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Getting Drums In Time Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 17th February 2003
  #31
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5down1up's Avatar
 

heh heh heh

then the music stores would be empty

heh heh heh
Old 17th February 2003
  #32
It's always going to be a difficult decision.
Much of the most interesting and important music of the last 20 years has been shambolic in performance. Would you spend weeks editing the drums on a Velvet Underground session?
The other extreme would be Mutt Lange who reputedly edits every other note. I'm not keen on Shania but I guess he's made some good sounding records in the past.
It's understandable that producers and engineers want the music to sound as good as possible, the question is, where do you draw the line?.
Old 17th February 2003
  #33
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5down1up's Avatar
 

i guess the " real talented " people know all the tools and decide from time to time and situation to situation which tools they are gonna pick . it really depends on the situation .
its a real tough decission to change your " how am i usually gonna do it " attitude . but youll learn the most from that point of view . otherwise you might be lost in doing mistake and mistake forever .

if i would sit in that big , all possibiltys given , studio , trying to record the new ac/dc record . it would probably end up sounding like massive attack , with all the fx boxes switched on , distorted drums , reverse guitars andandand

what do you think . it is a clever trick from the producers to keep it as it is " GENIOUS " or is it maybe just " LAZYNESS " . sometimes different roads lead to the same destination .

heh heh heh

its a long way to the top , if you wanna rock´n roll .
Old 17th February 2003
  #34
"**** letting these musicians think they can sound better than their talents allow for"

Ahhhhh!

Here is the crux of the matter! This statement is totally at odds with my niche within the recording & music industry's.

At my studio, whenever its a job I have accepted as producer, (that's 99% of my job description when I am working) I try to make sure it sounds as good as it can whatever the means. (tuning, sound replacer / drum fixes, musician replacement as a last resort... etc)

I try to see the bands vision and ENHANCE it.

To use an analogy I feel more like a painter than a photographer.

I dont have a "Dude, YOU played it" attitude, mistakes get fixed, glossed over, finessed, repaired.

I am more making music "product" less about capturing "events".

If my product has great performances on it - ALL THE BETTER! I am no stranger to wild & live recording. I welcome it!

A lot of what I do is make bands sound better than they were at the time of recording.

They can grow! Heck with a record deal, no day jobs, touring and their own practice room 24/7 they DO get a hell of a lot tighter!

I make recordings that turn the folks on in:

A&R Boardrooms
Radio
Management companies
Press
PR

I am a 'first record', "demo / master" specialist.

It's not for me to record mistakes and leave em, I attempt to carry them forward onto the first rung on the music biz ladder, and often onto the radio via a recording. That's my main objective / mission statement.
Old 17th February 2003
  #35
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

well we come from opposite approaches then jules. i make them play it right. i dont just leave a glaring mistake in but i refuse to edit drums like originally posted in the thread.... to me that is just ridiculous. i will get another drummer first. its not that i CANT do that, i just refuse to. and i think its a legitimate refusal. like this band i have in right now, i am telling them that one of their tracks is unusable in its current incarnation because it drags too much. thats a re-record... im having them come back in and do it again.... fortunately with a new drummer [who actaully LIKES to play to a click track].

and im not going to get AC/DC in the studio and make them sound like massive attack just as much as i wouldnt make massive attack sound like AC/DC.

i enhance what they sound like, not perfect what they sound like.
Old 17th February 2003
  #36
It's ALL good!

Old 17th February 2003
  #37
Gear Addict
 
Bernd G's Avatar
 

drummers and drumsounds

Been doing all of the above. I just spent 15 hours cutting together loops from a bad drummer recorded in an awesome space. One of the big problems is that you are loosing out on the ambient sound if the drums were recorded in a nice space and cut up into little pieces (ie. overhead sounds that sound terribly choppy if cut up). I don't mind perfect drums, but I do mind "the same old drum replacement sound" on every mix. I think one of the tricks is to get a lot of material from the drummer (straight measures, fills etc.) with a click track (even if they cannot play to one) for the post-production. But most of all, like Clint Eastwood in "Firefox" (yeah, I know I am old) "you must think like a drummer" (slightly adapted) when you put things back together with looped measures. Unless my drumtrack is perfect - the rest is usually temporal **** too, unfortunately, because all of the other cats were playing to a click as well. Getting a great studio drummer is wonderful, but they change the actual sound of the band - it will be a bad awakening in the live concerts....

Old 17th February 2003
  #38
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i make them play it right. i dont just leave a glaring mistake in but i refuse to edit drums like originally posted in the thread.... to me that is just ridiculous. i will get another drummer first. its not that i CANT do that, i just refuse to. and i think its a legitimate refusal. (snip)
...i enhance what they sound like, not perfect what they sound like.
I very much like this approach, in theory. And I would never spend the amount of time (the thread starter stated) editing tracks... I'll always attempt to get better takes by replaying them. I can generally 'tighten up' good to average basic tracks in about half an hour. Complete **** tracks take an hour or two, max. It is quicker to retrack than edit, but sometimes it ain't gonna get any better.

(And BTW;
Alpha, I would guess from your stated M.O., that you work primarily (or only) with bands or artists that you like, and want to work with. Jules appears to take on projects that he thinks have some potential marketabillity. Both of you appear to be more of 'hands on producing types', rather than straight engineering in a primarily 'by the hour', open to the public studio... These distinctions weigh heavily and very much determine your ability to work the way you do...
Thats great.)

Art or Commerce:

However, most of the projects I (and I would guess, lots of the folks here) work on, I am not (technically) producing; Only engineering. By the hour or day. For pay. I can and do make suggestions, but in the end, it is the clients' call. Often times the ****ty drummer is the guy paying the bill. I think this is an important distinction. I like to get paid. I'm not currently in a position to run clients off, because I think they suck and I don't want to work with them. So, I have to (what we like to refer to around here as) 'Make chicken salad out of chicken ****' from time to time... You know, keep the lights on, etc...

Most of the projects I work on have competent players to record, but some do not. I will do whatever I can do to make them all happy with the results, using whatever tools I have at my disposal, because this is what I am hired to do. If I 'enhance' what they do, great. I've done my job. If I have to perfect, or even 'fabricate' what they want but cannot play, I'm still doing what they're paying for and perhaps more importantly, (these PT days) what they expect for their money. I may not personally like Beat Detective or Autotune or Soundreplacer, but the client determines whether it is needed or used. To summarize my M.O.: I will not allow a great band to walk away with a ****ty recording, but a ****ty band may leave with something that sounds much better than they actually are...

That is my 'reality', and I'm okay with it. YMMV

Sincerely,
Old 17th February 2003
  #39
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Henchman's Avatar
Damn. It never takes me more than an hour to edit a drumtrack on the Fairlight.
Old 17th February 2003
  #40
Quote:
Originally posted by blackcatdigi

. To summarize my M.O.: I will not allow a great band to walk away with a ****ty recording, but a ****ty band may leave with something that sounds much better than they actually are...
Well put.yuktyy
Old 17th February 2003
  #41
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kosi's Avatar
What counts for me, is the quality, of what I am doing while I work,
and when I sit there and edit for xx hours on a drumtrack, this is a bad work-quality, that I don't want to do.
No band in the world could pay the money, that I sit, instead in front of my mixboard or my instruments, in front of my computer in a quite unnatural manner and move a mouse up and down. For what ? That a 21 year old guy bad drummer can run around with a (doubtful) good song and make him "the superdick" ?

If cutting and editing is a way of expressing your artificial means, then fine, but to sit down for someone and get his faults corrected ? No and never.
fuuck

He should do the editing by himself, as punishment !heh heh

cheers, kosi
Old 17th February 2003
  #42
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kosi's Avatar
a better name for this thread would have been:

Slave to the rhythm


dfegad grggt
Old 17th February 2003
  #43
Gear Guru
 

The pendulum will swing (NPI) back the other way. It always does. I see signs of it already:

software like Beat Detective allows you create a grid that is not "square" but based on a groove that you capture from a live performance. Every MIDI sequencer has dozens of "groove" and "swing" options in the quantizing menu.

the keyboard and DJ mags have articles with tips on micro-tempo shifts and grid displacements. Three pages that tell you how to make your drum machine sound like a human being. That fact that they think that is desirable is a good sign, don't you think?? Next thing you know they will be actually _hiring a human drummer. (Nah)


Lately I have heard regular people complaining about the soullessness of over edited music like Vanessa Carlton and Shania Twain (not just the musicians and engineers on these forums).

More and more rap groups are doing shows with live bass and drums and guitars. Even when the record is made with loops, having a band on stage is a sign that you are in the Big Time.

In Montreal. I saw some bands doing Techno with live bass and drums!

When editing my own playing I will fix a draggy note here and there or comp something that grooves harder from another take, but no gridding. I hate the way it sounds and I have an ego thing about it too. Of course I am a very good drummer (if I say so myself) with 20 years experience playing rock, jazz and latin, and countless hours in the studio.

When editing a client's work, however, it's whatever they want. I get paid by the hour, after all. I have a very high threshold of boredom, especially when I need money.
Old 19th February 2003
  #44
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Drumsound's Avatar
I make bands sound better than they are by making them play things better than they think they can. I coax performances out of people. I push or pull them. I encourage them or challenge them. Then I do my "studio magic" and overdub, mix and add effect etc. I've made a lot of bands sound better than when they came in the door, all without a hard-disk recorder.
Old 19th February 2003
  #45
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisso
I
The other extreme would be Mutt Lange who reputedly edits every other note.-snip- I guess he's made some good sounding records in the past.
No, just one! Huge sellers yes, good...no
Old 19th February 2003
  #46
Quote:
Originally posted by Drumsound
I make bands sound better than they are by making them play things better than they think they can. I coax performances out of people.
I agree with you. That's what production is all about, isn't it?
Just out of interest, which is the 'one' Mutt Lange production that you like?
Old 19th February 2003
  #47
gotta b AC/DC!

dingk! didleank! didleank! - didle da be da!
Old 19th February 2003
  #48
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5down1up's Avatar
 

dingk! didleank! didleank! - didle da be da!

<--- BACK IN BLACK ???


have i won a price ... hrhrhr heh
Old 19th February 2003
  #49
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
gotta b AC/DC!
I think you're probably right.
Didn't he do Def Leppard?

None if this stuff is my cup of tea, I hasten to add.
I worked with an awesome guitarist once - well known, but I wont name him here.
One day he did a Lange session.
He said they were dropping in note by note.
Mutt had him play the guitar part, then they went back and ended up redoing every single note until it was 100% perfect.
He said at the same time some guys were landscaping Mutt's garden and he kept running out of the studio to curse them for not getting the trees perfectly lined up etc...
Sounded like a case of compulsive obsessive syndrome to me.
Old 20th February 2003
  #50
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Drumsound's Avatar
Everybody's right. Back in Black is all I can stand from Mr. Lange. I once got ripped pretty hard for comments about him on RAP, but I don't care. I think he's plague on music and recording!
Old 20th February 2003
  #51
Not that he's a 'plague etc...' but what was the deal with Jeff Lynne?
All those Tom Petty tracks and Travelling Wilbury's, the drums always sounded like a machine.
A Lynne Drum even.
Old 20th February 2003
  #52
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 

Hmmm.....I will often edit drums "for effect". Will SOMETIMES edit a drum performance to tighten up a bar or two, or replay a fill and fly it in (now THAT'S cheatin) but 9 times out of ten I'll be able to coax a better performance by :
1.suggest (with tact) a different part/approach.
2. play as an example (i'm a drummer and only hav done this with younger ,green players)
3.suggest they get it tighter in the practice room, tape themselves, practice with a clik,at least by themselves.

Since our little place is run by drummers, and we know drummers, we're pretty lucky to not have to deal with incompetance.

there are a couple of really killing young bands that are working on demo/cd's that have been obviously held back by the drummer. I'ts a bit of a drag seeing that replacing the player would be the obvious call, but doing so can upset the "band vibe" . My inclination is to boot the kid and hire a ringer and get it DONE, but I really like to go the extra mile with the kid to keep the experience positive. sometimes it's not all about the music...(I'd still like to wipe all his traks and have 'em replayed)
doing that kinda **** feels really "big label greasy" to me.
If it was my money , or a spec deal with our backing.......he's gone.(there I go getting greasy)
that being said, I think in ten years the over Sound Replaced , Beat detectived, performances will stand out like the Linndrum traks or D50 sythybelly bull**** of the 80's....
Human is good, imperfection....fine. ****ty Players? tutt go home and practice.
Old 21st February 2003
  #53
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Since I'm using 2" the abilty to edit drums by the bar is out the window. If that kind of thing needs to be done I either rent a DAW or pass on the gig. I'm not against taking two or three takes of a song and pasting the 1st chorus from take 2 and the bridge from take 1 into take 3 if needed. And yes, I'll use a razor blade for that. I could transfer the whole thing into the DAW and send it back to tape but that's no fun, takes longer and sounds worse.

I'm also not a click ****. If the band can do it and likes cutting to a click I'm all for it, but if they get a little bit away from it I'm not going to flip out and trash a take. My rule of thumb is that anything that's 90% good with a minor mistake like hitting the snare off center or catching the rim of a tom on a 16th note fill is ok. Anything really obviously bad gets redone or pasted in from another take.

I'm also not against telling a drummer why they suck and helping them try to work on those areas. If anything that covers my ass later. Like if the drummer is bashing the cymbals or hat and hitting the snare like a pussy the band can't blame me for not being able to bring the hat down and snare up because I did point it out.
Old 21st February 2003
  #54
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisso
Not that he's a 'plague etc...' but what was the deal with Jeff Lynne?
All those Tom Petty tracks and Travelling Wilbury's, the drums always sounded like a machine.
A Lynne Drum even.
Jeff Lynne is also a plague!
Old 21st February 2003
  #55
Quote:
Originally posted by Drumsound
Jeff Lynne is also a plague!
LOLheh
Old 21st February 2003
  #56
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I'm not against taking two or three takes of a song and pasting the 1st chorus from take 2 and the bridge from take 1 into take 3 if needed.
If the band can do it and likes cutting to a click I'm all for it, but if they get a little bit away from it I'm not going to flip out and trash a take. My rule of thumb is that anything that's 90% good with a minor mistake like hitting the snare off center or catching the rim of a tom on a 16th note fill is ok. Anything really obviously bad gets redone or pasted in from another take.
I like that. That's the way most of the really good producers I've worked with do things.
I'm usually the one pushing for a retake and if you say "I hate the bit where I clicked the side of the tom by mistake" they always reply "That's the best bit".
Maybe it's because those bits say 'drummer' and not 'machine'.
Old 21st February 2003
  #57
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e-cue's Avatar
 

So far everyone seems to have touched on "fixing" out of time performances, but what about tempo changes after the song has been recorded? VSOing is one option (in some cases) if you don't mind the tuning of your track going to all hell, are there any tips or techniques that help you speed up or slow down pre-recorded material? (so far Beat Detective and light use of serato are my only hope).

Oh yeah, I saw a "Russian Dragon" unit used for under $50 the other month. Apparently, these things help tell you how out of time your drums are.
Old 21st February 2003
  #58
I saw a "Russian Dragon" unit used for under $50 the other month. Apparently, these things help tell you how out of time your drums are."

I have one!

They are V handy for digital transfers where MTC sync is all you got...

(you reference a click from each format nd watch the display)

You remind me to get mine out of mothballs!

I admit to being confused often on tracking days which direction the drummer is going in reference to a click - slower or faster... This unit can help.

Old 21st February 2003
  #59
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 

Oh yeah, I saw a "Russian Dragon" unit used for under $50 the other month. Apparently, these things help tell you how out of time your drums are. [/B][/QUOTE]

I had one years ago, they came out with a baby Russian Dragon that I used for a while when I was in the practice room regularly.
The larger unit was used as a visual reference for tightening up timing....moreso for use with MIDI timing problems(slow triggering) and to a lesser extent for the producer to check a live drummer to the clik ...visually.

Being an F 16 owner I doubt you have the slow triggering to worry about.

One little gadget that I forgot to mention that has been wonderful and is a great alternative for the click is called the "Beat Bug"

It's a little box that recieves a trigger from your snare drum (or kik) and measures the time between hits. so, if the tempo is 100 bpm and the player is hitting backbeats 2+4, the LED read out will dsplay the number 50. 55 would be 110 bpm etc.
I've used one live and in the studio for ten years and it has helped to nail down tempos big time. It's kinda like bio feed back. Sometimes just thinking the tempo up a couple of cliks will goose the readout up....really cool if say the chorus feels better up a couple cliks but the verse needs to come back. GREAT for guys that haven't played with a clik before as a quick reference. Indespensible for the live gig to kill arguments over tempos (It was fast , it was slow blah blah)
I don't think the Beatbug is available anymore, but looks as if this guy has copped the design and called it the "GrooveGuide" if it works the same it's a worthwile little widget for every studio/drummer/producer....
http://home.att.net/~drums01/z.html
Old 21st February 2003
  #60
Craig,
Great tip thanks.
I have to question it's ability to work however. How does it handle incidental skipped notes? I very rarely just hit on 2 & 4.
Anyway, at that price I might just get one for practice purposes.
Thx.
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