish? Sorry,... couldn't help myself.
Old 10th December 2008
  #246
Quote:
Originally Posted by getarzan View Post
yeah right.
Ha - proof!
Old 11th December 2008
  #247
Here for the gear
 

This was a cool test. Do you know of any cheap tube compressors that work well?
Old 12th December 2008
  #248
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
[quote=getarzan;3719745]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post

Anyone who would say the words you've put in my mouth would have to be surrering from some form of altered mental status.

However, if you take the whole thing I wrote where I prefaced it with it being a function of what you can afford to do, then my statement stands.

Let's put it in numbers that fell more realistic. IF you can get the extra .0001% for a nickel, what would you do? I vomit into my mouth just a little bit.


there's the cumulative effet of all of these small improvements.
What the heck is all this gibberish? Sorry,... couldn't help myself.





when you get to the top of the food chain that Extra 1% is going to count alot so if your trying to debate that yes its worth the money if your worth your salt and are competing on the top but if your just a home studio project then its alright to go with the cheaper stuff.. sooner or later your ears will reveal what youve been missing....but in order for that to happen you have to grow as an engineer and gone thru cheap gear to good gear up your recording techniques before you train your ears to hear the real thing. id have to agree with Mr. Caffrey he has lots of knowledge and time in recording.. you can argue all you want ,you will know when you get there.
Old 12th December 2008
  #249
[QUOTE=Chaellus;3726863]
Quote:
Originally Posted by getarzan View Post






when you get to the top of the food chain that Extra 1% is going to count alot so if your trying to debate that yes its worth the money if your worth your salt and are competing on the top but if your just a home studio project then its alright to go with the cheaper stuff.. sooner or later your ears will reveal what youve been missing....but in order for that to happen you have to grow as an engineer and gone thru cheap gear to good gear up your recording techniques before you train your ears to hear the real thing. id have to agree with Mr. Caffrey he has lots of knowledge and time in recording.. you can argue all you want ,you will know when you get there.
Thanks for the kind words.

I think most project studios do what I was suggesting and they usually don't choose the cheaper gear because it's good enough, they choose what they can afford and if they could afford and extra $100/$500/$5000 for a 1% difference, they'd spend it.
Old 12th December 2008
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by computa View Post
happens all the time in these shootouts
LOL... human nature
Old 12th December 2008
  #251
Gear Maniac
 
Stisse's Avatar
What is good or bad is highly subjective, and probably depending on current fashion (i.e. 80's).

I agree with Caffrey. To raise the bar even more... Not only are we in the business of catching good sounds, but perhaps even more to create the best/truest possible documentation, or imprint if you will, of a cultural expression.

Would you prefer a 3MP or 33MP camera? Yes, the 3MP has that permanent sepia tone that looks awsome for a vintage vibe whereas the 33MP tells more of the actual truth. I hope the analogy is viable to some extent.


Stisse
Old 12th December 2008
  #252
Gear Addict
 

I checked out the two dry samples and B sounds much better. Im not sure wich one is the expensive pre but its probably B. The lows are too muddy on A and also B has a nice top end to it.
Bigos
Saraswati Studios
Old 12th December 2008
  #253
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Chaellus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigos View Post
I checked out the two dry samples and B sounds much better. Im not sure wich one is the expensive pre but its probably B. The lows are too muddy on A and also B has a nice top end to it.
Bigos
Saraswati Studios

B it is
Old 13th December 2008
  #254
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post


when you get to the top of the food chain that Extra 1% is going to count alot so if your trying to debate that yes its worth the money if your worth your salt and are competing on the top but if your just a home studio project then its alright to go with the cheaper stuff.. sooner or later your ears will reveal what youve been missing....but in order for that to happen you have to grow as an engineer and gone thru cheap gear to good gear up your recording techniques before you train your ears to hear the real thing. id have to agree with Mr. Caffrey he has lots of knowledge and time in recording.. you can argue all you want ,you will know when you get there.
You guys crack me up. I grew up next to a recording studio. I started doing my first fader moves during live recordings on tape , at age 14. I'm glad you and ..Mr. Caffrey... feel you're on top of the food chain, stroking each other's egos. That's fine. The only way anyone can form an opinion about how great ANYTHING is , is purely through comparison. You both obviously feel you've gained perspective on quality gear after having used increasingly "better/ more expensive" equipment through the years. Hats off to you. You may have some better gear than I do , but "I'll bet the farm" neither of you have better ears. You can't buy those. God gave me a great set , and that's what has kept my interest in music and recording for 25 years. Mr Caffrey has probably got plenty of talent as an engineer , as he obviously has a passion for music as well. That's why anyone comes to this site , for example. There's one thing to be good. There's another to be arrogant. If you take time to look , you'll find that the people in this world who have achieved the most and have succeeded to the greatest level in their field are in fact the most humble.
Old 13th December 2008
  #255
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sahiaman's Avatar
 

I rather stick a $85 mic pre on a great preformer with a great song, than a $2000 mic pre on an ok preformer with an ok song.
Old 13th December 2008
  #256
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahiaman View Post
I rather stick a $85 mic pre on a great preformer with a great song, than a $2000 mic pre on an ok preformer with an ok song.
No ****.

Why is this always repeated here every friggin day? Is there REALLY anyone on this forum that would think otherwise?

I almost wish there was a forum rule against this

sorry....I'm easily annoyed right now
Old 13th December 2008
  #257
Lives for gear
 
sahiaman's Avatar
 

Well no **** is right. But you wouldn't think it reading through all of the posts in this thread would you?
Old 13th December 2008
  #258
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synthoid's Avatar
 

I wonder if guys who build race cars get this kind of thing.

"I'll take Mario Andretti in a 1976 Pinto over some ****ty driver in an F1 Ferrari"

<everyone puts down wrenches and stops working on F1 Ferrari>

-synthoid
Old 13th December 2008
  #259
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
I wonder if guys who build race cars get this kind of thing.

"I'll take Mario Andretti in a 1976 Pinto over some ****ty driver in an F1 Ferrari"

<everyone puts down wrenches and stops working on F1 Ferrari>

-synthoid
Would love to see a forum rule against car analogies too.
Old 13th December 2008
  #260
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahiaman View Post
Well no **** is right. But you wouldn't think it reading through all of the posts in this thread would you?
No, it's a given. That's the point.

Anyone here would have to be a complete IDIOT to think otherwise.
Old 13th December 2008
  #261
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by getarzan View Post
You guys crack me up. I grew up next to a recording studio. I started doing my first fader moves during live recordings on tape , at age 14. I'm glad you and ..Mr. Caffrey... feel you're on top of the food chain, stroking each other's egos. That's fine. The only way anyone can form an opinion about how great ANYTHING is , is purely through comparison. You both obviously feel you've gained perspective on quality gear after having used increasingly "better/ more expensive" equipment through the years. Hats off to you. You may have some better gear than I do , but "I'll bet the farm" neither of you have better ears. You can't buy those. God gave me a great set , and that's what has kept my interest in music and recording for 25 years. Mr Caffrey has probably got plenty of talent as an engineer , as he obviously has a passion for music as well. That's why anyone comes to this site , for example. There's one thing to be good. There's another to be arrogant. If you take time to look , you'll find that the people in this world who have achieved the most and have succeeded to the greatest level in their field are in fact the most humble.


well im glad i can crack you up because the last thing i want to do is the opposite. I never insinuated that I or Mr. Caffrey were at the top of the chain and he can speak for himself on behalf of that but i do still find the notion of what i spoke on my last post to ring true....Ego? i dont have an ego , my participation here isnt to shun anyone or to put down someones idea or opinion of what is better but to educate them on what they percieve is better and what is actually better there is a diffrence you know and when first devloping and training your ears the lines can be a big blur. Obviously someone with more time and experiance will understand what clues to look for when picking out gear they think pairs well with the artist and performance...money isnt the main issue here..High Quality is high quality period....There are tools of high quality that dont cost a pretty penny but the reality is that most do, the same can be said about Cheaper costing Gear..not all cheap costing Gear is Cheap but most is. Im glad you have a passion for music ,15 years more than me..hats off to you, but wouldnt you agree that if you had all the means and funds to get the best product out there that you would because of the sake of Art and Craft? I put all i can into my work and i wont let price be a factor nor will i be biased towards a certain process or way of working with gear, that only hinders your ability to do your job. To me it has become that the Artist's job is to create and illustrate the best performance they can and that the Engineer will capture every emotion of that performance and preserve and visualize that vision to the best of their ability. Im glad you think you have better ears than both Mike and me but talk about ego... you said it best when you stated that the most succesful people are usually full of humility and grace but im not arrogant nor will i claim that i am humble either only fellow peers can make that assumption.
Old 13th December 2008
  #262
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post



well im glad i can crack you up because the last thing i want to do is the opposite. I never insinuated that I or Mr. Caffrey were at the top of the chain and he can speak for himself on behalf of that but i do still find the notion of what i spoke on my last post to ring true....Ego? i dont have an ego , my participation here isnt to shun anyone or to put down someones idea or opinion of what is better but to educate them on what they percieve is better and what is actually better there is a diffrence you know and when first devloping and training your ears the lines can be a big blur. Obviously someone with more time and experiance will understand what clues to look for when picking out gear they think pairs well with the artist and performance...money isnt the main issue here..High Quality is high quality period....There are tools of high quality that dont cost a pretty penny but the reality is that most do, the same can be said about Cheaper costing Gear..not all cheap costing Gear is Cheap but most is. Im glad you have a passion for music ,15 years more than me..hats off to you, but wouldnt you agree that if you had all the means and funds to get the best product out there that you would because of the sake of Art and Craft? I put all i can into my work and i wont let price be a factor nor will i be biased towards a certain process or way of working with gear, that only hinders your ability to do your job. To me it has become that the Artist's job is to create and illustrate the best performance they can and that the Engineer will capture every emotion of that performance and preserve and visualize that vision to the best of their ability. Im glad you think you have better ears than both Mike and me but talk about ego... you said it best when you stated that the most succesful people are usually full of humility and grace but im not arrogant nor will i claim that i am humble either only fellow peers can make that assumption.
Nice attempt to slam me by comparing "ego" comments. If you take a moment to read my comments a little closer you'll find I wrote that I'm confident that neither you or Mike have ...better ears than I. That would mean perhaps they are equal. I didn't take credit for having good ears. That, I credit to God. He also made me colorblind too. Yes I'll agree... you're not humble. Maybe you shouldn't be. Greatness follows humility. Like I said once before , I come here to share experience and learn from other who "actually" know. You are the types I would like to avoid since you come here to "educate" only, since you think you already know everything. Since you say I've got 15 years experience more than you and I'm not that old, I'm talking to an arrogant kid who spent more money than he needed to buy high end gear , thinking THAT would let him sound like a professional. Money availability isn't holding me back from spending excessive amounts on over priced/ over hyped gear. Intelligence is. My ear is going to save me thousands because there is a load of great audio equipment available without spending a fortune. Good day.
Old 13th December 2008
  #263
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iomegaman's Avatar
 

The amount of ego that crawled into this thread is remarkable.

I guess its to be expected with engineers and all, such an opinionated lot.

Back to the OP...I like "A" best, but that could be a the "first in" effect.

What I will tell you is this, it is quite possible to get a really decent sounding pre these days for very little coin and this thread above all proves that.

The very fact that many liked "A" over "B" should give us all "pause" considering the proper engineering mantra that in order for it to be VERY good it must be "VERY" expensive.

Theres a few of things I've noticed lately,

1: good pre's and A/D converters are no longer the sole possession of the elite.

2: Digital EQ's are really pretty much the same the same and a good way to fine tune what an outboard EQ will get you in the ballpark for.

3. The noise floor of ones ego is directly proportional to the compression ratio of ones gratitude... The less you are thankful for the harder it is to hear what you mean over all the other crap coming out of your post...

I find as a general rule I no longer read posters who are arrogant, but immediately read the post of the humble looking for truth...
Old 13th December 2008
  #264
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i dont buy into the car analogy i'm afraid.
we are talking two major different industrial technologies.
cars n pro audio. big difference.
the fact is even inexpensive pro audio gear has come a long way due to
advances in technology.
if anyone ever gets hold of a raytheon ic data book.
theres an interesting mic pre circuit in it.
showing a jensen transformer into a op37 op amp.
the hardest part is the bipolar power supply.
Old 13th December 2008
  #265
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sahiaman's Avatar
 

As much as technology has advanced I find it funny that people still think that a good product can't be bought for cheap these days. While quality control might leave something to be desired, the sound quality of lower end gear has improved considerably.

Consider the Apogee Duet, for $500 it can seriously kick the ass of many more price converters and pres.
Old 13th December 2008
  #266
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sahiaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
No, it's a given. That's the point.

Anyone here would have to be a complete IDIOT to think otherwise.
Alright, I see your point. Now, have a
Old 14th December 2008
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sahiaman View Post
Well no **** is right. But you wouldn't think it reading through all of the posts in this thread would you?
I'm with you man... your right on!
Old 14th December 2008
  #268
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Chaellus's Avatar
[quote=getarzan;3729670]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post

Nice attempt to slam me by comparing "ego" comments. If you take a moment to read my comments a little closer you'll find I wrote that I'm confident that neither you or Mike have ...better ears than I. That would mean perhaps they are equal. I didn't take credit for having good ears. That, I credit to God. He also made me colorblind too. Yes I'll agree... you're not humble. Maybe you shouldn't be. Greatness follows humility. Like I said once before , I come here to share experience and learn from other who "actually" know. You are the types I would like to avoid since you come here to "educate" only, since you think you already know everything. Since you say I've got 15 years experience more than you and I'm not that old, I'm talking to an arrogant kid who spent more money than he needed to buy high end gear , thinking THAT would let him sound like a professional. Money availability isn't holding me back from spending excessive amounts on over priced/ over hyped gear. Intelligence is. My ear is going to save me thousands because there is a load of great audio equipment available without spending a fortune. Good day.




now your making me laugh with all your remarks.....and no you didnt say your ears where better but by stating your betting the farm and from the context of which you said things its coming off to me as if you are blindly trying to get the hint across. I Come here to Learn just as much as you do if not more and i come here to help those who welcome help as well...you never stop learning new ideas no matter how much experiance you obtain....you are the only person creating problems here and if you were trying to avoid me well your doing a bad job of it ,by the way im not the one whos arrogant. Thanks for assuming im a kid just because ive only been in this 10 years doesnt make me a kid... i know people who are 50 years old and only have 10-20 years experiance... so what your 39 big ****in deal, thanks for assuming everything...and i bet you also assume i spend boats load of cash on gear just because its hyped right? you sound ridclious right now with that statement....i really dont want to even hound you for it but i feel like your just a bitter man.... so ill leave it at that...nothing was ever gained from arguing and its not in my nature to continue this kind of silly antic plus your vision of me as a know it all is very scewed...i gained my experiance from trail and error and learning from my mentors never did i say i knew it all, that kind of display is unprofessional and thats not what im about so good day.
Old 14th December 2008
  #269
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swafford's Avatar
 

I prefer the pres I have.
Old 14th December 2008
  #270
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post





now your making me laugh with all your remarks.....and no you didnt say your ears where better but by stating your betting the farm and from the context of which you said things its coming off to me as if you are blindly trying to get the hint across. I Come here to Learn just as much as you do if not more and i come here to help those who welcome help as well...you never stop learning new ideas no matter how much experiance you obtain....you are the only person creating problems here and if you were trying to avoid me well your doing a bad job of it ,by the way im not the one whos arrogant. Thanks for assuming im a kid just because ive only been in this 10 years doesnt make me a kid... i know people who are 50 years old and only have 10-20 years experiance... so what your 39 big ****in deal, thanks for assuming everything...and i bet you also assume i spend boats load of cash on gear just because its hyped right? you sound ridclious right now with that statement....i really dont want to even hound you for it but i feel like your just a bitter man.... so ill leave it at that...nothing was ever gained from arguing and its not in my nature to continue this kind of silly antic plus your vision of me as a know it all is very scewed...i gained my experiance from trail and error and learning from my mentors never did i say i knew it all, that kind of display is unprofessional and thats not what im about so good day.

Take it easy young fella. Does your mom know you got into some chocolate?
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