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Best Mic Like a C12??? Condenser Microphones
Old 31st August 2010
  #91
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert L. View Post
Like I said, the only people praising this stuff are the guys that are selling them.
I praise Peluso's ability to emulate classic mics, and I do not sell them.

Keep in mind that no one has said that a Peluso captures all the magic of a vintage C12, they're saying that, "for the price," they've done an amazing job of capturing the basic sound of a C12, and that's absolutely true. But it is NOT a C12 replacement and no one in their right mind believes so, especially those of us doing this for real. I believe "acceptable discrepancy" is the term that's being ignored. For less than $1,500, certain discrepancies are acceptable.
Old 31st August 2010
  #92
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
..... I believe "acceptable discrepancy" is the term that's being ignored. For less than $1,500, certain discrepancies are acceptable.
I agree - but I think FLEA get as close to the original as is possible.

I certainly don't know anyone elso who would spend four years studying a capsule to duplicate it accurately.

And the C12 capsule is about the most complicated of them all - I have seen one in bits.
Old 31st August 2010
  #93
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idylldon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert L. View Post
Like I said, the only people praising this stuff are the guys that are selling them.
As opposed to the other mic mfgs. who are on here every day praising their stuff personally?

I have one of Peluso's early 2247 and it gets used on every session. I can't tell you how many folks have asked about it after using it. I can't comment on any of his other mics because I've never heard them.

BTW, I don't sell them or any other audio product. I know that might be hard to believe considering how many gear pimps litter this board these days, but it's the truth.

Cheers,
--
Don
Old 31st August 2010
  #94
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Haz-Mat-Strat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I agree - but I think FLEA get as close to the original as is possible.

I certainly don't know anyone elso who would spend four years studying a capsule to duplicate it accurately.

And the C12 capsule is about the most complicated of them all - I have seen one in bits.

Tim Campbell


Old 31st August 2010
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert L. View Post
Like I said, the only people praising this stuff are the guys that are selling them.
Most of the ADK comments on this thread were not by dealers. I'm a dealer, but I also sell many other mic brands, which I've used in my own commercial studio for 13 years. I don't work out of a call-center or cubicle. I work in a studio all day, every day. Being a dealer is advantageous because it gives me the chance to demo just about any mic from any brand. I have experience with many mics and I have my favorites. The C12 and some of the ADKs are among them.

Again, ADK has re-invented their line in the last few years so if you tried old models they have changed a lot since then, especially with the Custom Shop line.
Old 31st August 2010
  #96
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I certainly don't know anyone elso who would spend four years studying a capsule to duplicate it accurately.
I don't know any of them personally, but I know of quite a few people who've dedicated substantially more time and energy than 4 years towards the C12 sound.
Old 31st August 2010
  #97
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I owned the P12 and sold it for a C12vr... The P12 was brighter than the C12vr and the vr isn't going to be anyone's fave for a replacement for the real thing but I thought it had a lot more mojo than the P12.

Having a bright top end is one thing but there is something about the c12vr that seems to saturate the signal in a pleasant way. Maybe it's because the C12vr is darker that I like it more.

If I could have afforded to keep both I would have though, Pelus stuff is great but I only have the budget for one tube LDC.
Old 1st September 2010
  #98
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elambo's Avatar
With a couple singers a C12VR was the best mic we could possibly have put in front of them - perfect synergy - but it has never sounded like a vintage C12.
Old 1st September 2010
  #99
The Telefunken AR-51 is also a nice lower-cost alternative to the C12. It's definitely in the same tone family and shares some of the same components, including the same basic amplifier and the Haufe output transformer.
Old 1st September 2010
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat View Post


Where is the diaphragm? You shouldn't be able to see the backplate so clearly!!
Old 2nd September 2010
  #101
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Matti's Avatar
You shouldn't

Matti
Old 2nd September 2010
  #102
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Albert L.,

Reading some of your posts since you signed up last month, you write eerily similar to a certain person who works for a certain mic manufacturer.
Old 2nd September 2010
  #103
Albert and MATTI, There is a diaphram on this capsule and you should be able to see the backplate this easily. I use NOS AKG film on my capsules. It's a beautiful pinkish gold that you see on old AKG capsules. However, the deposit is thin and when it's stretched over a new, bright, shiny brass backplate and photographed under a bright light it appears transparent. The reason you don't notice this phenomenon on old AKG's is that their backplates oxidize and turn a dark, non-reflective green so no light is reflected back through the membrane. Many manufacturers use film with more metal deposited on it and so their backplates can't be seen as easily. If you look around you'll find some capsules (MBHO, Josephson) that appear like mine.
Old 2nd September 2010
  #104
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Matti's Avatar
Tim, I kind of knew it but was trying to be verbal towards Albert

Matti

P.S. I´ll contact you sometime
Old 2nd September 2010
  #105
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Campbell View Post
Albert and MATTI, There is a diaphram on this capsule and you should be able to see the backplate this easily. I use NOS AKG film on my capsules. It's a beautiful pinkish gold that you see on old AKG capsules. However, the deposit is thin and when it's stretched over a new, bright, shiny brass backplate and photographed under a bright light it appears transparent. The reason you don't notice this phenomenon on old AKG's is that their backplates oxidize and turn a dark, non-reflective green so no light is reflected back through the membrane. Many manufacturers use film with more metal deposited on it and so their backplates can't be seen as easily. If you look around you'll find some capsules (MBHO, Josephson) that appear like mine.
Thank you for taking the time for the explanation. I have never seen a capsule where the backplate was so easy to see. I have a Stephen Paul Audio Delta 9 capsule in one of my 251's where you can clearly see the backplate but still not as clearly as in that photograph which was what made me wonder.

Amazing photograph!
Old 3rd September 2010
  #106
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Best Mic Like a C12???

I have an ADK Custom Shop C12 with a Lundahl transformer in it that Larry sent me to demo in my studio now.

It's sick. One of those mics where you get the "wow" factor on that first playback.

It just has so much going on musically in the mids that it stands out from other mics. I need to tell John Kenn about this mic.

I have another C12 with a Sowter transformer coming from Larry as well. So this mic has even more color options.

I have tried a number of ADK Custom Shop mics and they have all been excellent quality. But the capsule and sound of their C12 is in another league. I think they have a big winner with this one.
Old 4th September 2010
  #107
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theBF's Avatar
 

I have been spending a lot of time working with the Peluso CEK12 Capsule and just this week decided, I could no longer handle the 6 to 7 dB lift at 10Khz.

I have always tried to build mic preamps that were very flat, very transparent, I have changed my religion and added a little compensation for the Peluso capsule.

I don't have any instruments recorded but there is a track on the page of me explaining what I did for my "12" upgrade for the APEX 460.

The 12 Upgrade

It's a pretty nice sounding mic now but I kicked some sacred cows while making it.

I use a CCDA amplifier like the APEX (2 stage constant-current-draw-amp) with an old stock 6072, and I create fixed bias like that used in the c12 but I use a modern contraption called an Infra-red LED. (don't throw tomatoes) It gets the job done and doesn't require an extra power supply.

The one in the "podcast" track is using a cinemag CM-2460 transformer.

The internal EQ has been tweeked to reduce the 10Khz lift to 3-4 dB and get back to flat at around 15Khz That's what the AKG plot shows.

After reading these posts I really need to order a capsule from Tim.

Thanks for lead and the great discussion.

BF
Attached Thumbnails
Best Mic Like a C12???-far-c12-v-ii-response.jpg  
Old 6th September 2010
  #108
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Haz-Mat-Strat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBF View Post
I have been spending a lot of time working with the Peluso CEK12 Capsule and just this week decided, I could no longer handle the 6 to 7 dB lift at 10Khz.

I have always tried to build mic preamps that were very flat, very transparent, I have changed my religion and added a little compensation for the Peluso capsule.

I don't have any instruments recorded but there is a track on the page of me explaining what I did for my "12" upgrade for the APEX 460.

The 12 Upgrade

It's a pretty nice sounding mic now but I kicked some sacred cows while making it.

I use a CCDA amplifier like the APEX (2 stage constant-current-draw-amp) with an old stock 6072, and I create fixed bias like that used in the c12 but I use a modern contraption called an Infra-red LED. (don't throw tomatoes) It gets the job done and doesn't require an extra power supply.

The one in the "podcast" track is using a cinemag CM-2460 transformer.

The internal EQ has been tweeked to reduce the 10Khz lift to 3-4 dB and get back to flat at around 15Khz That's what the AKG plot shows.

After reading these posts I really need to order a capsule from Tim.

Thanks for lead and the great discussion.

BF
Hi Brian,



It looks like you are doing some interesting things to your mics.

I have a question. (no tomatos)

The original C12 has a negative voltage around -1.0v DC applied to the grid in respect to the grounded cathode.

To bias the tube correctly the grid should be negative in respect to the cathode.

In the cathode biased tube the cathode is biased with resistors and capacitor to ground making the grid negative in respect to the cathode.

The closer the negative voltage moves to 0v DC on the grid the "hotter" the tube is biased.

According to your web page the LED that you use is supplying the grid with +1.1v DC.

How does the positive voltage to the grid in relation to the grounded cathode, bias the tube properly?

I also use the fixed bias on my mics. I mod the power supply and use the same resistors and capacitors as the C12 to get the negative bias voltage on the grid. This make the mic sound very warm in contrast to the cathode biased tube.

Yes you do need to check out Tim's capsules.


Old 7th September 2010
  #109
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theBF's Avatar
 

Thanks,

I have become addicted to this pursuit for some reason. It's gonna get me in trouble with my day job

My way of explaining needs some work. :-)

So the diode is put in place of the normal cathode resistor. The cathode is then 1.1V about ground but it is a constant 1.1V that doesn't move due to the magic of the diodes avalanche voltage.

Just as with the cathode resistor therefore, the grid is -1.1V when compared to the cathode. So it's that simple, but it doesn't have any limit as far as low frequency response. The bias is solid.

I use IR-LEDS and also 2 1N4148 diodes in series sometimes. I think the 1N4148s sound crisper. The IR-LEDS seem a little rounder. Don't know why, but it seems like it's real and not my imagination. I know the 1N4148 can switch really really fast so maybe that's what's going on.

After I did the work with the EQ correction for the CEK-12 capsule, I tried doing it the classical way. When I connect a 6072 to a Cinemag CM-2480 the highs roll off like crazy! But they are pretty much the right EQ for the CEK 12. So it all works nicely, with less parts and less current.

I also tried making a C12 with the 6922 tube. Interesting... it takes on a bigger sound, more lows, more highs and a little bit of self compression. I re-wired the socket so it can take either the 6072 or the 6922 so I can have either one for just a tube change.

Thanks for noticing my obsession. It's good have other people to talk to.

BF
Old 7th September 2010
  #110
Gear Maniac
 

Dear Fox Audio,
You claim an innovation on your website which is untrue:
Fox Audio Research Home
This amplifier was used in commercial production in the Soundelux U95 microphone starting in 1995, which I designed. I wish I could take credit as an innovator, but as it turns out with most things vacuum tube, there is nothing new under the sun, and that circuit had been used in the late 1930's by an obscure German mfg. I'm sorry I don't remember where I saw it so I can't refer you to the original documentation, but it would serve you well to be honest and update your website with the correct information.
regards,
David Bock
Bock Audio
www.bockaudio.com
Old 8th September 2010
  #111
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theBF's Avatar
 

Thank you David for pointing that out.

It was never my intention to be dishonest, but rather to try and ascribe some credit to the Alctron engineers. There seemed to be a lot of talk about the evils this amplifier configuration, and I saw it as innovation on the part of Alctron.

May I use your text from here in my web site?

I will happily post your quote on the page to help everyone understand that the CCDA amplifier has been used in microphones long before we saw it from Alctron.

BF
Old 8th September 2010
  #112
Gear Maniac
 
theBF's Avatar
 

Corrected.

I wrote up your post in my own language.

Thanks again David

BF
Old 8th September 2010
  #113
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks BF,
I wish more manufacturers over the last 15 years would have displayed your honesty.
regards,
David
Old 15th September 2010
  #114
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Haz-Mat-Strat's Avatar
 

The picture shows a MXL 9000 and a Dutch microphone. Both mics have the AKG C12 circuit with Japanese Takman Carbon film resistors, GE 6072a tube, vintage Phillips mustard caps and Paper in Oil capacitors. The Dutch has a Peluso capsule and the 9000 has a single sided JJ47 capsule.

The Dutch has a Tab Funkenwerk T14 and the 9000 has a Cinemag.

The power supply has been modded to provide the negative voltage for the grid to bias the tube properly. When the tube is biased this way, it is slightly darker and it is a better match for the HF rise in the Peluso capsule. The T14 also mellows the capsule response.

The capacitors are of German and Russian origin. They are also vintage pieces.





Attached Thumbnails
Best Mic Like a C12???-p9140789.jpg  
Old 15th September 2010
  #115
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drak12's Avatar
 

Hi
This will probably be a stupid question in the context of the thread but how does the Blue Kiwi stack up against the admired mics being discussed here?
Thanks
Old 15th September 2010
  #116
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Jim Kerr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBF View Post
Corrected.

I wrote up your post in my own language.

Thanks again David

BF
Nicely done! Cool info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbock View Post
Thanks BF,
I wish more manufacturers over the last 15 years would have displayed your honesty.
regards,
David
I second that! yet not just microphones.
Old 15th September 2010
  #117
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illacov's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haz-Mat-Strat View Post
The picture shows a MXL 9000 and a Dutch microphone. Both mics have the AKG C12 circuit with Japanese Takman Carbon film resistors, GE 6072a tube, vintage Phillips mustard caps and Paper in Oil capacitors. The Dutch has a Peluso capsule and the 9000 has a single sided JJ47 capsule.

The Dutch has a Tab Funkenwerk T14 and the 9000 has a Cinemag.

The power supply has been modded to provide the negative voltage for the grid to bias the tube properly. When the tube is biased this way, it is slightly darker and it is a better match for the HF rise in the Peluso capsule. The T14 also mellows the capsule response.

The capacitors are of German and Russian origin. They are also vintage pieces.





Those caps make ALL the difference in the world.

The low end authority once you add them is monstrous.

Peace
Illumination
Old 27th September 2010
  #118
Gear Maniac
 
Larry Villella's Avatar
Building blocks of tone

To our design-team, there are four building blocks to the tone of a mic:

The Capsule

The Tranny

The PCB

The Valve

Which is what makes the "MIC-MATRIX" Approach Innovative.

We call it User-Defined Technology. (Like matching lens, light, filter and film).

Who knew that on Phil's voice, a G-12S w. the Sowter Tranny in the Mic
and the Crimson Tranny in the Pre-Amp would be the exact spices ? ?

The Goal should be to Fine-Tune the Entire Front-End to fit YOU.

For Sammy Merendino it was the CS-67L, for Lincoln Brewster the
the CS-67J, yet maybe for you it will be the CS-47T with a T-14.

We Stock Six Capsules and Four Tranny's to suit most almost anybody.

If 6 primary colors and 24 secondary colors aren't enough, send us
a Danish, German, Latvian, or American Capsule. You're the Driver!


There are a lot of really good (and even Great) re-builders out there!


My point is no matter who re-builds a microphone for you, you'll achieve
best results if you take the time and energy to define the components ~!



Cheers!


Larry V / ADK Custom Shop / 3 Zigma Audio
Old 2nd December 2010
  #119
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Cinemascope's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSax View Post
Yeah - it's incredible.... Just did a session with a great vocalist - using the mag mic into Atlas Pro Juggernaut Twin, into the Atomic Squeezebox... Jawdropping sound. Seems you just can't make the Innertube stuff sound bad - killer sounds. Amazing gear!
Couldn't agree more
Old 2nd December 2010
  #120
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Adebar's Avatar
Josephson C700

If you are looking for the best mic like a C12, the title of this thread, look at the Josephson C700. The figure eight capsule is derived from the CK12 design.

PSW Recording Forums: Klaus Heyne's Mic Lab => The Skinny on AKG's CK12 Capsule?
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