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Digidesign Eleven TDM plugin Amp Sim & Guitar Effects Plugins
Old 3rd June 2008
  #1
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alexamk's Avatar
 

Digidesign Eleven TDM plugin

OMG, this is by far the best Amp emulation plugin. Especially used with a great direct box. I have exclusively used tube amps for years, Bogner, Soldano, Marshall, Mesa Boogie. The first time I played with the Line 6 POD stuff, I was so disappointed with how it tried to emulate the valve amps, including the original amp farm. Then I got Eleven for my HD system, and I was floored. Curious of anyone elses findings. I may not mic up an amp for a while, this thing is so much fun and the sound kicks ass!
Old 3rd June 2008
  #2
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Energie's Avatar
 

I think there are some nice models on the 11 plug in, Really felt better and a bit more realistic playing with, still not quite as good as a really good amp, but a nice addition.
Old 3rd June 2008
  #3
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T_R_S's Avatar
Eleven is Amazing Sample --> LINK
Old 3rd June 2008
  #4
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gm5k's Avatar
 

here are some samples that were posted by Marco Sfogli on his website.

Mesa Rectifier model...

http://www.marcosfogli.com/musica/JOL_Tone.mp3

Mesa Mark IIC+ model...(just the solo track is Eleven I believe)

http://www.marcosfogli.com/musica/Drained_Test.mp3

this guy would sound good on anything, though...so i dont how reliable this really is heh

at any rate, IMO these tones sound VERY usable! Eleven has caught my attention...
Old 4th June 2008
  #5
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I love it as well. I can get ideas done at midnight if u want to. Sometimes its what I'm looking for and I keep it, if not, I reamp. Keeps the vibe going and that's worth the price alone.
Old 4th June 2008
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by barryjohns View Post
I love it as well. I can get ideas done at midnight if u want to. Sometimes its what I'm looking for and I keep it, if not, I reamp. Keeps the vibe going and that's worth the price alone.
it's really hard to convince the clients that they don't have to
bring in their rig ;-)

Eleven is great. ... combine that with the Stomps from GTR3 and
it's a really great.

jeff
Old 4th June 2008
  #7
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Holy Grail's Avatar
 

Agree !! really like the Eleven aswell !!! So far the best out there ! (Want sell my amps yet though...)

Jon
Old 4th June 2008
  #8
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Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

am i the only one that thought those marco clips weren't anything to get excited about? especially the full song version. i thought it sounded downright bad.
Old 4th June 2008
  #9
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Energie's Avatar
 

the full song mix was unbearably grating to my ears. but the single track sounded quite fine to me
Old 4th June 2008
  #10
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Holy Grail's Avatar
 

I did not listen to the clips... My word on the Eleven is from using it myself.
Old 4th June 2008
  #11
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Not bad, but it still has that hi fizz that every single amp sim is incapable of disguising.

There are definitely uses for that sound though and I really like using sims for the presence you can get out of them. If you don't have access to amazing amps, mics, etc, blah, etc then they are a great option.
Old 4th June 2008
  #12
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intolerance's Avatar
 

Sorry, this still sound very much like emulation to me, especially when stacked in a mix.
Old 5th June 2008
  #13
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Daedalus77's Avatar
We just got it for our HD rig. It's fun, and interesting, and it will see lots of applications—many beyond tracking guitars.

Still, my take on all of these amp simulators—though I'd agree they are fine for late-night writing, tracks that you're going to reamp, or quick demos—is that they can't reproduce the dynamics of playing through an amplifier.

Specifically, plugging into a preamp and converter just isn't like plugging into the input stage of a tube amp. You can't reproduce the interaction between player, pickups, and speaker in a real room. And those dimensions of the sound are precisely the aspects of the take that make it compelling and authentic, most of the time.

The software sure is fun, though.
Old 5th June 2008
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
am i the only one that thought those marco clips weren't anything to get excited about? especially the full song version. i thought it sounded downright bad.
Yeah they sounded downright terrible IMO. I'm not saying that it isnt good and those loving it are wrong. I havent heard it other than the samples. I'm just saying that if it IS good, they did NOT do it justice with those samples. They were cringeworthy for the most part (I actually liked the cleaner stuff a lot more than the distortion and thats not usually the case with emulations).

I should also say that I am not someone who hates these sort of plug ins on the whole. I find McDSP Chrome amp very useful when mixed with real amps.
Old 5th June 2008
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daedalus77 View Post

Specifically, plugging into a preamp and converter just isn't like plugging into the input stage of a tube amp. You can't reproduce the interaction between player, pickups, and speaker in a real room. And those dimensions of the sound are precisely the aspects of the take that make it compelling and authentic, most of the time.
Very true. That is exactly why I split the signal going to the real amp when tracking guitars. This way I get the reaction of the guitar to the real amp when they play and it is translated to the clean signal that I take into Pro Tools. Later I can reamp that signal and it makes the software stuff work a LOT better.
Old 5th June 2008
  #16
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gm5k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Clip Audio View Post
Yeah they sounded downright terrible IMO. I'm not saying that it isnt good and those loving it are wrong. I havent heard it other than the samples. I'm just saying that if it IS god, they did NOT do it justice with those samples. They were cringeworthy for the most part (I actually liked the cleaner stuff a lot more than the distortion and thats not usually the case with emulations).

I should also say that I am not someone who hates these sort of plug ins on the whole. I find McDSP Chrome amp very useful when mixed with real amps.
to each his own...

i still think they sound awesome.

the first riff he is playing a Petrucci riff, and it sounds remarkably close to the Petrucci album...regardless of whether people think it sounds good to them or not. also John never uses emulations...so it impressed me in that way.
Old 5th June 2008
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by gm5k View Post
to each his own...

i still think they sound awesome.
I meant the samples on the Digi site btw.
Old 5th June 2008
  #18
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gm5k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Clip Audio View Post
I meant the samples on the Digi site btw.
oh ok maybe i should have responded to the other gentlemen who mentioned Marco. my bad heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
am i the only one that thought those marco clips weren't anything to get excited about? especially the full song version. i thought it sounded downright bad.
remember only the guitar solo track is Eleven.
Old 5th June 2008
  #19
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Clip Audio View Post
Yeah they sounded downright terrible IMO. I'm not saying that it isnt good and those loving it are wrong. I havent heard it other than the samples. I'm just saying that if it IS good, they did NOT do it justice with those samples. They were cringeworthy for the most part (I actually liked the cleaner stuff a lot more than the distortion and thats not usually the case with emulations).

I should also say that I am not someone who hates these sort of plug ins on the whole. I find McDSP Chrome amp very useful when mixed with real amps.
There were a lot of people who felt the same way when judging by the samples, but once they downloaded and actually used it, their minds changed quickly. Not every one, but a heck of a lot.
Old 5th June 2008
  #20
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Squawk's Avatar
I downloaded the Eleven demo last month and really wanted to like it, but I didn't.

It's great to have some other TDM options though. Maybe I need to give it another shot, just really fell flat for me.
I must have missed something.

I'm digging Guitar Rig 3 (much better than version 2), and looking forward to Peavey Revalver MKIII being released. I think that one will be at the top of the list for me.
Old 13th June 2008
  #21
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Chris Townsend's Avatar
 

Hi guys,

I'm the lead developer for Eleven, and I wrote all of the amp models. I've been lurking for a while, but I figured I might as well join in the discussion. It's great to hear so much positive feedback about Eleven, and as for the negative feedback, well that's fine too. Personally I like the guitar tone on gm5k's clips, at least if you're going for that style of music. Regarding the Eleven demos on the Digi website, overall I'm not totally crazy about them, even the newer ones, but it depends somewhat on the particular clip. I'm sure at some point we'll get more/better demos.

By the way, it turns out Motley Crue used Eleven to record ALL of the guitar tracks on their latest album. The complete story is available here:

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=49&langid=100&itemid=32358

While I'd say Motley Crue is clearly past their prime, it's still kind of cool to see them using Eleven. As a teenager I owned their first 4 or 5 albums. When I heard about this story, I gave the single Saints of Los Angeles a listen, and while I wouldn't say it's the utmost epitome of good tone, it definitely sounds like real amps to me and sounds about like your typical rock record these days. Of course, opinions will vary about their guitar tone, but seriously if you didn't know that it was an amp sim, would you have guessed?
Old 13th June 2008
  #22
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
am i the only one that thought those marco clips weren't anything to get excited about? especially the full song version. i thought it sounded downright bad.
No, I thought the same thing. The screaming chick tune was awful. Guitar tone wasn't something I'd be proud of. I know for a fact that Eleven can sound better.

I tried the demo of Eleven - thought it was nice. For software, it's among the best of the available options. Still, nowhere near a good amp. ( I know -- beating a dead horse)
Old 13th June 2008
  #23
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Chris Townsend

Whoa!

Thanks for posting Chris!

Very cool of you IMHO

Welcome to GS
Old 13th June 2008
  #24
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Chris Townsend's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squawk View Post
I downloaded the Eleven demo last month and really wanted to like it, but I didn't.

It's great to have some other TDM options though. Maybe I need to give it another shot, just really fell flat for me.
I must have missed something.
Hi Squawk,

On the Digi User Conference someone asked for advice on DI calibration and setup into Eleven, and I thought that might have something to do with the lackluster results you were getting. And I suspect other's my be having similar difficulties. Anyhow, here's what I posted:

I'll try to clear things up, but this is a tricky issue since we do not know what kind guitar, DI, and gain settings that you're using. The input impedance of your DI has an effect, which can be quite significant. An actual tube amp has about a 1 meg input impedance at low frequencies and 50k to 100k ohm input impedance at very high frequencies. Generally I recommend a DI with around a 1 meg input impedance (at all frequencies), as the closest approximation to a tube input stage, but that may might result in a tone that's a little too bright depending on the pickups your using. You might want to try various DI's or turn the "tone" knob down on you guitar ever so slightly.

One thing to keep in mind is that the input impedance mainly affects the amount of resonance (i.e., Q) in the pickup. So using an EQ to rolloff the high frequencies is not going to be exactly the same as lowering the pickup resonance, unless you know what the resonant frequencies of your pickups are and set the EQ in just the right way. Nonetheless you might be able to get close with EQ, although using the tone knob on your guitar will actually reduce the resonance (assuming passive pickups), so that might be a better option. Also, keep in mind the difference between a 1 meg, and 10 meg ohm input impedance is probably not going to be huge, at least on for most guitars (it depends quite a bit on the resistance of the volume and tone pots, which tend to swamp the effect of the DI impedance). Regardless of all this, I simply recommend you do what you think sounds best.

Input level calibration is also key to getting realistic tone. Basically 0dBFS in in Eleven corresponds to the highest output guitar we could find played as hard as humanly possible. We did this to handle to the worst case scenario. If we calibrated to a lower output guitar then switching to the hotter output guitar would result in clipping or if you compensated by turning the gain down then the hotter guitar wouldn't be driving the amp as it normally would.

We put a input level LED on Eleven to guide you in adjusting your levels, but because of it's small size and resolution the LED on Eleven is a fairly rough indicator, so I suggest just using it as a guide to get you in the ballpark. A better option is to use a track peak meter. Here's what we recommend you do:

Use a guitar with the hottest pickups you can find. Generally this means using a humbucker bridge pickup. Now route your guitar signal into ProTools. Enable the peak meter indicator on your guitar track. On Windows I think you control click twice on the track's gain text display. On the Mac I forget what the key is. By the way, a slightly more accurate option is to monitor the peak level on a Master Fader (I'll save you the details as to why). Now play with all of the gusto you've got. I usually strum an open E as hard as I can. Sometimes it takes 10 seconds or more for the tippy top most peak to come through. Now adjust the gain on your DI until you are about 1 or 2 dB below full scale. Of course this is not totally 100% foolproof since your hot humbucker guitar might not be as hot as mine, but I think it will get you close enough. Let me know how that works for you.

Now there's one other more advanced option, which assumes you know how to use a volt meter. In terms of volts Eleven is calibrated to approximately 3.5v RMS = 0dBFS. If you want to calibrate this way, hook an output from ProTools into your guitar DI. Setup a signal generator plug-in, so it's routed to the Pro Tools output at or near full scale with a 1kHz sine wave. Now hook up your volt meter (set it to AC mode) across the hot and ground (tip and sleeve) of the cable going into the DI. I usually do this by unscrewing the jack cover on the cable. Now adjust the level going into the DI to 3.5v RMS (you can of course do that by adjusting signal generator directly or with an analog gain control). Lastly set the gain on the DI so that Pro Tools sees just under 0dBFS coming in.

We didn't mention this method in the Eleven documentation, because we were afraid that it would be too complicated and error prone for most users. If you try this method, I suggest you also use the standard method to corroborate your results. If the results are really different and you've double checked everything I suggest you go with the standard method. I hope that helps.


Chris Townsend,
Lead Eleven Developer
Old 13th June 2008
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
am i the only one that thought those marco clips weren't anything to get excited about? especially the full song version. i thought it sounded downright bad.
No, you're not....I don't like to disparage anyone but that is NOT a good guitar sound....
Old 13th June 2008
  #26
Lives for gear
 

I demoed eleven and was pretty impressed with it. Definitely better than the other amp sims I've tried. the 3 samples of latency is great in the feel dept. I was impressed enough to use it for several tracks on a record I was producing at the time.

A few weeks later I started another project (demo had expired) and fired up my AC30...it took me about 11 seconds to realize that it wasn't even close. Playing an amp is an ENTIRELY different experience. I'm not saying that you can't get usable sounds from eleven and it's very useful in many situations, but...an amp it's not.

BTW, I recently demoed Vintage Amp Room and I like it better than eleven. It's more raw sounding, less plasticky. But still...no contest with the real deal.


-Z-
Old 13th June 2008
  #27
Call me cynical, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if you posted a vintage vox through a vintage U47 through an imaculate analog chain, then posted something like "Hey, how do you think my amp sim based song sounds", the people would say it sounds like crap :-)
Old 13th June 2008
  #28
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Squawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Townsend View Post
Hi Squawk,


I'll try to clear things up, but this is a tricky issue since we do not know what kind guitar, DI, and gain settings that you're using.

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the detailed information, I'll certainly give it another shot as it's really handy for me to have good TDM options.

FYI I use a Reddi and a U5 for DI, Les Paul and tele's.

I think part of it for me was my high expectations after watching the promo info regarding development and the detail that went into it.

I don't mean to take anything away from you guys by my lack of enthusiasm. I just think there's a lot of competition in this area, and some very good things coming out.

I did demo Vintage Amp Room prior to Eleven, and was quite impressed with it, so my expectations and the benchmark for Eleven were very high prior to demoing it.


Like I said though, I will check it out again when I get a the chance.
Old 13th June 2008
  #29
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I really like eleven; I think it does some things very, very well. But Vox AC30 is not one of them. It's not even close, borderline embarrassing. My Vox AC30 blows it away.

That being said, I really love some of the other emulations. I don't own the amps, so I don't care if they are on the money or not. I can get some really great sounds out of most of them.
Old 13th June 2008
  #30
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T_R_S's Avatar
I have a P.R.S. and a Radial DI and I say for sure plugging a guitar into an ISA 430 Mk I or an SSL XLogic, Amp Farm or Eleven Wave GTR sounds a lot better with a good preamp VS even a good DI.
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