The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
PT fader problems? Jon?
Old 7th January 2003
  #31
Gear Maniac
 

I've got an opinion. I haven't noticed any degradation from fader moves in PTs. Although I'm sure extreme changes in gain will make a difference.

Also, I'm not sure that common practice of A-list engineers matters much here. It's possible that they've heard that this might be true and err on the side safety (i..e keep faders at unity).
Old 7th January 2003
  #32
Jax
Lives for gear
 

This has already been done in the mammoth "Where Are We Up to With Digital?" thread. Most people that had an opinion on the matter let it out there, including myself when I said:

"I've had better overall clarity when using Waves 48 bit double precision plugs (REQ2 usually) as fader volume controls, leaving the channel faders at 0.0. Using a Mix system (still)."

That's not exactly an opinion, it's a way of working. I don't know if HD is any different.

Maybe we should cut and paste that whole damn thing over here again? lol
Old 8th January 2003
  #33
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
T

Maybe we should cut and paste that whole damn thing over here again? lol
We don't need to disuss it at all. This thread is about whether Jon (and I and anybody else we make this available to) can hear a difference or not in an empirical test. Along with an invitation to anyone else to try the same thing.
-R
Old 8th January 2003
  #34
Is it that SSL's are hyper sensitive to anything slightly off +4 line level on the line input stage? ..... just a stab in the dark, you know....

Old 8th January 2003
  #35
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
We don't need to disuss it at all. This thread is about whether Jon (and I and anybody else we make this available to) can hear a difference or not in an empirical test. Along with an invitation to anyone else to try the same thing.
-R
I was pointing out that for me, an empricial test isn't needed. That's why I work the way I do... around the PT faders as much as possible. So yes, I can hear the difference on a Mix system.
Old 8th January 2003
  #36
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
You claimed that changing a fader in Protools adversely afffected the sound of a vocal. If you were monitoring that vocal through an analog console then it's possible that the non-linear qualities of the analog input channel could be responsible for the anomaly you heard. That is, when you moved the Protools fader you moved out of the input channel's sweet spot. I'm not claiming that that's the case, but I am pointing out that it's a variable I eliminated by doing my comparison totally in the digital domain. So yes, it's a relevant issue.

-R
Rick, I re-added the same amount of gain within PT to rule out any analog path difference. I also found that the degradation is bothersome to me after -0.1dB followed by +0.1dB moves.

Your test and the issue with PT faders has nothing to do with the analog path. To deal with the analog path you will need to make a different experiment.

Geeez....how IS Digi is compensating you for your singular effort to relegate PT fader math to the world of the imaginary and the unhearable? Normally, it would seem not so as you post under a real name, but here I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe I should do a CD of my own test and distribute it to the first 20 people who want to hear it.

To all:

More seriously, I have become aware this morning of a specific case of politics involving a certain company leaning on an individual with regard to a post on this forum. If and when I have all the facts, you will hear more about this.
Old 8th January 2003
  #37
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

fuck the politics... listen to the damn files and see if you can tell what is what. christ, this project should of been done at 16/44.1 so it could of been burned and taken anywhere to listen to.
Old 8th January 2003
  #38
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Try it on your DAW and listen for yourself. It's not hard to pull a fader down and a fader up on a lead vocal track in your DAW and compare that to the fader at unity.
Old 8th January 2003
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

<please note, I may be talking out my ass with this...>

IIRC, it has been proven that a +1 fader move in PT does not = a - 1 fader move due to the math used ( sorry for the lack of hard and fast info, I am late to a meeting) could the diffrences be due to the level not being the same? Just curious... and no Jon, PT does not pay me to defend thier processing.
Old 8th January 2003
  #40
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Interesting, Steve, about -1+1 not equalling zero. Can you elaborate on that when you have the time?

In any case, it would seem that -0.1dB followed by +0.1dB wouldn't be too far away from unity, maybe slightly under, depending on how the math is done. In that case, +0.1dB followed by -0.1dB might be a good counter-test. Shouldn't be too hard for you to do, AJ, and report what you hear.
Old 8th January 2003
  #41
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


Geeez....how IS Digi is compensating you for your singular effort to relegate PT fader math to the world of the imaginary and the unhearable? Normally, it would seem not so as you post under a real name, but here I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe I should do a CD of my own test and distribute it to the first 20 people who want to hear it.

To all:

More seriously, I have become aware this morning of a specific case of politics involving a certain company leaning on an individual with regard to a post on this forum. If and when I have all the facts, you will hear more about this.
Jon, that's very disingenuous. You're only diminishing yourself by questioning my integrity. I have no vested interest in this. To me it's the thrill of scientific investigation and the joy of critical thinking and discourse. We can all agree or disagree and nobody has to be an asshole or on the take. (Believe me, I'm so out of the loop I don't even have a NAMM pass---hello...anybody??))

BTW, I haven't told you what conclusions I reached. Why do you assume that you won't be able to hear a difference between those files I sent? You can take me at my word that one of those vocals went through a series of 16 aux channels, with faders up and down.

And yes, if you do a test CD, put me on top of the list. And don't identify which is which. But in the meantime, before you impugn my character again, you should at least do me the courtesy of listening to the files.

-R
Old 9th January 2003
  #42
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Shouldn't be too hard for you to do, AJ, and report what you hear.
makes it kinda difficult when i dont run a TDM system dontchathink? that IS the system in question as always and im curious to hear the files done on one.
Old 9th January 2003
  #43
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
Why do you assume that you won't be able to hear a difference between those files I sent?
Please do not speak on my behalf. Thank you.
Old 9th January 2003
  #44
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
This thread is about whether Jon (and I and anybody else we make this available to) can hear a difference or not in an empirical test.
I have established to my satisfaction that I don't like the sound of PT fader math.

The question is whether you need other people's ears to make up your own opinion on the subject.

Or if you do have an opinion, you have not been forthright enough to state it.
Old 9th January 2003
  #45
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
You're only diminishing yourself by questioning my integrity. I have no vested interest in this. To me it's the thrill of scientific investigation and the joy of critical thinking and discourse.

But in the meantime, before you impugn my character again, you should at least do me the courtesy of listening to the files.
With all due respect, neither of us are scientists. Given the way you interpret and react to what you experience in the studio and what you read here on GS, you do seem fairly artistic. Which is fine. Many folks here are.

Now, most folks do things for two reasons: One they think they are doing it for, and the real one -- and I don't think you're fooling anyone with the reasons stated above.

A number of folks, well-known and well-appreciated, openly have deals with or receive compensation from audio companies. It's business, it's no big deal, and it has little to do with "impugning" someone's character.

But I do question the integrity of anyone who is not forthcoming about their opinion or their motives.

Don't worry, I will still listen to your CD.
Old 9th January 2003
  #46
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Is it that SSL's are hyper sensitive to anything slightly off +4 line level on the line input stage? ..... just a stab in the dark, you know....

In a word -- no.
Old 9th January 2003
  #47
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
With all due respect, neither of us are scientists. ...

Now, most folks do things for two reasons: One they think they are doing it for, and the real one -- and I don't think you're fooling anyone with the reasons stated above.

A number of folks, well-known and well-appreciated, openly have deals with or receive compensation from audio companies. It's business, it's no big deal, and it has little to do with "impugning" someone's character.

But I do question the integrity of anyone who is not forthcoming about their opinion or their motives.

Don't worry, I will still listen to your CD.
Thanks for sharing the folksy wisdom. LOL. So you've decided that somebody's paying me for my opinions and you're bothered that I'm not forthcoming about it? The only one being fooled is you, and you're fooling yourself. I enjoy these discussions and I like taking a scientific approach to finding things out. You can take it at face value.

Last time I checked engineering was considered to be an applied science. When you're trouble shooting a hum or short circuit you try to isolate the one thing (hopefully) that's causing the problem. That's all I'm doing. It is in fact science, but not with a capital "S". It's different from say "I like such-and-such". It's an experiment. Can you consistently point to the one file that went through all the faders. The results of that is data, not opinion. What you prefer, or what you've previously decided, has no bearing on whether you hear a difference in those files.

So if I don't tell you my conclusions then you distrust my motives. But if I were to say that the files sound identical then you write me off as a Digi shill. So really, the only valid response, prima facie, that you will accept from me is that I agree with you.

Best I don't say anything--let us know whether you hear a difference, then I'll be happy to expound at length on what I found and we can have a nice discussion about whatever our findings may be.

Plus these things are more fun if you don't know what to expect.

Enjoy (apologies to Mixerman),

-R
Old 9th January 2003
  #48
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
makes it kinda difficult when i dont run a TDM system dontchathink? that IS the system in question as always and im curious to hear the files done on one.
Alpha,
e-mail me your address and I'll burn you a CD.

What DO you record to, BTW?

-R

[email protected]
Old 9th January 2003
  #49
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


The question is whether you need other people's ears to make up your own opinion on the subject.

Or if you do have an opinion, you have not been forthright enough to state it.
You invited me to send you those files. I don't need your ears to form my own opinion. I need your ears to shed some objective light on the issue. Even better than opinions are informed opinions.

My opinion is that Protools generally sounds better when you mix through a nice analog console (oops, there goes the free Digi t-shirt), although other times it might sound better in the box. There are a myriad of facters that might account for this. The question of fader math is but one.

I will say this. If I had a resolute opinion about fader math I wouldn't be bothering with all this. But if there is a problem, it should be easily demonstrable.

-R
Old 9th January 2003
  #50
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
So you've decided that somebody's paying me for my opinions and you're bothered that I'm not forthcoming about it? The only one being fooled is you, and you're fooling yourself. I enjoy these discussions and I like taking a scientific approach to finding things out. You can take it at face value.

Last time I checked engineering was considered to be an applied science. When you're trouble shooting a hum or short circuit you try to isolate the one thing (hopefully) that's causing the problem. That's all I'm doing. It is in fact science, but not with a capital "S". It's different from say "I like such-and-such". It's an experiment. Can you consistently point to the one file that went through all the faders. The results of that is data, not opinion. What you prefer, or what you've previously decided, has no bearing on whether you hear a difference in those files.

So if I don't tell you my conclusions then you distrust my motives. But if I were to say that the files sound identical then you write me off as a Digi shill. So really, the only valid response, prima facie, that you will accept from me is that I agree with you.
Rick,

I have not "decided" that you are being compensated. The way you carry on about it, supplemented by your so-called scientific tests to "prove" something in this very subjective field -- DID remind me of some tactics we've seen before by some firms (I have to be careful how I state this) and certainly brought to mind the possibility. However, you have stated that it is not the case and I have no reason to doubt you. I am sorry if you felt wrongly accused.

I do have difficulty with the "science and critical investigation" part for at least two reasons: (1) The reasoning you've expressed in this thread does not appear to me to be very logical, nor very scientific. Your extrapolation of your digital test "results" to conclusions about the analog chain is a concrete example; your statement just above that my opinion could shed objective light on the issue is another, when all it would be is...the opinion of just one person, not of a test population of statistical relevance, and (2) you are trying to apply your idea of hard scientific testing to issues of tremendous subjectivity and complexity. There are many independent variables left unaddressed; some of them are that we don't all hear alike or equally well (age, gender, training, ear damage, etc) -- or listen in the same conditions -- or with the same gear.

Rick, if you do not hear a difference, that does not at all mean to me that you are a "Digi shill". It does mean to me, and I reckon to have stated it enough times to register with anyone who wanted to hear it, that your life would be much easier. In any case, MY life would certainly be easier if mixing with PT satisfied me.

I am not writing this to avoid listening to your famous CD. I am in fact quite curious to hear it.

However, I wouldn't mind if you could (1) be politely patient about it, (2) try to avoid putting words in my mouth, as it is annoying, and (3) mellow out on the obsession with pseudo-science in what is a very subjective, emotional and artistic field -- recording and mixing.

If good sound could be guaranteed by specs, numbers and and measurements, and if we all heard things the same, and we all listened with the same gear and acoustics, your approach would make more sense than it does.

It's okay to not agree. You and I are perhaps just very different. So here is a handclasp across the miles and I suppose you'll just have to find someone else to argue with now.
Old 10th January 2003
  #51
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
Alpha,
What DO you record to, BTW?
wire... its the ONLY way to get the warmest analog signal
Old 10th January 2003
  #52
"To all:

More seriously, I have become aware this morning of a specific case of politics involving a certain company leaning on an individual with regard to a post on this forum. If and when I have all the facts, you will hear more about this."

Rick - I can confirm that comment was never about you..... so dont sweat it.

Old 10th January 2003
  #53
Gear Head
 

Jon Said:


Quote:
But I do question the integrity of anyone who is not forthcoming about their opinion or their motives.
Man you really are paranoid. I dont know Krizman, and I dont have any vested interest in Digi gear whatsoevr. Its obvious that R Krizman's motives are purely for research. YOUR ducking and diving just gets funnier with each post. But basically you ARE SCARED that ther is no difference. Even a 3 year old kid could work that one out.

Your very cool at dropping so called supecool French engineers/Producers names, and very cool at explaining why you dont have a total of 20 Minutes to listen to a sound file that you PERSONALLY asked for. AND BTW I have met some full on amateurs who have had major success in the recording biz. Some of these guys wouldnt know their aass from their elbow but their up there lauded as the great mixers. In reality many of them have legions of younger and better guys helping them out. But oh the guys you work with all have super brains... Yeh Right!

I actually remember when Krizman offered you this about a month agao and even then you tried to squirm out of it. You maintain there is a problem so lets hear what you have to say, BUT LISTEN TO THE FILES..first.

Dude, try and have some Honour!


Krizman, I think i said before you are wasting your time with this guy. Why not send them to someone who will have the decency to listen to them. And one last bit of advice. Dont lower the tone of your posts to the level of Jon's posts as you have been courteus up to the point where he basically called you a liar. He is simply trying to goad you so that he WONT have to listen to the files.

Quite simply he's an ignorant, and arrogant man.

Yeh! so ban me!
Old 10th January 2003
  #54
Gear Head
 

Of course I have simply just gone and lowered the tone yuktyy
Old 10th January 2003
  #55
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Robinhood
Of course I have simply just gone and lowered the tone yuktyy
Ah, but it was on someone else's behalf, so you get good bodhisattva points. (Jon's going to think I paid you to say that)


Cheers,

Dr. PseudoScience
Old 10th January 2003
  #56
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"To all:

More seriously, I have become aware this morning of a specific case of politics involving a certain company leaning on an individual with regard to a post on this forum. If and when I have all the facts, you will hear more about this."

Rick - I can confirm that comment was never about you..... so dont sweat it.

Oh I wasn't worried about that. Who knows what the fuck he was talking about. And who cares. I convey my thoughts in a way that should stand on their own merits. I shouldn't have even indulged in any indignation, because his comments were just so off the wall.

-R
Old 10th January 2003
  #57
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon

I do have difficulty with the "science and critical investigation" part for at least two reasons: (1) The reasoning you've expressed in this thread does not appear to me to be very logical, nor very scientific. Your extrapolation of your digital test "results" to conclusions about the analog chain is a concrete example; your statement just above that my opinion could shed objective light on the issue is another, when all it would be is...the opinion of just one person, not of a test population of statistical relevance.
I know you're having difficulty with it, so I'll try one more time. Here it is. I'm not looking for your opinion. I want to know if you can distinguish between the files. That's not a matter of opinion, but of fact. Either you will or you won't. In either case, the result is data, not opinion.

By not telling you my observations in advance, I'm freeing you to listen without being encumbered by any prejudices.

-R
Old 10th January 2003
  #58
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
wire... its the ONLY way to get the warmest analog signal
So when the wax cylinder came out did you re-buy all your wire recordings as wax?

-R
Old 10th January 2003
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
So when the wax cylinder came out did you re-buy all your wire recordings as wax?

-R
I did. And months later got shafted when 5.1 wax came out.
Old 10th January 2003
  #60
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
I know you're having difficulty with it, so I'll try one more time. Here it is. I'm not looking for your opinion. I want to know if you can distinguish between the files. That's not a matter of opinion, but of fact. Either you will or you won't. In either case, the result is data, not opinion.

By not telling you my observations in advance, I'm freeing you to listen without being encumbered by any prejudices.

-R
I will post what I hear. But as an isolated datum, it is worthless in a scientific context unless part of a test population of statistical relevance. If you are not doing a statistically-relevant test, with a minimum of conclusive merit, then it is clear that you are not acting with scientific motives but rather merely personal ones.
πŸ“ Reply
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
πŸ–¨οΈ Show Printable Version
βœ‰οΈ Email this Page
πŸ” Search thread
♾️ Similar Threads
πŸŽ™οΈ View mentioned gear