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MCI JH110 vs. Ampex AG440 Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 27th February 2005
  #1
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vikingdude's Avatar
 

MCI JH110 vs. Ampex AG440

How would you describe the difference in sound between an MCI JH110 and an Ampex AG440 both being 1/4" 2 track. Are the differences subtle or are you able to clearly distinguish the two?
Old 4th April 2013
  #2
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skybluerental's Avatar
 

i am interested in this as well.......

any opinions?
Old 4th April 2013
  #3
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AwTAC's Avatar
 

There are MCI fans out there and Im not really one of them and not going to speak for them but you can absolutely find people, like myself, who look at a 440-B as the greatest sounding 2 track deck to mix to. I have not really found that sentiment from people in the MCI camp, they are out there perhaps, but Ive never met any.

First off, you gotta be a huge fan of 1/4" to get into a 440. Lots of people will dismiss them for the reasons I'll get into, but they are usually 1/2" fans.

440 is a great deck to RECORD on. Not such a great day to play back from.

The transport is not so much terrible, but its the most unsophisticated thing in the universe if you sit it next to any studer.

The whole deck is really just pretty raw and unrefined. I remember when I very very first got one, on the recommendation of a friend, I couldnt believe anyone would be excited about a tape machine like that. And then I started to record on it.

the electronics are discrete and very simple. The 440 has just the rawest sound. I hate using the word, but there is nothing else to describe the machine: punch. Its a bombastic sounding machine free of refinement to make it smooth or polite.

They are easy enough to fix and keep going but they sound really amazing. The playback circuit leaves alot to be desired, I would personally change the output transformer if you plan to play back from it, the transport is seriously the thing that was designed by the guys at the beginning of 2001.

There are certainly cons with a 440, but the pros are amazing, the machine just sounds ridiculously good. Dont get a C, you want a B.

You also should be real careful buying a used one as 440's in real nice shape are not so easy to come across.
Old 4th April 2013
  #4
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It's gonna depend more on the condition of the particular machine. A 440 is a brute-force machine, all discrete, 1967 design. I believe early MCI electronics were essentially Ampex clones. More US records were probably done on Ampex 440s than any other tape machine. They were manufactured from around '67 to the early '80s.
Old 5th April 2013
  #5
Lives for gear
I have a 2 track 1/4 inch Ampex 440 and it is absolutely phenomenal sounding. I put it together from two half track machines. Both machines were not in the greatest shape cosmetically but the electronics were fine (which is the main thing). There was rust and grime on the surface of boh machines. I used the machine that was in better shape and converted it to a 2 track machine. The rust came off easily with a citrus based cleaning product and has never returned. I bought a used 2 track head block on ebay and sent it to Mr French to polish. Upon advice I purchased transformers for the electronics modules. They snapped on quickly. The headblock can be attached and removed within 1 minute as can the electronics modules. It is as easy as working with lego. I had a DC Servo motor installed so it can operate at 30 ips and 15 ips. The machine is rock solid and is built like a tank. It is truly amazing but the playback is very basic. I love the sound of it and it looks beautiful.

I have been looking for a 2 track half inch headblock for it. If anyone has one please send me a message.
Old 5th April 2013
  #6
Lives for gear
Hi,

I had a MCI JH-110, not the greatest machine in the world
Alot of molex cleaning etc.
I ended up using it for it's 30ips speed,
pre-delay for my EMT plate...

But the AG440 would be quite good, you might have to tweak the transport abit (it's an Ampex!) and RTZ makes
a mastering grade/audiophile playback card...
If I was going back to Ampex machines (only Studers here)
I'd get a pair of AG440's!
They sound amazing...

Best,
Tom
Old 5th April 2013
  #7
Lives for gear
Tom where can I get RTZ mastering grade/audiophile playback cards from?
Old 5th April 2013
  #8
Gear Addict
 
AwTAC's Avatar
 

to my best knowledge the rtz cards are not made anymore. I have used them in my 440 and they are real cool however the real brawn of the 400 is to be found with the stock electronics.
Old 10th April 2013
  #9
Lives for gear
Yeah I enquired with RTZ and they stopped making them, which is a bummer. Perhaps I will try to get a 1/2 inch stereo headblock for it. The headblocks can be changed over within minutes as can the 1/4 to 1/2 inch tape adjustment. The machines are great that way.
Old 29th December 2015
  #10
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwTAC View Post
There are MCI fans out there and Im not really one of them and not going to speak for them but you can absolutely find people, like myself, who look at a 440-B as the greatest sounding 2 track deck to mix to. I have not really found that sentiment from people in the MCI camp, they are out there perhaps, but Ive never met any.

First off, you gotta be a huge fan of 1/4" to get into a 440. Lots of people will dismiss them for the reasons I'll get into, but they are usually 1/2" fans.

440 is a great deck to RECORD on. Not such a great day to play back from.

The transport is not so much terrible, but its the most unsophisticated thing in the universe if you sit it next to any studer.

The whole deck is really just pretty raw and unrefined. I remember when I very very first got one, on the recommendation of a friend, I couldnt believe anyone would be excited about a tape machine like that. And then I started to record on it.

the electronics are discrete and very simple. The 440 has just the rawest sound. I hate using the word, but there is nothing else to describe the machine: punch. Its a bombastic sounding machine free of refinement to make it smooth or polite.

They are easy enough to fix and keep going but they sound really amazing. The playback circuit leaves alot to be desired, I would personally change the output transformer if you plan to play back from it, the transport is seriously the thing that was designed by the guys at the beginning of 2001.

There are certainly cons with a 440, but the pros are amazing, the machine just sounds ridiculously good. Dont get a C, you want a B.

You also should be real careful buying a used one as 440's in real nice shape are not so easy to come across.


If I may give this thread a nudge, It would be great to hear some impressions on a MCI 1 inch 8 in comparison to, an Ampex 440 1 inch 8. (not sure if the Ampex 1 inch 8's were available in C & B versions?)

It seems if one was considering a dive into 1 inch 2 land, Having the Mara MCI is an attractive option from somewhat of an overall condition / refurb point of view. Any Ampex one can find would certainly need significant attention. That, and they're not so easy to find to begin with. From what I hear, they're sound could be considered more engaging to say the least however.
Old 29th December 2015
  #11
Gear Maniac
I have an Ampex 1" 8 track and have previously owned a 1/2" MCI 4 track.

The previous statements about the Ampex transport being a bit simple and raw are accurate, but it's a cooler sounding unit. It can be a trade off. I think the MCI needed less looking after when I had it. But when the Ampex is working properly, it's a special machine. That said, it's time to get it looked over again...
Old 29th December 2015
  #12
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by worksinframes View Post
I have an Ampex 1" 8 track and have previously owned a 1/2" MCI 4 track.

The previous statements about the Ampex transport being a bit simple and raw are accurate, but it's a cooler sounding unit. It can be a trade off. I think the MCI needed less looking after when I had it. But when the Ampex is working properly, it's a special machine. That said, it's time to get it looked over again...
Thanks for the thoughts.
That's what seems to be the general consensus re; the Ampex.
If you get a chance, it world good to hear what your thoughts are in so far as what is the main source, generally, of the need for the Ampex to be given consistent attention.
Transport?,or?
Old 29th December 2015
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
Thanks for the thoughts.
That's what seems to be the general consensus re; the Ampex.
If you get a chance, it world good to hear what your thoughts are in so far as what is the main source, generally, of the need for the Ampex to be given consistent attention.
Transport?,or?
I have a 440C and used to have a 440B 8-track and neither have seemed especially maintenance-heavy to me. I did have to have my transport card re-worked on the C, so maybe transport is what people are thinking.
Old 29th December 2015
  #14
Gear Maniac
Mine was rock solid until I moved it to a new studio. I need to have it looked over now that it's here. It's still pretty good but not as smooth as it was before the move. It's probably something small.

Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's the machine that has the issue or the tape stock. Sometimes new tape can be iffy. I'll put a reel on and nothing will want to align and I think the machine must have an issue. Then I throw on an old reel of 456 and it all lines right up.

I do think that once the machines are teched, they do stay solid and reliable for a long time. Keep it well oiled and it will treat you well, even the transport.
Old 31st December 2015
  #15
I owned a 2" 16 mci (exact same sound as 1" 8), as well as a 2" 24 of later mfgr.,. There was NO comparison. There is not a 24 track 2" in existence that sounds like the 2" 16. I believe it had always been known by nearly everybody in the business that the 24 track happenned due to the convienience of more channels being wanted more than the sound. Which is the main reason the large majority of stuff went digital... and when they DO (sooner or later) get to the point they can mimic tape properly with plugins,....all the tape machines will probabaly be in the trash the next day.
Back in the day,..I was told by a lot of guys that the electronic cards were nearly the same with the early mci's and ampex's.. I also know that there are many MCI's out there that had the output transformers bypassed by their techs. Mine still had them in it.
1/2" masters were not as common as people would like you to believe. In fact,.. I remember in 1988 or 89,..I knew an engineer who had mastered onto 1/2" tape for a pop star in mexico,.. And we were in the studio when he got the call from mexico asking him to run it again...this time on 1/4"...because there was not a 1/2" 2 track in the whole country.
And if you don't believe that...have a look at the pic (if they still have the same pic) on the front of the old original "Who's next" CD,.... (they found the master in the lunchroom of mca....or so the rumor was...after looking for years)... The picture of the master is right on there. 1/4" at 15 ips.
Technically, I believe the model #110 actually referred to the original transport,...which was very easy on tape. I think I remember the tech telling me that the JH16 had the 110 transport in it, which was why I had both a 110 manual and a Jh16 manual for just one machine.
I don't recall thinking the difference in sound between the different machines back then was much of a big deal...it was like..probably less of a difference that you would get using different kinds of tape. It seemed like MCI's were by far the most common in hollywood, with a lot of studers and otari's in there also. For my personal studio, I was "looking" for an MCI to match my 2, 2" machines (this was NOT a commercial studio, mind you),..and I already had (and still have) an old studer/revox A500..or is it A700???. I asked the advice of our tech., Pat Schneider,..as to whether to get the ampex,..or an MCI... I wanted to have something "big" sitting next to the 24" machines. Don't ask me why. (probably because I was young and stupid). Pat told me that there was nothing in existence that was going to sound better than the studer/revox.... he said the only thing that could make the studer better was direct ins and outs,...and mine already had those. His opinion was highly valued. He did say that if you needed a 1/2" 30 ips deck for show...he understood, but in my case..I didn't. He was the best tech in the western US and everybody knew it. There were a couple other really good techs in Hollywood,..but he was the best. I think the next best was a guy named Steve Saddler (if I remember the name right) and he was in Nashville.

As a side note,...1/2" 2 tracks, I believe are not expensive nowadays. There was a guy here (in utah) trying to sell an otari and I think it was like $300. He called me and I could have gotten it for $100... but said I didn't want it...period.
I suspect if it was a 1/4 inch he would have sold it easy for much more money.
Old 2nd January 2016
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Owned them all.

MCI JH-110s came in three revisions Rev A, B and C.
Each is based on the JH-100 transport which is also the same basic transport as most MCI multitrack machines.
However, there were refinements along the way.
The REV A had the INPUT TRANSFORMERS on all models and some early ones had OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS.
Early REV A had the MCI 2003 octal opamps and had +/- 32V DC audio rails.
Later REV A had 5534 DIP opamps and run at +/- 18V DC.
Obviously, the transports give a specific sound as does +/- 32V versus +/- 18V audio rails.
The JH-110 is great sounding platform and although the transport was considered "modern" in the '70s they do suffer from problems due to the use of Molex connectors.
Like all MCI equipment, they can require a lot of attention to keep them operating properly.
Most parts are obtainable, but some parts like the REPRO OPAMP are in very short supply.

The AG-440 came in three regions as well.
There is the AG-440, the AG-440B and the AG-440C.
All use the same basic transport, but it's design was upgraded and updated over the years.
The AG-440 and AG-440B mostly had an AC Hysteresis CAPSTAN MOTOR and the AG-440C had the DC SERVO CAPSTAN MOTOR.
The DC SERVO CAPSTAN MOTOR KIT can be adapted to both the AG-440 and AG-440B.
All three revisions have AC REEL MOTORS.
Only the DC SERVO CAPSTAN equipped machines can run at 30 IPS (they run at all speeds.)
The AC CAPSTAN MOTOR AG-440s are either 3.75 and 7.5 IPS or 7.5 and 15 IPS.
The transport on all AG-440s are fairly basic and are built like tanks.
They are approaching 50 years of age and most still work with only minimal service.
The only real issue is that the transports are not a constant tension transport.
This means that the speed varies slightly at the beginning and end of the reel compared to the middle.
This is generally never and issue unless you are splicing takes from the beginning or end of a reel into the middle of the reel.

The AG-440 electronics are discreet 39V single rail.
They have transformers on the INPUT and OUTPUT.
These are VERY solid running machines and once set up they require only minimal attention.


As for sound:
AG-440 Very robust / transformer / discreet circuitry / old school / chunky / very rock-n-roll
AG-440B about the same, but better transport operation
AG-440C very similar to REV B, but had newer design heads which have an extended top end

JH-110A More "modern" or hi/fi compared to an AG-440 or AG-440B / not as chunky / robust as an AG-440 / still are a transformer sound
JH-110B Even more "modern" or "accurate"
JH-110C About the same as a JH-110B

The sound and operation of the 1" 8-track machines (AG-440-8, AG-440B-8, AG-440C-8 and all JH-110 1" 8-track versions) follow the sound of the 1/4" machines.
If I had my choice off a machine in 100% operational condition I would go for the MCI JH-110 1" 8-tracks because of the Autolocator.
The Ampex machines sound great and are built like tanks, but they are a very manual machine to operate.
Punching in on an AG-440 type machine takes two hands and some manual switching.
On an MCI JH-110 you "arm" a track before you start the tape running and hit RECORD when you want to punch in.

Ampex AG-440s all struggle to provide enough BIAS SIGNAL to work properly with +9 over 185 nWb/m tape.
JH-110s DO have enough BIAS SIGNAL to work with +9 over 185 nWb/m tapes.

There is more stuff that I am forgetting to mention.
Just ask.

BTW… 1/2" machines DO bring more money.
The parts are more scarce.
You can't just put 1/2" heads on an Ampex and be done with it.
It requires a few other things (1/2" tape guides!)
1/2" 2-track is cool, but it mostly only allows you to pick up 3 db of headroom.
That isn't all that bad, but you really need to be running at 30 IPS to take advantage of the headroom.
Finding someone that can master 1/2" 2-track requires using a real mastering house.

In all honesty, the value of a tape machine these days is determined by the head condition and the physical location.
A $300 1/2" 2-track isn't such a bargain if you have to ship it very far.
A $300 1/2 2-track Otari with worn heads isn't worth much more the a 1/4" with worn heads.
Otaris are not very sought after since they have a Japanese sound as opposed to Ampex and MCI which have a more robust "american" sound.
Studers have a more "accurate" / hi-fi / "european" sound.

It just depends on what subtle differences you are going for.

Last edited by dbbubba; 4th January 2016 at 06:21 AM..
Old 3rd January 2016
  #17
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Wise words Danny.
I'm convinced the best 1" 8 I could hope for is one that's in the best condition to start with and, still has option for parts down the road. It seems an MCI jh110 (Mara for sure if one can afford it) may be the better bet.
Old 4th January 2016
  #18
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Ampex AG-440 notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
All three revisions have DC REEL MOTORS.
The AG-440 electronics are discreet 24V single rail.
Excellent notes, Danny.

However, all versions of the AG-440 use AC reel motors.
The electronics operate on +39 VDC, single rail.
Old 4th January 2016
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cathode View Post
Excellent notes, Danny.
However, all versions of the AG-440 use AC reel motors.
The electronics operate on +39 VDC, single rail.
Yes, you are quite correct.
I was getting tired while typing.
I can't recall every detail, but I should be more careful when I make posts like that.

I'll go back and change these things since people might see it later and get wrong info.

Thanks for slapping me upside the head!
Old 22nd January 2016
  #20
Here for the gear
My apprentice and I have just completed the restoration of an Ampex AG440C 1/4" to sell to a local mastering engineer.
I think they are a workhorse of a machine and this one is still performing very well considering it's years.
All we did was a recap, clean, painted panel refinishing, replace an open circuit head, and alignment!

I can vouch for the sturdyness of the mechanics in the AG440 series and in my opinion and many other techs the mechanical side of the Ampex is superior to the MCI JH machines. MCI used a far lighter top plate and they are often no longer flat which can make true mechanical tape alignment impossible.

The sound of MCI and Ampex are both great, albeit different, but my favorite machines are the Scully 280s.

I have a number of 1/4" machines, Otari, Studer, Revox, Ampex, Scully, MCI. I use Ampex or Scully for the sound and Studer for the tape handling (precious tape transfers etc).

When I get the ATR102 going it may be a different story.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #21
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chet.d's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcuswilson View Post
The sound of MCI and Ampex are both great, albeit different, but my favorite machines are the Scully 280s.

Interesting.
What is it you favor in the Scully 280...Sonics? Not sure about how it compares to the 440 maintenance wise / tech wise etc. curious though.
Old 22nd March 2017
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
Owned them all.

MCI JH-110s came in three revisions Rev A, B and C.
Each is based on the JH-100 transport which is also the same basic transport as most MCI multitrack machines.
However, there were refinements along the way.
The REV A had the INPUT TRANSFORMERS on all models and some early ones had OUTPUT TRANSFORMERS.
Early REV A had the MCI 2003 octal opamps and had +/- 32V DC audio rails.
Later REV A had 5534 DIP opamps and run at +/- 18V DC.
Obviously, the transports give a specific sound as does +/- 32V versus +/- 18V audio rails.
The JH-110 is great sounding platform and although the transport was considered "modern" in the '70s they do suffer from problems due to the use of Molex connectors.
Like all MCI equipment, they can require a lot of attention to keep them operating properly.
Most parts are obtainable, but some parts like the REPRO OPAMP are in very short supply.

The AG-440 came in three regions as well.
There is the AG-440, the AG-440B and the AG-440C.
All use the same basic transport, but it's design was upgraded and updated over the years.
The AG-440 and AG-440B mostly had an AC Hysteresis CAPSTAN MOTOR and the AG-440C had the DC SERVO CAPSTAN MOTOR.
The DC SERVO CAPSTAN MOTOR KIT can be adapted to both the AG-440 and AG-440B.
All three revisions have AC REEL MOTORS.
Only the DC SERVO CAPSTAN equipped machines can run at 30 IPS (they run at all speeds.)
The AC CAPSTAN MOTOR AG-440s are either 3.75 and 7.5 IPS or 7.5 and 15 IPS.
The transport on all AG-440s are fairly basic and are built like tanks.
They are approaching 50 years of age and most still work with only minimal service.
The only real issue is that the transports are not a constant tension transport.
This means that the speed varies slightly at the beginning and end of the reel compared to the middle.
This is generally never and issue unless you are splicing takes from the beginning or end of a reel into the middle of the reel.

The AG-440 electronics are discreet 39V single rail.
They have transformers on the INPUT and OUTPUT.
These are VERY solid running machines and once set up they require only minimal attention.


As for sound:
AG-440 Very robust / transformer / discreet circuitry / old school / chunky / very rock-n-roll
AG-440B about the same, but better transport operation
AG-440C very similar to REV B, but had newer design heads which have an extended top end

JH-110A More "modern" or hi/fi compared to an AG-440 or AG-440B / not as chunky / robust as an AG-440 / still are a transformer sound
JH-110B Even more "modern" or "accurate"
JH-110C About the same as a JH-110B

The sound and operation of the 1" 8-track machines (AG-440-8, AG-440B-8, AG-440C-8 and all JH-110 1" 8-track versions) follow the sound of the 1/4" machines.
If I had my choice off a machine in 100% operational condition I would go for the MCI JH-110 1" 8-tracks because of the Autolocator.
The Ampex machines sound great and are built like tanks, but they are a very manual machine to operate.
Punching in on an AG-440 type machine takes two hands and some manual switching.
On an MCI JH-110 you "arm" a track before you start the tape running and hit RECORD when you want to punch in.

Ampex AG-440s all struggle to provide enough BIAS SIGNAL to work properly with +9 over 185 nWb/m tape.
JH-110s DO have enough BIAS SIGNAL to work with +9 over 185 nWb/m tapes.

There is more stuff that I am forgetting to mention.
Just ask.

BTW… 1/2" machines DO bring more money.
The parts are more scarce.
You can't just put 1/2" heads on an Ampex and be done with it.
It requires a few other things (1/2" tape guides!)
1/2" 2-track is cool, but it mostly only allows you to pick up 3 db of headroom.
That isn't all that bad, but you really need to be running at 30 IPS to take advantage of the headroom.
Finding someone that can master 1/2" 2-track requires using a real mastering house.

In all honesty, the value of a tape machine these days is determined by the head condition and the physical location.
A $300 1/2" 2-track isn't such a bargain if you have to ship it very far.
A $300 1/2 2-track Otari with worn heads isn't worth much more the a 1/4" with worn heads.
Otaris are not very sought after since they have a Japanese sound as opposed to Ampex and MCI which have a more robust "american" sound.
Studers have a more "accurate" / hi-fi / "european" sound.

It just depends on what subtle differences you are going for.

Hello dbbubba,

I have a 1978's MCI JH-110A 1/4" two track, and I would like to ask you how can I know if the audio rails run in +/- 18V DC, or +/- 32V DC? (I find ic 2003 opamps in the cards)

Thanks!!!
Old 23rd March 2017
  #23
Fix up a JH-110C and bias to +9 and you get a 32 k hz flat frequency response and THD drops from .55% at +3 to .15% at +9 at 1k hz. It's a great hi res mix platform for the extended bandwidth crowd that doesn't like digital. Replace the bearings in the guides and motors to aerospace grade 9 and wow and flutter drops 1/2. Then it moves tape like a Studer. Rock solid tones at 10k hz. No more chorus effect on grand pianos.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #24
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

If anyone has part ##'s on the bearings for upgrading the MCI JH110 machines, I'd be alllllll over it!
Old 24th March 2017
  #25
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skybluerental's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Fix up a JH-110C and bias to +9 and you get a 32 k hz flat frequency response and THD drops from .55% at +3 to .15% at +9 at 1k hz. It's a great hi res mix platform for the extended bandwidth crowd that doesn't like digital. Replace the bearings in the guides and motors to aerospace grade 9 and wow and flutter drops 1/2. Then it moves tape like a Studer. Rock solid tones at 10k hz. No more chorus effect on grand pianos.
Hi Jim,

Do you mind saying what you do to the cards when you upgrade a JH-110C?
Old 26th March 2017
  #26
It's designed great but built with crap, I take that stuff out. Stuff like ceramic disc caps for the hi record EQ. It's a lot of little details that all add up.
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