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Avalon 737 vs Amek CIB
Old 7th December 2002
  #1
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Avalon 737 vs Amek CIB

I know this is one of those "must use you own ears" comparisons. But, I'm curious what you guys think. I'm thinking the price difference will allow me to add maybe a single distressor or a single 1272 if I go with a pair of avalons
Old 7th December 2002
  #2
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Has anyone used the tube tech channel in a box?? They make some good shyt I'd be interested in comments on these also
Old 7th December 2002
  #3
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You might need the distressor if you go with the 737 'cause the compressor section is not really happening IMO. It's not a bad box but the comp have never done much for me...
Old 7th December 2002
  #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by groundcontrol
You might need the distressor if you go with the 737 'cause the compressor section is not really happening IMO. It's not a bad box but the comp have never done much for me...
big ditto on th copressor....s l o w
Old 7th December 2002
  #5
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Neve Sucks!'s Avatar
 

I just got the Amek DMCL (dual comp/micpre/ad). That´s a hell of a jam can...
The compressor is tighter than a cheerleaders....micpre is clean and nice, loads of attack for that rock´n´roll sound......AD sounds sweet (like 600% better than the 888).....

What is really useful is that you can sidechain the high and lowpass to the compressor, awesome on drums and bass...
Old 7th December 2002
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Funny you guys would suggest that. Part of my main reason for thinking about the 737's would be so I could afford the Distressors.

I notice with the sales of vintech pieces, Brent Averill has gone down on his 1073's. They are only like $2300 each now

I have narrowed it down to
CIB
1073/Distressor
Avalon 737/Distressor

Here's a question

Since most of my signals will come from drum machine/synths and not mics Would my money not be better spent getting a bunch of different flavors of DI's instead of mic pre channels? would the effect not be the same. Given that if I buy a pre I'm gonna mainly use it for DI input. I only need single channel pres
Old 7th December 2002
  #7
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i love the 737 , some say it is to transparent....thats what i love about it..also the best bass direct box i have ever used..the compressor is slow but i still find uses for it...got rid of my distressor.....just didn't use it enough...between duy and mcdsp i found i was using the plugs with other compressors more...
Old 7th December 2002
  #8
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the 737 is great. The attack times are a bit slow, especially on drums, but still quick enough for vocals, bass, etc... Great unit, I got 2. Avalon's customer service has always done me well in the past.
Old 7th December 2002
  #9
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not a fan for 737 here...i like their more expensive stuff, ie, 2055, 2077 or 2044. and the 737 is definitely not in the same league as their more expensive gears. i think there are better and more versatile "recording channel in a box" out there...but probably for a bit more money.
Old 7th December 2002
  #10
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I have the 737 and the CIB. The 737 has a delicate soft sound, the EQ is great. The compressor leaves a little to be desired. The CIB is awesome for vocals, I usually use a trakker to compress the signal

Hope this helps
Old 7th December 2002
  #11
Re: Avalon 737 vs Amek CIB

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
I know this is one of those "must use you own ears" comparisons. But, I'm curious what you guys think. I'm thinking the price difference will allow me to add maybe a single distressor or a single 1272 if I go with a pair of avalons
Like u said its an ear thing. I like them both. I've used mics where only the 737 pre was usable(and we are talking about Neumans here).

I think a pair of 737's is cool(I like the EQ although not as versatile as the CIB). They also don't link as well, but Avalon can fix that(like E-cue said Avalon is one of the coolest companies in the world, service free of charge). For a while I used a linked pair as my comp/EQ for mixing backgrounds vocals(very sweet). When tracking I didn't care for the comp(but like I said earlier, Avalon will modify the settings if you like). Having direct inputs in the front makes tracking line instruments much easier than the CIB.

I love the CIB when tracking vocals. Its my main pre I take on my vocal tracking dates(I am adding a Martech MSS10 later on). I love the EQ, again when mixing its probably my favorite right now on bass and lead vocal sub chains. The comp is better at mixdown in my opinion. I normally don't compress vocals when tracking these days, but when I do I have other things i tend to use first(EAR 660), but I have used it for great results.

If it were me, I would lean to the pair of 737's and Distressor (you can have the Distressor chasing the 737 opto when doing vocals).

I hope this helps some.
Good luck.
Old 8th December 2002
  #12
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From the comments above a couple raise questions for me. Could someone explain the following:

"you can sidechain the high and lowpass to the compressor, awesome on drums and bass..."

I love the EQ, again when mixing its probably my favorite right now on bass and lead vocal sub chains What are sub chains?

I would lean to the pair of 737's and Distressor (you can have the Distressor chasing the 737 opto when doing vocals).

what does chasing one comp with another do? Obviously avalon comp not good enough on it's own,,,why not. Can you describe the sound of vocals under each scenario (avalon aloan then being chased?)

ciao woods
Old 8th December 2002
  #13
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Neve Sucks!'s Avatar
 

Dj WOODS!

If you sidechain the highpass filter to the compressor, you will not compress under the given frequence. E.g, if you set the highpass filters to 100Hz, it will not compress the signal under 100Hz. I find this vey useful when compressing a drum kit for example, you will still have lots of bass even if you compress the hell out of the drums. Same works for bass.

*Mr Gearzlut*
Old 8th December 2002
  #14
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Ok so It's decision time for me. I'm going with a pair (maybe a single) Avalon 737. My line of thinking is that next year down the line I'll still be feeling I need some new shyt and an upgrade so at that time It will probably be time for the CIB's

I need something pretty functional because my plan is to EQ and compress my sounds on the way in so that I can avoid using plugins when not absolutely necessary. For instance I usually wind up filtering sounds on the low end to make them fit. I would like to start this process earlier.

I think protools works (MIX systems)) But the secret that people miss besides getting signal flow and levels correct is GETTING IT RIGHT BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE BOX!!!!

I REPEAT GETTING IT RIGHT BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE BOX!

And I don't think this has to be hella expensive since most of the work I do is midi dumps and overdubs. I'm thinking For Compression
KIck n Snr dbx 160xt $300
Guitars dbx 160xt/plugins $300
Bass/Vocal Avalon 737/Distressor $3200
Synths/etc plugins/Avalon/Distressor $3200

EQ duties can be handled by the Avalon 737 in tandem with my old pieces Manley Pultec and NTI EQ3 (especially for the air band)

All I need now is some quality verbsgrggt

And today I take over the world

It's pinky and the Brain
It's pinky and the Brain
It's pinky and the Brain yuktyy
Old 8th December 2002
  #15
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mixer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
I REPEAT GETTING IT RIGHT BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE BOX!

Amen....i would just be careful using the destressor in the recording process....its easier to add harmonic distortions than to remove them later.........i use plugins during recording lots...so that is possible also...
Old 8th December 2002
  #16
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
GETTING IT RIGHT BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE BOX!!!!

I REPEAT GETTING IT RIGHT BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE BOX!


That's a quote from rule 1 in the holy book of recording techniques.


Old 9th December 2002
  #17
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ghoost's Avatar
 

Granted ... it's all subjective but ...

The CIB would serve your immediate needs better .. in my humble opinion. And I have a pair of 737's. I find the comp almost useless. The EQ doesn't completely thrill me, although it does find it's way into a mix on occasion. *Your present EQ provides more of an umph factor. The pre is the best part on the 737 and applicable in numerous situations.

The CIB ... has a much more versatile comp (you would't need to supplant it with a Distressor) ... the EQ is a Neve based design (need I say more) ... and the pre is superb. While it may be more than a 737, I think it's cheaper when the Distressor is tagged on. Not to say you should't get an EL8 someday or even a Trakker. Just thinking of immediate bang for the $
Old 9th December 2002
  #18
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Not to mess your head up too much again but one little point to consider also is that both your current eq boxes are on the smooth wide Q side. (Good for general tonal adjustment but not suited to surgical type work.) The 737 eq, although quite good, is of a somewhat similar type and might prove only marginally more flexible. Even though it's generally a bad idea to start going heavy handed with the eq at recording time you'd have the ability to do more specific equing with a CIB. Also, it might prove more useful comes mix time.

Just some more things to ponder... Good luck!
Old 9th December 2002
  #19
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Groundcontrol, actually you didn't mess with my head more. I have been thinking that same thing (I always think alot before spending money)
I do need more of a surgical EQ. This is what had me thinking about separate pieces in the beginning. I'm gonna look into the CIB some more along with the API channel strip
Old 9th December 2002
  #20
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Quote:
All I need now is some quality verbsgrggt
I would take a serious look at the KSP8 in this dept. More than enough bang for the $. The verbs rank with anything out there and you get a ****load of other useful goodies rollz
Old 9th December 2002
  #21
Quote:
Originally posted by woods
From the comments above a couple raise questions for me. Could someone explain the following:

I love the EQ, again when mixing its probably my favorite right now on bass and lead vocal sub chains What are sub chains?

I would lean to the pair of 737's and Distressor (you can have the Distressor chasing the 737 opto when doing vocals).

what does chasing one comp with another do? Obviously avalon comp not good enough on it's own,,,why not. Can you describe the sound of vocals under each scenario (avalon aloan then being chased?)

ciao woods
Over the years i have stopped compressing the crucial elements in a mix. For me those are: Kick,snare,bass and vocals(even though i might compress it in the mix, but more for color than leveling). I feel that compression takes both the life and color out of these sounds. Instead i just create subs or mults of the signals and process those. If I feel anything is lacking in one of the instruments above I just add it to it.

The vocals needs more body, I setup the a mult of the lead going through some processors(EQ/comp) and sneak it back in. Same for bass(which works better than EQing the actual bass itself). It takes a lot of practice to get the right combinations for the right colors. But it works and when it does its hard to go back to old ways.

I sometimes chase comps if I want heavy compression without the EQ changes it imparts. Most of the time when mixing I normally use high thresholds and low ratios, but sometimes a little more agression is needed. So instead of relying on one comp to do the trick, I split up the work among(2) and i can process the instrument heavily without changing its charater unless that's what I want.

A good combination that works on vocals is a LA3A into an SSL or DBX160X compressor if its an agressive rock vocal. You can really pull out the attacks of the words and still keep the rest(quiet parts) in your face.

Hope this helps some.
Old 9th December 2002
  #22
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by no ssl yet
Funny you guys would suggest that. Part of my main reason for thinking about the 737's would be so I could afford the Distressors.

I notice with the sales of vintech pieces, Brent Averill has gone down on his 1073's. They are only like $2300 each.
Sorry to pull this out of the rest of the 737 thread, but the price reduction you note is for Brent's answer to Vintech - not Neve modules racked.

Small ($2500 per pair), but important distinction to some people.
Old 9th December 2002
  #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
A good combination that works on vocals is a LA3A into an SSL or DBX160X compressor if its an agressive rock vocal. You can really pull out the attacks of the words and still keep the rest(quiet parts) in your face.
I like this combination, that's what I used on the last project I did. It wasn't really rock but the vocal desperately needed some help in the attitude department. Talk about a vocal that stays put in the mix!
Old 9th December 2002
  #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Over the years i have stopped compressing the crucial elements in a mix. For me those are: Kick,snare,bass and vocals(even though i might compress it in the mix, but more for color than leveling). I feel that compression takes both the life and color out of these sounds. Instead i just create subs or mults of the signals and process those. If I feel anything is lacking in one of the instruments above I just add it to it.
I sometimes chase comps if I want heavy compression without the EQ changes it imparts. Most of the time when mixing I normally use high thresholds and low ratios, but sometimes a little more agression is needed. So instead of relying on one comp to do the trick, I split up the work among(2) and i can process the instrument heavily without changing its charater unless that's what I want.
Thrill great stuff! I read that Mr. Flipetti used no comps on the drums on his last korn album, and for that reason I've been investing in pres rather than comps as of late and I totally agree that compression can change the tone the only down side is taming it in the mix
How is the Cib for guitars, comp wise that is? I don't have alot of comps right now, what do you use for rock guitars pre/comp wise?
Thanks
danielheh
Old 10th December 2002
  #25
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davemc's Avatar
 

For distorted guitars, they are normally really compressed anyhow. So I normally use a comp for color more then compression...
Old 10th December 2002
  #26
Quote:
Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
Thrill great stuff! I read that Mr. Flipetti used no comps on the drums on his last korn album, and for that reason I've been investing in pres rather than comps as of late and I totally agree that compression can change the tone the only down side is taming it in the mix
How is the Cib for guitars, comp wise that is? I don't have alot of comps right now, what do you use for rock guitars pre/comp wise?
Thanks
danielheh
Hi Daniel,

You welcome.

You know you might be asking the wrong guy about tracking stuff(I haven't tracked any real instruments in years(96'), except for vocals and the occasional "token"acoustic guitars). I have no desire to track or record, so i am not in the trenches like the other guys here.

I sold my mic collection long ago(also some pieces were stolen dammit).

My mic pre's I 've been selling off little by little(since I don't track anymore what's the use of having them around collecting dust). I've kept a pair of Neve 1081's that I use in mixing and a Amek CIB. I am also about to add a Martech MSS10 which I've always liked for vocals(also it looks cool,its easier to carry and impresses my female clients).
heh

I've been itching to check out the Viper, but haven't got around to it yet.

I've kinda done the opposite of you and have kept my comps and EQ's.

I really love the CIB when mixing rock guitars and bass. The EQ's character lends itself well for electric instruments. Its not as thick as a Neve, but sometimes this blends better in the mix.

For electric guitar compression there are a couple that i tend to lean on. My favorites are: Neve 32264a,La3a,Distressor, and a little known compressor which has become my favorite for kick and bass subs, the VU limited EX2 from the 80's. It sounds like a Alan Smart but thicker. It really brings out the "cool" element of the signals.

I hope this helps some.

Peace.
Old 10th December 2002
  #27
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
Thrill great stuff! I read that Mr. Flipetti used no comps on the drums on his last korn album, and for that reason I've been investing in pres rather than comps as of late and I totally agree that compression can change the tone the only down side is taming it in the mix
danielheh
Give almost ALL the credit to anything you like on the Korn record to Andy Wallace not Flipetti. Petti is fine and maybe even does deserve a couple grammy noms, but he did NOT come with it on this Korn record. (damn bastards locked out one of my favorite rooms of the Village Recorder for way too long any damn way!, and between them and Guns N Roses, DAMMIT ANYWAY!!!) I digress. (Village Recorder is great) I heard his finals and they, well, sounded like roughs. (I assure you they weren't)... I admire the "let's try no compression" or something different, but I swear to god, if you could A/B the final mixes... (even though I don't know for a fact that Mr. Wallace didn't use compression, but, on the Korn record, I think we can all hear it) O-kay, that's enough sentence fragments for one night.
Old 11th December 2002
  #28
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor

I sold my mic collection long ago(also some pieces were stolen dammit).

My mic pre's I 've been selling off little by little(since I don't track anymore what's the use of having them around collecting dust). I've kept a pair of Neve 1081's that I use in mixing and a Amek CIB. I am also about to add a Martech MSS10 which I've always liked for vocals(also it looks cool,its easier to carry and impresses my female clients).
heh

I've been itching to check out the Viper, but haven't got around to it yet.

I've kinda done the opposite of you and have kept my comps and EQ's.
I really love the CIB when mixing rock guitars and bass. The EQ's character lends itself well for electric instruments. Its not as thick as a Neve, but sometimes this blends better in the mix.

For electric guitar compression there are a couple that i tend to lean on. My favorites are: Neve 32264a,La3a,Distressor, and a little known compressor which has become my favorite for kick and bass subs, the VU limited EX2 from the 80's. It sounds like a Alan Smart but thicker. It really brings out the "cool" element of the signals.
I hope this helps some.
Peace.
Thrill thanks again for the great info, sorry to hear about the theftgrudge MOst of the time I'm recording really quick demos but I've been trying assemble a collection of good stuff for the few people who care and will pay to do a good recording.
I have a band coming in with 3 songs and they're giving me 30 hours to record and mix(I'll probably throw in another 10 hours on my own) so I get to stretch out a little. I'm trying out 4 flavors of the osa pres right now, pretty cool! I have a vipre, I think I like
but don't yet know how much. The amek sounds like a multipurpose box that I'd like to try,thanks
Daniel
Old 11th December 2002
  #29
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
Give almost ALL the credit to anything you like on the Korn record to Andy Wallace not Flipetti. Petti is fine and maybe even does deserve a couple grammy noms, but he did NOT come with it on this Korn record. (damn bastards locked out one of my favorite rooms of the Village Recorder for way too long any damn way!, and between them and Guns N Roses, DAMMIT ANYWAY!!!) I digress. (Village Recorder is great) I heard his finals and they, well, sounded like roughs. (I assure you they weren't)... I admire the "let's try no compression" or something different, but I swear to god, if you could A/B the final mixes... (even though I don't know for a fact that Mr. Wallace didn't use compression, but, on the Korn record, I think we can all hear it) O-kay, that's enough sentence fragments for one night.
E-cue, I don't own the album yet, but am going to get it, just for researchrollz I think the article stated that there were no comps used in tracking the drums but I think your right about the mix being comped. I'm way out of the big time, the big money and have to buy all this gear myself so I was pretty psyched about this way of working. Hey I would love to have all the toys but this allowed me to get some great pres and mics
I don't know if its for everyone but does allow you focus on the sound of the drums, mic position and pre selection.
I have to work very fast for almost no money but I am one of ----------maybe-- 20 people in the State of maine who get to do music full time so I would do it for free if someone would buy my gearyuktyy Peace
Daniel
Old 15th December 2002
  #30
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I know this is late for this thread but I just wanted to swing you back to the Avalons.

My two 737s have just finished a six week mix and were used on just about everything. Sure the comp is slow but I find that useful anyway and surely FAST is what plug-ins are for. I follow the 737s with TC/Waves plugs in ProTools.

Hope you make the right decision!

Peter
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