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DAV BG2 where does it sit API, Neve???
Old 7th July 2008
  #1
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infosponge's Avatar
 

DAV BG2 where does it sit API, Neve???

Where would you say the DAV BG2 sits tonally?
Is it in the API fast and punchy camp, the Neve fat camp or clean and transparent?
More importantly, what's it like on drums, kick, snare, OH, rooms?
It seems quite affordable for 4 pre's what's your thoughts.

Cheers

I.S.
Old 7th July 2008
  #2
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castle's Avatar
 

I would describe it as more like a Millennia HV-3 than either API or Neve.

Clean and fast.
Old 7th July 2008
  #3
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infosponge's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by castle View Post
I would describe it as more like a Millennia HV-3 than either API or Neve.

Clean and fast.
Thanks for the reply
mmm not a character pre then?
How is it on drums?
Old 7th July 2008
  #4
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Plush's Avatar
You will find that the DAV electronics Broadhurst Gardens No.2 is a full sounding clean mic amp that adds syrup and glue to the sounds put through it. I would suggest that this mic amp is for universal use.

The dav electronics range is made to offer you exactly what you put in to it. Whatever the source sounds like, and however you decide to mic the source, that is what the dav will offer up to you.

What family of sound are you seeking?

Amazingly, if the source sounds good, it will sound even better through a Broadhurst Gardens mic amp.

Best from Chicago,

Plush
Old 7th July 2008
  #5
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by infosponge View Post
Where would you say the DAV BG2 sits tonally?
Is it in the API fast and punchy camp, the Neve fat camp or clean and transparent?
More importantly, what's it like on drums, kick, snare, OH, rooms?
It seems quite affordable for 4 pre's what's your thoughts.

Cheers

I.S.
I would not put the API in the fast lane, kinda slow.
Old 7th July 2008
  #6
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I disagree with Plush. This mic-amp shouldn't make anything sound 'better than it really is' if you are using decent mics.

Last time I used a well serviced 'famous vintage' neve mic-amp, it was noisy, muddy, compressed, distorted and could not be compared to the source at all.

The BG mic-amps & the Gordon mic-amps are the only ones I've had direct experience of that can be compared to the source without shame.

Andy
Old 8th July 2008
  #7
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
Last time I used a well serviced 'famous vintage' neve mic-amp, it was noisy, muddy, compressed, distorted and could not be compared to the source at all.


It would make sense if you replace the words "well serviced", with the word "broken".

I have never heard a well serviced Neve Class A preamp that was noisy, compressed or distorted (assuming we are using proper gain staging). The word muddy is more of a subjective term, so I won't debate that.
Old 8th July 2008
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
I disagree with Plush. This mic-amp shouldn't make anything sound 'better than it really is' if you are using decent mics.

Last time I used a well serviced 'famous vintage' neve mic-amp, it was noisy, muddy, compressed, distorted and could not be compared to the source at all.

The BG mic-amps & the Gordon mic-amps are the only ones I've had direct experience of that can be compared to the source without shame.

Andy
When you say "this mic amp" which one are you reffering to
Old 8th July 2008
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyMac View Post
When you say "this mic amp" which one are you reffering to
He means the Broadhurst Gardens range of preamps. They come in different configurations of input channels, but all sound the same. And yes, they sound fantastic.
Old 8th July 2008
  #10
Gear Nut
 

I have a DAV BG-2. Don't expect a "sound" or a "glue-effect". Neutral is the word to decribe this unit. Some might call it bland.

Don't believe the hype about this unit. It's just a decent pre-amp. No more, no less.
Old 8th July 2008
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anseo View Post
Neutral is the word to decribe this unit.
more or less that's it.
+1
Old 8th July 2008
  #12
Gear Head
 
infosponge's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
You will find that the DAV electronics Broadhurst Gardens No.2 is a full sounding clean mic amp that adds syrup and glue to the sounds put through it. I would suggest that this mic amp is for universal use.

The dav electronics range is made to offer you exactly what you put in to it. Whatever the source sounds like, and however you decide to mic the source, that is what the dav will offer up to you.

What family of sound are you seeking?

Amazingly, if the source sounds good, it will sound even better through a Broadhurst Gardens mic amp.

Best from Chicago,

Plush
Reading these forums I get the impression that Plush just spends all day sat in front of his computer waiting for a DAV thread to appear so he can sing his song. heh
Old 8th July 2008
  #13
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by infosponge View Post
Where would you say the DAV BG2 sits tonally?
Is it in the API fast and punchy camp, the Neve fat camp or clean and transparent?
More importantly, what's it like on drums, kick, snare, OH, rooms?
It seems quite affordable for 4 pre's what's your thoughts.

Cheers

I.S.
The BG2 is truer to the source than API's or classic Neve's (in a nice way). It's up to you to decide if you need that truth.

I find they complement the API's and/or the Neve's well.

It can be a good choice on OH, room, maybe on toms too, it all depends on the kind of sound you're after. Snare and kick are API land here.

Hope that helps...
Old 8th July 2008
  #14
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by infosponge View Post
Reading these forums I get the impression that Plush just spends all day sat in front of his computer waiting for a DAV thread to appear so he can sing his song. heh
I enjoy guiding people to great and out of the ordinary sound.

The BG range of mic amps is so good that I chime in when I see a thread.
Here, we are operating 20 channels of BG in big league recording.
Old 8th July 2008
  #15
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bcgood's Avatar
 

Plush is absolutely right about the DAV stuff, it does sound very nice.

Old 8th July 2008
  #16
mml
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mml's Avatar
 

I'd say it's a good sounding, somewhat "round" eq-wise pre. I'd compare it more to a Sytek than a Millennia, but with a little darker top than a Sytek, and not quite as much low mid dynamics, without sounding compressed like a Neve. Millennia's have a "sparkle" in the highs to me that I could never understand why anyone would call them clean, although I like them a ton. The BG doesn't compress or euphonically distort, so I wouldn't call it a "colorful" pre, but the top is a little rounded off IMO. Good for Brass, woodwinds and guitar, and cleaner overhead sounds, especially if using bright mics or the drummer lays into the cymbals. A little boring for vocals or if you want to add "mojo". Just my opinion of course. We've got one and use it all the time for something.
Old 8th July 2008
  #17
Gear Head
 
infosponge's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I enjoy guiding people to great and out of the ordinary sound.

The BG range of mic amps is so good that I chime in when I see a thread.
Here, we are operating 20 channels of BG in big league recording.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacock View Post
You would be very wrong with that assumption. Plush is the real deal. He knows what he is talking about.

I personally would not like recording without the DAV.
Thanks guys,
No insult intended Plush. I just found it funny how many times your name came up along side DAV searches. I thought "jesus, this guy must have a DAV thread alarm set-up" lol! I respect your opinion and experience though.

So the general vibe I'm getting is stick with My APIs for kick, snare and guitar, but the DAV will give me a nice truthful openness on O/Hs, acoustics, brass and anything I want to sound more natural?
Old 8th July 2008
  #18
mml
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I don't know if I'd call them "open". They're a little rolled off in the highs. It sounds like a Sytek might do it better for you, especially if you're looking for something for drums and guitars. Sytek is more realistic in my opinion, and has more low mid punch for drums. Sytek does get a little tubby on acoustics though because of that fact. I wouldn't choose the DAV for acoustics either though. I wouldn't hesitate to use the Sytek on Kick and Snare though, or toms for that matter, and you get two "flavors" with the BB option. Although I never noticed a huge difference there.

Last edited by mml; 8th July 2008 at 09:29 PM.. Reason: added text
Old 8th July 2008
  #19
Lives for gear
I've used the DAV quite a bit. They're definitely not really heavily colored although I would never call it transparent. To me it sounds smooth. Maybe not as exciting as a Neve but it can definitely get the job.

It wouldn't be my first pick for most of what I do ( Rock/ Pop-Rock) but I wouldn't really feel the need to rent a bunch of pres if that's all that's available. I've used it for acoustic stuff and was quite satisfied with the results.

I have a trip-hop / rock song that I tracked for a band using only DAV pres and I was pretty happy with the result. It was a quick session ( 6 hours tracking+mix) so it's not my greatest work but still shows that the Dav can be used in other styles than acoustic/classical stuff.

I'll try to upload it a little later.

BJ
Old 8th July 2008
  #20
Not so happy with my BG-2...willing to sell

I bought a DAV BG-2 a few years ago and it's never done me right. I did contact the company to see about getting it serviced, but was told that the artifact of low frequency hum when engaging the filters was a side-effect of connecting the unit to an unbalanced input. Humpf.

If anybody wants to buy a DAV BG-2 in mint cosmetic condition, send me a PM.
Old 9th July 2008
  #21
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Mike Tholen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by infosponge View Post
Reading these forums I get the impression that Plush just spends all day sat in front of his computer waiting for a DAV thread to appear so he can sing his song. heh
You're SO wrong with that assumption!tutt

I know Plush and his work and he's not fvkkin' 'round with his comments, nor does he get anything out of singing his D.A.V. "song".

That said I think you need to check out the D.A.V.-hear for yourself.

Later-Mike Tholen
Old 9th July 2008
  #22
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ISedlacek's Avatar
DAV is very nice preamp. After a long term experience with it and comparison to many other preamps I would say

1) It is not really neutral and transparent - it is slightly emphasised in the low mids and overall has a bit "syrupish" (someone may say slightly "veiled" ) character. Very slightly "compressed" feeling or how to put it - which brings a "tiny bit bigger than life" impression.

2) although the high frequencies are a tad "syrupish", they are not 100% balanced, suddenly (like in case of violin etc.), there is something jumping out as if

3) it is generally a bit slow in transients, drums etc. are not that clear and "punchy" as with faster preamps

4) Although "slightly "bigger than life", it has a bit smaller 3D image (depth) than some other preamps ...

But for the price, it is definitely one of the best preamp values around.
Old 9th July 2008
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post


It would make sense if you replace the words "well serviced", with the word "broken".

I have never heard a well serviced Neve Class A preamp that was noisy, compressed or distorted (assuming we are using proper gain staging). The word muddy is more of a subjective term, so I won't debate that.
Tony, whether you would notice this with normal mics I don't know, but if you use my mics for a while you get used to a certain dynamic freedom, which was not up to par last time I used the Neve mic-amps.

Of course, I do like to compare to the source, so even a little compression from a mic-amp is noticeable.

On the subject of whether they were well maintained, this was one of the biggest studios in the world, whose maintenance is beyond reproach - 4 different channels sounded the same.

This kind of saturated/vintage sound might be great for close-mic'd pop music but for a natural classical sound I found it compressed.

Andy
Old 9th July 2008
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recording David View Post
He means the Broadhurst Gardens range of preamps. They come in different configurations of input channels, but all sound the same. And yes, they sound fantastic.
Thanks David. Yes, I did mean the BG range.

Regarding the rest of the replies;

Although Ivo's description is valid for his experience, at the level at which Ivo describes the properties of the mic-amp, he is as likely describing the properties of the microphones or speakers as the mic-amp, or at least the interaction between them.

Given that the microphones & speakers are the least accurate part of the process, it is quite possible that the perceived 'flaws' of the DAV mic-amp (from Ivo's perspective) are because of accuracy, rather than because of inaccuracy.

'Syrupish' or 'slow with transients' is not my experience, so I would guess that this is more likely a description of the microphones & speakers.

Clip here made with BG1:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/2504651-post116.html

In direct comparison, this recording stood up to the orchestra in the room very well - which is where most mics & mic-amps fall over - and that is about all you can really ask of a mic-amp.

Andy
Old 9th July 2008
  #25
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post

Given that the microphones & speakers are the least accurate part of the process, it is quite possible that the perceived 'flaws' of the DAV mic-amp (from Ivo's perspective) are because of accuracy, rather than because of inaccuracy.

'Syrupish' or 'slow with transients' is not my experience, so I would guess that this is more likely a description of the microphones & speakers.
First - I don´t think Schoeps or B&W Matrix S3 (or Sennheiser HD 650) are some weak parts of the chain Second - the mentioned features become clear when comparing to similar devices. There is no absolute truth or value per se. Everything is just relative. If you for example record a drum through Millennia/Pendulum/DAV/Flamingo/Forssell etc., for sure you can say that some of them render real punch and transients better than the others. Similarly with other features.
Old 9th July 2008
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Once again, Jim comes inside to dump on the DAV innards.

May I remind doubters that this IS the Decca mic amp design.
As used by Decca, as specified by Decca and as designed by Decca. Many other designs and types were tried and this is the one that they ended up using.

If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.

Besides, so many other things, like the performance for example, are more important than the mic amp.

For you studio pop guys, git up in the singer's face and kick their ass too until they can sing it in tune and as a performance. Tell them it is shameful that they can't sing. Insult them until they do it right. Otherwise, fire them and get another person who can perform the song.

It's called engineering, arranging and producing. Produce it good. If it sounds good, then the BG will sound good.
Old 9th July 2008
  #27
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stevetgn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post

For you studio pop guys, git up in the singer's face and kick their ass too until they can sing it in tune and as a performance. Tell them it is shameful that they can't sing. Insult them until they do it right. Otherwise, fire them and get another person who can perform the song.
Ahem to that!

Now, let me get back to mixing that band that can't sing, play, arrange or write songs so I can pay the bills.
Old 9th July 2008
  #28
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
DAV is very nice preamp. After a long term experience with it and comparison to many other preamps I would say

1) It is not really neutral and transparent - it is slightly emphasised in the low mids and overall has a bit "syrupish" (someone may say slightly "veiled" ) character. Very slightly "compressed" feeling or how to put it - which brings a "tiny bit bigger than life" impression.

2) although the high frequencies are a tad "syrupish", they are not 100% balanced, suddenly (like in case of violin etc.), there is something jumping out as if

3) it is generally a bit slow in transients, drums etc. are not that clear and "punchy" as with faster preamps

4) Although "slightly "bigger than life", it has a bit smaller 3D image (depth) than some other preamps ...

But for the price, it is definitely one of the best preamp values around.
+1

You´re the man, couldn´t say it better!
Old 9th July 2008
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
First - I don´t think Schoeps or B&W Matrix S3 (or Sennheiser HD 650) are some weak parts of the chain...
According to the laws of physics, any speakers/microphones are certainly the weakest links in the chain.

Of course, they are not a weak link in your studio - they are high-end pro and excellent tools - but in terms of reproducing the source, there is no greater distortion than at the hands of the two transducers at each end of the signal chain.

Quote:
Second - the mentioned features become clear when comparing to similar devices. There is no absolute truth or value per se. Everything is just relative.
You are quite right about everything being relative.

In this case, everything is relative to the speakers/microphones - which is my point.

Quote:
If you for example record a drum through Millennia/Pendulum/DAV/Flamingo/Forssell etc., for sure you can say that some of them render real punch and transients better than the others. Similarly with other features.
Unless you take the drum and put the player between your speakers, comparing the reproduction with the real player (blind if possible), it is not very reliable to judge that the speakers render 'real punch'.

For example, if your speakers do not have enough dynamic range (without compression/distortion) to reproduce the drum cleanly, you will favour the pre-amp which provides some RMS gain (compression).

On the other hand, if the speakers can cleanly reproduce the required dynamic range, then the least compressed pre-amp will sound best....

....but wait, this is all depending on the microphones you use to record the source with.....

I spend a lot of time putting drums, pianos, guitars, flutes, voices, etc between my speakers and comparing directly with the source at matched SPL.

This test is very hard on both microphones & speakers.

Andy
Old 9th July 2008
  #30
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Plush's Avatar
But Andy, I don't want to play back a drum kit or an orchestra at actual real volume.

I want to offer the home listener a beautiful listening experience.

In fact I'm not interested at all in these sorts of proofs. They are non real world.

Perhaps they are useful in the laboratory for evaluating your mics.
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