The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Which is the $85 pre and which is the $2200 pre? Condenser Microphones
Old 3rd December 2008
  #121
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Wow! I checked and I was wrong. Then I realized I wasn't listening with my Cranesong HEDD. I re-listened to tracks and now it became painfully obvious that you can't hear anything critically without a great DAC. I rely on a prosumer PCMCIA based RME DAC for mobile gigs. This test convinced me I need to ditch it for something more high end when on the road.

When I listened to the clips with the Cranesong B is smooth, detailed and fits into the mix better.
A. becomes harsh, irritating and sounds like someone is trying to pierce your eardrum with an icepick. Imagine 20 tracks of that stacked!

This test just proves that you can't rely on a prosumer DAC for critical listening.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #122
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Wow! I checked and I was wrong. Then I realized I wasn't listening with my Cranesong HEDD. I re-listened to tracks and now it became painfully obvious that you can't hear anything critically without a great DAC. I rely on a prosumer PCMCIA based RME DAC for mobile gigs. This test convinced me I need to ditch it for something more high end when on the road.

When I listened to the clips with the Cranesong B is smooth, detailed and fits into the mix better.
A. becomes harsh, irritating and sounds like someone is trying to pierce your eardrum with an icepick. Imagine 20 tracks of that stacked!

This test just proves that you can't rely on a prosumer DAC for critical listening.

Nice try.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #123
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Nice try.
Come on we all know that DACs sound different (especially something like my RME compared to my Cranesong) and that you need a pro DAC to make criitical listening judgements. Doesn't it make sense that the pre wouldn't translate properly on a prosumer DAC?
Old 3rd December 2008
  #124
Gear Addict
 

Dunno. I listened using Sony 7509's plugged into my computer and it was fairly obvious that B was the more expensive mic. In terms of smoothness and depth there was no comparison (to my ears). It was only on switching that I really noticed how fatiguing A was.

It might have been a different story if I just listened on crappy computer speakers though. I could well have chosen otherwise.

The lesson we all learned is that crappy speakers that only cost a couple of bucks are not suited to critical listening.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #125
Lives for gear
 

Cool. I Just came across this thread after someone obviously dug it up.

Why does the B pre sound so average? The guy sounds really lispy, like a bad de-esser.

The entire A sample is louder and brighter than the B, but I would still pick A as a better vocal pre for this singer.

I guess the OP used the same plug-in settings for both pres? Although I think there is more reverb on the A file... Hmm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Come on we all know that DACs sound different (especially something like my RME compared to my Cranesong) and that you need a pro DAC to make criitical listening judgements. Doesn't it make sense that the pre wouldn't translate properly on a prosumer DAC?
And LOL!!
Old 3rd December 2008
  #126
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
wow after listing to the files i liked B more, has all the definition A sound tiny and brittle by comparision, should i say cheap sounding, i have no idea what is what? but by the listing i liked B more than A, hope im not wrong.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #127
Gear Addict
 
Fieldstone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Come on we all know that DACs sound different (especially something like my RME compared to my Cranesong) and that you need a pro DAC to make criitical listening judgements. Doesn't it make sense that the pre wouldn't translate properly on a prosumer DAC?
Maybe. But most listeners (music consumers) are listening on prosumer equipment at best. So I'd say, if it sounds better on prosumer gear....coolbeans.

If engineering is a science, listening is an art. I thought A sounded best for this application. B seemed a bit harsh (for my taste)...
Old 3rd December 2008
  #128
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post
Cool. I Just came across this thread after someone obviously dug it up.



I guess the OP used the same plug-in settings for both pres? Although I think there is more reverb on the A file... Hmm.



wait a minute , you mean to tell me this **** is processed? well thats not an accurate A/ comparison....either way i still B is superior...it has a bigger fuller image, A is has a tiny image, is to brittle... and lacks luster.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #129
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post
wow after listing to the files i liked B more, has all the definition A sound tiny and brittle by comparision, should i say cheap sounding, i have no idea what is what? but by the listing i liked B more than A, hope im not wrong.
Oh you are not wrong my friend. Cheap, tiny and brittle were exactly the words I was looking for to describe A after listening to them on good converters. Good job for not peaking at the results and listening blind. This prooves it.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #130
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fieldstone View Post
Maybe. But most listeners (music consumers) are listening on prosumer equipment at best. So I'd say, if it sounds better on prosumer gear....coolbeans.
But everything I read on this site says converters and pres are the most important items worth discussing.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #131
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Oh you are not wrong my friend. Cheap, tiny and brittle were exactly the words I was looking for to describe A after listening to them on good converters. Good job for not peaking at the results and listening blind. This prooves it.

the results were posted already? i just downloaded the files and didnt reallt scower the pages....im heading out in a bit but could you pm the answers, all i know is i liked B over A night and day but i have no clue which one is which...if you cold that be cool.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #132
Gear Maniac
 
Kim Bjäle's Avatar
 

Don`t have the time but...

A, sounds richer (more full) and "B" sounds much more "distressed" and hyped. Will go back and watch the results `cause I`m looking for a good grunge vox sound.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #133
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Luminous View Post
Vast majority preferred A before the results were announced. Now everyone seems to prefer B. Mmmmmh....

happens all the time in these shootouts
Old 3rd December 2008
  #134
Gear Maniac
 
Kim Bjäle's Avatar
 

hmmmm....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Wow! I checked and I was wrong. Then I realized I wasn't listening with my Cranesong HEDD. I re-listened to tracks and now it became painfully obvious that you can't hear anything critically without a great DAC. I rely on a prosumer PCMCIA based RME DAC for mobile gigs. This test convinced me I need to ditch it for something more high end when on the road.

When I listened to the clips with the Cranesong B is smooth, detailed and fits into the mix better.
A. becomes harsh, irritating and sounds like someone is trying to pierce your eardrum with an icepick. Imagine 20 tracks of that stacked!

This test just proves that you can't rely on a prosumer DAC for critical listening.
I listened through my Creative computer speakers and I found out what I previousily posted. Maybe I should buy a Crane Song Hedd instead of listening to my "bad" Benchmark converters? My Yamaha 50m`s and my Quested
is getting old.
Old 3rd December 2008
  #135
Gear Maniac
 
Kim Bjäle's Avatar
 

I Like A

A, AA
Old 4th December 2008
  #136
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaellus View Post
wow after listing to the files i liked B more, has all the definition A sound tiny and brittle by comparision, should i say cheap sounding, i have no idea what is what? but by the listing i liked B more than A, hope im not wrong.
But you have Golden ears, right?
Old 4th December 2008
  #137
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
Oh you are not wrong my friend. Cheap, tiny and brittle were exactly the words I was looking for to describe A after listening to them on good converters. Good job for not peaking at the results and listening blind. This prooves it.
Give it up man. You get one choice regardless of the standard of your DAC and yours was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero
Night and day difference between the two.
A. Clear, detailed, 3D
B. Flat, harsh, almost like a blanket was thrown over the mic.
What's up with your original system? I hope you don't check your mixes with it.
Old 4th December 2008
  #138
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post
Give it up man. You get one choice regardless of the standard of your DAC and yours was:



What's up with your original system? I hope you don't check your mixes with it.
System I checked on originally was RME (not externally clocked). One choice regardless of DAC? I thought DACs were extremely important in judging the accuracy of mixes. If it sounded good through a prosumer DAC but horrible through a real pro DAC which would you trust?
Old 4th December 2008
  #139
Gear Maniac
 
jaykay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero
System I checked on originally was RME (not externally clocked). One choice regardless of DAC? I thought DACs were extremely important in judging the accuracy of mixes. If it sounded good through a prosumer DAC but horrible through a real pro DAC which would you trust?
I think you're fighting a losing battle, better to know when to give up and get out those golden ears cd's
Old 4th December 2008
  #140
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gm5k View Post
the microphone is MUCH more important.

awesome mic and cheap pre over cheap mic and awesome pre any day.
I totally disagree. How many hit records were sang through an SM57, SM58, or SM7. With a great preamp- any of these inexpensive mics can sound amazing. And often at big studios vocalists test out different mics, and a lot of the time wind up using cheaper mics, with great preamps. That's my 2 cents. Me, I own a Rode NTK, an SM7, and an Audio Technica. For preamps I have the API A2D, and the Avalon M5. I think pre's are more important. And even less important, A/D converters. Though I do love the converters on my A2D.
I prefered sample A. Amazing vocalist. Both sound good cause the singer is great
Old 4th December 2008
  #141
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
But you have Golden ears, right?

what statement are you coming to?and i never said i had golden Ears, stop this sarcastic ****, i never pulled your leg. I said B sounds hell of alot better than A, i just saw this post today and decided to take a listen and althought A was brighter it was cheap sounding, the stereo image was small and lacked any depth.. listen to B and all the qualites of a high end pre where there...people get fooled at times when they think hi end eq they think ah its better or when its louder...what gives away the quality of a unit to me is how much depth it has how much girth and weather it fits right in nicely, to put it this way id take B over A anyday i still dont know which is which, id be surprised if B is the 85 dollar mic pre but after using so many high end pres and the same with cheaper i pretty much have ways of knowing which is more likely to be..so im going with B being the more expensive one.
Old 4th December 2008
  #142
Gear Addict
 
Fieldstone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
But everything I read on this site says converters and pres are the most important items worth discussing.
That was just my humble opinion.

I know there are a lot of posts that talk about pres and converters...but don't believe everything you read on this site. Everyone has different opinions...they are fine to get, but I then try to listen for myself.

For now, my conclusion is that as long as you have a useable preamp, the mic and mic placement can have a greater effect on the sculpture of the sound.
Old 4th December 2008
  #143
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaykay View Post
I think you're fighting a losing battle, better to know when to give up and get out those golden ears cd's
I think I was unfairly influenced by not knowing which pre was which before hand. IE listening blind biased my ability to properly analyze the sound.
Old 4th December 2008
  #144
Gear Maniac
 

WOW, what a gas!! This thread is great ! You know what's funny ? You get a bunch of "know it alls" in a room and find out...nobody knows anything. Anyone who knows their way around a mixer can take a cheap piece of gear and an elite piece of gear....A/B them... and "make" the cheap one sound better... in the mix. Whether this guy did this on purpose or by accident, it's irrelevant. EQ changes can be HUGE in a mix. Presence and simple fader changes can be HUGE as well. Who's to say the settings on either units were set to their max potential - in order to accurately compare them. I don't believe that the settings were adjusted properly for the mixing of the vocal on ex. B. Faded in and out too much.

As far as "taking time to listen to the examples on my million dollar set up" and then..."Oh yeah, now I can tell"... BuLLL. I'm listening to it on my imac , using a decent pair of Sony headphones ; like most of the general population would , and ex. A sounds better.

When I get more time , I'd like to make some A/B's for people to listen to on a similar thread as well. Something more evenly matched if I could. Thanks. This was fun.
Old 4th December 2008
  #145
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by getarzan View Post
WOW, what a gas!! This thread is great ! You know what's funny ? You get a bunch of "know it alls" in a room and find out...nobody knows anything. Anyone who knows their way around a mixer can take a cheap piece of gear and an elite piece of gear....A/B them... and "make" the cheap one sound better... in the mix. Whether this guy did this on purpose or by accident, it's irrelevant.
It's really difficult to make cheap gear sound even passable so I doubt this is the case. More likely he used two pieces of really nice gear. From what everyone says here the VTB1 suffers from inferior components and sounds like crap. There is no way he could have used that pre and got the results he did. Something fishy is going on.
Old 4th December 2008
  #146
Gear Maniac
 

When I say "cheap" gear , I mean inexpensive gear. Not necessarily poor in quality. I don't think you have to break the bank in order to sound good. A buddy of mine who has a post production studio claims he has a lot of people come in with some really great sounding recordings - made on some really "non-professional" gear. And..... some people bring in songs recorded using some major "big time" gear, and they sound lousy.
Old 4th December 2008
  #147
Lives for gear
Fishy, huh? I really wonder why I even bother posting...
Old 4th December 2008
  #148
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhero View Post
There is no way he could have used that pre and got the results he did.
Uh, yeah...there is. I plugged a mic into it and then ran it into a Rosetta. Then I pressed record. And for a mere $85, you too can achieve that glorious sound.
Old 4th December 2008
  #149
Gear Maniac
 

Hey Mister. It sounded pretty nice to these "cheap" ears of mine. The cheapest part of my studio (my ears), ...but worth the most. If you can make an inexpensive piece of gear sound good, Hat's off to ya. You know something about what you're doing.
Old 4th December 2008
  #150
Gear Maniac
 
Gearhero's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by getarzan View Post
When I say "cheap" gear , I mean inexpensive gear. Not necessarily poor in quality. I don't think you have to break the bank in order to sound good. A buddy of mine who has a post production studio claims he has a lot of people come in with some really great sounding recordings - made on some really "non-professional" gear. And..... some people bring in songs recorded using some major "big time" gear, and they sound lousy.
Yes but everyone bashes the VTB1 and says the difference between it and more expensive pres are night and day and that their girlfriends can tell the difference. How could so many people on this board be wrong?
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
meldar produxshu / So much gear, so little time
8
themaidsroom / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
5
danchi / So much gear, so little time
6
kittonian / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
4

Forum Jump
Forum Jump