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Tape is back! :-) Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 19th October 2008
  #181
PDC
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The whole thing to me is a bit silly. You still have to do some form of tape management. Back in the day, we would track drums on the Otari or Studer, submixing them to another locked machine's two tracks. That submix would be on the tape to receive the ODs, etc. We did not play the tape any more than we had to, and we most certainly did not want to record over it more than we had to. The machines would be locked at mix down with the orignal drum tape played for maybe the second or third time. So is this modern tape good enough to be used over and over like that? I would be curious to hear of someone's experiences cutting say drums or bass, and then running out of tape, having to rewind and then complete the session on used tape. I want to hear if that makes people's ears happy.
Old 19th October 2008
  #182
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i am always amazed by GP9 and how solid it was.........
the two machine lockup i think is ideal, but that is also
a world that involves no digital.

digital has destroyed so much........

the best digital i have heard starts its electrical life
as two inch 8 track
i am looking forward to upgrading my hd rig
with ada nyquist 96k converters - they may
be able to impart the most of the 2" 8 track
into the digital world
i can not see a world without my tape recorder
digital recording just sounds wrong to me, and it usually
does so in less than 30 seconds.....
the best of 1957 , in my opinion , blows away
the finest of digital recording 2008 with a seven figure budget:
it is truly surreal to me that people accept that sonic compromise
the marriage of convenience and passion is truly ill-founded
and strange


anyway
be well



- jack
Old 22nd October 2008
  #183
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Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC View Post
The whole thing to me is a bit silly. You still have to do some form of tape management. Back in the day, we would track drums on the Otari or Studer, submixing them to another locked machine's two tracks. That submix would be on the tape to receive the ODs, etc. We did not play the tape any more than we had to, and we most certainly did not want to record over it more than we had to. The machines would be locked at mix down with the orignal drum tape played for maybe the second or third time. So is this modern tape good enough to be used over and over like that? I would be curious to hear of someone's experiences cutting say drums or bass, and then running out of tape, having to rewind and then complete the session on used tape. I want to hear if that makes people's ears happy.
It's really not a problem. As I said in my earlier post, you just calibrate the machine and as long as all the frequencies are coming back where they should, by definition, you're good. 18k at -2db on a new tape is the same as 18k at -2db on a 6 month old tape.

Remember that you're recording fresh and dumping as soon as it gets recorded.

That's different from the traditional method of say recording drums, then spending a month doing overdubs running that same tape and maybe wearing down the drums you recorded because you keep playing that same section of tape. Also maybe some slight erasure might tape place.

This type of erosion is not taking place with the Clasp method where you calibrate, record and dump all in the same day. As long as the tape has not lost so much metal oxide that it literally can not hold a signal, it's ok, and as I said, you can check this simply by running tones. If it reproduces 50hz through 18k at expected levels, the tape is good.
Old 22nd October 2008
  #184
PDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep Dude View Post
It's really not a problem. As I said in my earlier post, you just calibrate the machine and as long as all the frequencies are coming back where they should, by definition, you're good. 18k at -2db on a new tape is the same as 18k at -2db on a 6 month old tape.

Remember that you're recording fresh and dumping as soon as it gets recorded.

That's different from the traditional method of say recording drums, then spending a month doing overdubs running that same tape and maybe wearing down the drums you recorded because you keep playing that same section of tape. Also maybe some slight erasure might tape place.

This type of erosion is not taking place with the Clasp method where you calibrate, record and dump all in the same day. As long as the tape has not lost so much metal oxide that it literally can not hold a signal, it's ok, and as I said, you can check this simply by running tones. If it reproduces 50hz through 18k at expected levels, the tape is good.
No, I remember what used tape sounded like before. I also remember certain machines not completely erasing. There is more to this than running tones.
Old 22nd October 2008
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep Dude View Post
That's different from the traditional method of say recording drums, then spending a month doing overdubs running that same tape and maybe wearing down the drums you recorded because you keep playing that same section of tape. Also maybe some slight erasure might tape place.
Nothing is wearing down, except the backing of the tape if your machine isn't in proper condition. I know guys that have been using the same reel for years without issue. Rust never sleeps - it's always there

Tape is in contact with the head for .066 of a second at 15ips when recording. After 10 passes barely over half a second. Any shedding on bad tape isn't shedding any music at all - only the tape backing (mylar or whatever they used) - the music is intact.

As far as erasing is concerned - if you use the same tape on the same machine, there is ZERO issue. The only issue is "print through" while in storage. But that'll happen in the first few days and will happen to brand new, or very old tape - makes no difference. Store them tails out, library wind - it helps alot.

If you don't know where the tape came from, that can be a problem. Bulk erase it and assign it to one of your machines and your golden.

The main issue isn't tape at all actually. The only merit I can see to this clasp system is that your not working your tape machine very hard - it will last longer with fewer repairs.
Old 23rd October 2008
  #186
PDC
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You are saying that the particles are not what come off with wear? I don't think so. Why would you ever have to clean your heads, capstan, pinch roller and guides if the rust never left the mylar?
Old 23rd October 2008
  #187
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A27Hull's Avatar
 

You'd want to clean the metal parts so as to keep environmental elements like dust and debris from building up and possibly clogging up gears. I don't think tape is so fragile that running over polished and clean guides causes shedding.
Old 23rd October 2008
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC View Post
You are saying that the particles are not what come off with wear? I don't think so. Why would you ever have to clean your heads, capstan, pinch roller and guides if the rust never left the mylar?
As I said, that is the tape backing or binding.

Think of it this way. We use an MRL to align tape machines. An MRL is magnetized tape with calibrated test tones set at a certain fluxivity.

How many guys do you know that use a new MRL everytime they align their machine? I don't know any. They use those 2 minute tones over and over and over for years and years. If the MRL was losing it's fluxivity after every use, you wouldn't be able to align your machine at all.

You can't just wipe the electrons off tape - try it on one of your fridge magnets, hell use an SOS pad, see where it gets you.

Now, this isn't to say that tape doesn't go bad. But 99% of the time it is because of the tape machine or user error. A tape machine that is poorly serviced can stretch tape, eat tape, cause terrible phase, and a plethora of other issues. But tape itself ususally isn't the issue.

Even tape that is shedding it's binding due to improper storage can be baked and re-used up to a year without needing a re-bake. Now if the tape has gotten so bad where you can see through it - all bets are off
Old 23rd October 2008
  #189
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Now if the tape has gotten so bad where you can see through it - all bets are off
Ah, the ol' Fleetwood Mac Rumors fiasco....
Old 24th October 2008
  #190
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Ah, the ol' Fleetwood Mac Rumors fiasco....
Well everythng is relative. The FM 'fiasco' includes what the engineers estimated to be 3000 hours on ONE real of tape. If only more people worked that hard.........

And that album doesn't sound too bad to me.......heh
Old 24th October 2008
  #191
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep Dude View Post
Accuracy: You are freewheeling the tape machine and the DAW so they are not sync'd. This process relies on the hope that the tape machine's motor is steady enough over time that once you figure out that latency between the record and repro head, it will stay steady. It does. Using my Ampex MM1200 I recorded a percussion track for 3 minutes simultaneously direct to the DAW and also through the tape machine. After aligning the tracks and observing the waveforms over the 3 minute period, the two lined up to within 1 sample.
A tape machine should be very accurate on speed when the machine synchronizer is resolved to BB that your DAW is resolved with.
Old 25th October 2008
  #192
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Well everythng is relative. The FM 'fiasco' includes what the engineers estimated to be 3000 hours on ONE real of tape. If only more people worked that hard.........

And that album doesn't sound too bad to me.......heh
Yeah it sounds pretty good. In fact that worn tape 'sound' (muted highs) is part of that production....even if unintentional, I can't imagine that album with an open top end tutt
Old 26th October 2008
  #193
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Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
A tape machine should be very accurate on speed when the machine synchronizer is resolved to BB that your DAW is resolved with.
Actually in my test there was no black burst or sync of any kind. The MM1200 was just freewheeling.
Old 1st November 2008
  #194
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desotoslo's Avatar
 

Hi,

My post may be unrelated to what came before in this thread, but I just want to convey an experience I had with hearing a taped recording the other day.

An older composer played a bunch of his work that was originally recorded to tape, on a CD, through a pair of very decent monitors of which I am used to hearing a lot of straight-to-digital stuff.

I have often found myself cringing at the harsh sound coming from these monitors when the source is DDD. When this fellow (he was actually the music supervisor at CBS from 1977-1991) played a sampler of some of his tunes that were originally recorded to tape,

the sound was rich, smooth, real-sounding. Hearing digital stuff, it sounds real as well, but when compared to tape, it seems like an imitation of the source and not a real rendering. It was a pleasure to hear it. Violins, flutes, were smooth and sonorous, not harsh at all... and the volume was way up! Not to mention, the converters on the CD player were pretty standard no-name things.

Anyway, this has been said before a zillion times, but the impression was just so impressive(!) that I had to write about it here.

ps: I'm pretty much a digital baby... most of my listening done on CDs in my lifetime.
Old 1st March 2009
  #195
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HonkyTonk's Avatar
 

tape stored on plastic spool .....!?!

I have been offered some used tapes stored on plastic spools ( not metall spool).
I tested one of the tapes on my a800 but the tape very soon got out of position and "fell" down to the chassis of the studer - as I expected. Have never seen tape stored on plastic spools. Seems like if I had a "plate" under the plastic tape spool this could work? Kind of plate where the plastic spool could rest on ......
Anybody who has some experience about this?
Thanks
Honky
Old 13th May 2009
  #196
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HookedOnHardware's Avatar
 

Bump

Anybody using this system? It looks fascinating.
Old 13th May 2009
  #197
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BradM's Avatar
I use my own version of it that cost me nothing. I probably posted earlier in the thread, but I'm too lazy to check. Check out the two videos on my youtube site for the poor-man's version of something similar.

Brad
Old 13th May 2009
  #198
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ripper's Avatar
 

hey, if it come in a 500 series format, i'm in.
Old 13th May 2009
  #199
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HookedOnHardware's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I use my own version of it that cost me nothing. I probably posted earlier in the thread, but I'm too lazy to check. Check out the two videos on my youtube site for the poor-man's version of something similar.

Brad
I did see it a while back (the video). However, I don't think it's the same.

This CLASP thing looks awesome!
Old 14th May 2009
  #200
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Gravity8058's Avatar
 

We recently our 827 and have a LOT of tape for sale:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...d-chicago.html


Old 15th May 2009
  #201
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HookedOnHardware's Avatar
 

So really.... There is no one out there who has used or owns this Clasp thing?
Old 24th August 2009
  #202
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Esrb99's Avatar
 

bump: using voxengo atm, (Brad, thanks! really awesome!) but this is just too cool.
Old 24th August 2009
  #203
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GYang's Avatar
Anyone compared CLASP to Anamod?
Old 24th August 2009
  #204
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Esrb99's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Anyone compared CLASP to Anamod?
i've used neither, but at approx. 3k for a useable 24 trk tape machine, 2k for a good amount of tape, and 7k for the CLASP, you supposedly get real tape with daw on 24 channels, as opposed to 36k for 24 channels of anamod. one can argue that for the clasp you still have to buy tape and upkeep o n the tapedeck, but I think the overall price difference alone makes it worth it. (24k saved is alot of extra tape and/or spare parts, etc...)
Old 24th August 2009
  #205
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How does zero dollars sound

Getting the idea from Brad McGowan above, I asked the developer of my daw to expand the amount of sample rate input correction. That is all I needed and then I am able to use my tape machine as a plugin on the DAW. When I track a whole band I don't use this, but when I am doing overdubs it really saves time.

Cost = $0.00

The clasp is a cool concept though, just hard for me to justify that price tag when I can do a similar thing for $0.00
Old 25th August 2009
  #206
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie View Post

The clasp is a cool concept though, just hard for me to justify that price tag when I can do a similar thing for $0.00
Similar, but less comfortable and efficient.
Probably the best way is to forget tape at all (if possible) hehheh
Old 26th August 2009
  #207
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock View Post
The best way to get tape sound is to buy a tape machine and track and/or mix to it. It will sound like tape deck and give you tape sound because it is what it is.

Ie. --A piano is a piano and a digital piano is a digital piano. etc.etc.etc.
As I don't like to mess with tape I didn't do many comparisons, but what I remember is that lot of magic is killed in double conversion process. I really think so and this is reason why I don't record analogue synths to DAW (I connect them straight to analogue mixer). Same reason why I believe that OTB processing with ITB mixing sucks in general (although may improve many things over fully ITB sessions).
Idea that taped track goes to digital for editing and processing is not impressive to me, although it looks cool at the first sight.
People are talking about glorious tape recorders and strive to have high-def or 'as analogue as possible' feel and sound just to kill 50-90% of achieved quality with conversion process (much more with digital processing).
Concept is again kind of 'sampled audio quality', well in most likely better quality and illusion that project is 'more analogue' than ususal.
It is clear that top profis might need it (and will be happy to pay miserable 7 k) to show PRO-EDGE over bedroom project studios.

My point in discussion is not price, as I would not use it even free of charge
Old 26th August 2009
  #208
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
As I don't like to mess with tape I didn't do many comparisons, but what I remember is that lot of magic is killed in double conversion process. I really think so and this is reason why I don't record analogue synths to DAW (I connect them straight to analogue mixer). Same reason why I believe that OTB processing with ITB mixing sucks in general (although may improve many things over fully ITB sessions).
Idea that taped track goes to digital for editing and processing is not impressive to me, although it looks cool at the first sight.
People are talking about glorious tape recorders and strive to have high-def or 'as analogue as possible' feel and sound just to kill 50-90% of achieved quality with conversion process (much more with digital processing).
Concept is again kind of 'sampled audio quality', well in most likely better quality and illusion that project is 'more analogue' than ususal.
It is clear that top profis might need it (and will be happy to pay miserable 7 k) to show PRO-EDGE over bedroom project studios.

My point in discussion is not price, as I would not use it even free of charge

I see where you're coming from but to negate the difference with conversion is something that doesn't compute with me.

Maybe its my ADDA (Behringer ADA8000s with RME HDSP 9652 master) but I hear the difference that tape makes with my client's productions. I record digital and then dump the multi tracks to my Tascam 38 (15 ips w/ Ampex 456). It sounds rounder and a nice dose of retro if you smack the tape right. I usually slap my pres between the DA and the deck, then back into the lineamps on the ADA8000. It sounds really sweet on everything thus far. I don't dump vocals to tape though.

As far as the CLASP system, I don't see the 7000 dollar, convenience pro aspect of any of it. This system is right up there with the fax guy from Office space. Its really worth 7000 bucks for a machine to rewind your deck for you?? Reaper must really kick PT HDs ass if you can auto calculate latency, plus have the option of manual offset. Once you calculate the latency or the offset, its always the same. It only changes deck to deck and service date to service date.

Sounds like kick ass ville over here and I'm getting clients because of it.

Peace
Illumination
Old 17th March 2013
  #209
Here for the gear
 

How to clean 4 tracks??

Hiyo

I got a score on a Tascam Porta One in Albuquerque. Sounds so gooooood!! Natural and live.

There is crackling in the input heads, faders, and headphone output. I have Isopropyl Alchohol and Electronic Cleaner/Lubricant from Radio Shack.

Does anyone have a good method to cleaning out a four track? Gain pots and faders? Thanx!!
Old 17th March 2013
  #210
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Whah?

Dunno if you're joking, but if not, post in the geekslutz forum or the low end theory forum.
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