The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Anyone using a C12 for vocals? Condenser Microphones
Old 13th May 2016
  #181
Lives for gear
 

... but other parties can get really close.

The tube is still available.
The transformer is still being made. (!)
Tim Campbell makes a superb copy of the capsule, including its variance through the years. (!)
The bodies are available. (Flea, AMI)
Add some fine, vintage (style) electronics and you should be as close as current "AKG" could ever possibly get.
Old 13th May 2016
  #182
Quote:
Originally Posted by legato View Post
Tim Campbell makes a superb copy of the capsule, including its variance through the years. (!)
I have a UM25c with the CT-12 in it -- and it shatters my brain constantly on vocals…I also tend to use this mic on acoustic guitar and a mono drum overhead. It sounds pretty giant on acoustic guitar. I think I need to send Tim a thank you letter. I'd like to buy him a beer, or a cup of coffee, depending on what he likes…
Old 14th May 2016
  #183
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

Got 3 of Tim's capsules: 1 in my old 414 eb & 2 in a pair of C12/251 hybrid builds.
Just a religious, glorious sound. Silky top & plenty of bottom - more of a scooped sound compared to my neumanns & that sumptuous, expensive, Angels-singing top end!! Man!
Super stoked with Tim's work! He's a clever, clever lad! It really is amazing & awesome that someone is doing what he's doing to keep that glorious & rarified sound alive! Kinda like if someone was making vf14's or D12 capsules out of their work-shop. You gotta get in on it while you can i reckon.
Old 14th May 2016
  #184
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

I've got 4 of Tim's capsules, i have one in a heavily modded K2, sounds really great in a modern transformerless kinda way, and one in a tweaked C12 clone, the C12 has a 5 star GE 6072, AMI T-14, a paper in oil output cap, and some fancy polystyrenes throughout, it's fantastic sounding, the Paper/oil gives it just enough classic vibe to be dangerous, a fantastic mic.

the other 2 capsules await an Elam clone build, and once i hear that, i will decide if I make a second for a pair of Elams, or another C12 for a pair.
Old 14th May 2016
  #185
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 

The ones David Bock uses in his builds, and the Lucas mics, are very very close in sound to the vintage CK12.
Old 15th May 2016
  #186
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeyeYguy View Post
I've got 4 of Tim's capsules, i have one in a heavily modded K2, sounds really great in a modern transformerless kinda way, and one in a tweaked C12 clone, the C12 has a 5 star GE 6072, AMI T-14, a paper in oil output cap, and some fancy polystyrenes throughout, it's fantastic sounding, the Paper/oil gives it just enough classic vibe to be dangerous, a fantastic mic.

the other 2 capsules await an Elam clone build, and once i hear that, i will decide if I make a second for a pair of Elams, or another C12 for a pair.
Interesting! I have PIO's as the "tone caps" in my C12/251 mics. I bought a heap of different caps to try; different values (220 all the way up to 1000pf) & different types then a dropped them in & out & did listening tests. 220 to 470 were just way too subtle for me - an 820 silver mica sounded like a blanket had been dropped over the mic so I popped the 1000pf PIO in expecting it to be shockingly dull.....it was incredible! Just enough roll off to soften the S's a tiny bit but still a hifi exciting top, just silkier than the usual "top end for days" CK12 sound.
It was amazing how different they all sounded & behaved. 1000pf is huge - compared to the original ELA M (100 or 220pf; can't remember which!) but the wanky voodoo that you hear some folks attribute to PIO's I think is justified - at least for me and those mics! Magic combo!

What value did you use?
Old 15th May 2016
  #187
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
Interesting! I have PIO's as the "tone caps" in my C12/251 mics. I bought a heap of different caps to try; different values (220 all the way up to 1000pf) & different types then a dropped them in & out & did listening tests. 220 to 470 were just way too subtle for me - an 820 silver mica sounded like a blanket had been dropped over the mic so I popped the 1000pf PIO in expecting it to be shockingly dull.....it was incredible! Just enough roll off to soften the S's a tiny bit but still a hifi exciting top, just silkier than the usual "top end for days" CK12 sound.
It was amazing how different they all sounded & behaved. 1000pf is huge - compared to the original ELA M (100 or 220pf; can't remember which!) but the wanky voodoo that you hear some folks attribute to PIO's I think is justified - at least for me and those mics! Magic combo!

What value did you use?
we are talking about the output cap... right? I used .47, i think the schemo calls for a .5uf if I remember correctly? the 1uf seems surprising, what's the bottom like?
Old 15th May 2016
  #188
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

I don't think the bottom is affected. The 1000 was indeed VERY surprising!
The west cap PIOs I found must have a super gentle roll-off.
I read a post from one of the pcb designers on one of the DIY forums that he liked a 1000 too - he said the roll off comes down to around 7-8k and his 251 suddenly starts sounding more U47'ish.
His words not mine.
Mine sound in no way neumannesque (I have a U87 & U67 & km84s but no U47 unfortunately but I know the vibe very well). It still sounds C12'ish but I don't need to patch in a de-esser like I usually do with these brass cap'ed mics. Softer and super smooth top but still sounds really exciting.
Anyway....sorry for the tangent....I just saw your comment and had to ask!

Another tangent: an analogy: I think the neumanns are hard-working tradesmen, they work so well, superb at what they do and can do pretty much do everything .....meanwhile the AKG/251 brass caps are more like super-models, definitely female, dressed up to the nines - a little more temperamental but the sex is amazing! haha!
Old 15th May 2016
  #189
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
I don't think the bottom is affected. The 1000 was indeed VERY surprising!
The west cap PIOs I found must have a super gentle roll-off.
I read a post from one of the pcb designers on one of the DIY forums that he liked a 1000 too - he said the roll off comes down to around 7-8k and his 251 suddenly starts sounding more U47'ish.
His words not mine.
Mine sound in no way neumannesque (I have a U87 & U67 & km84s but no U47 unfortunately but I know the vibe very well). It still sounds C12'ish but I don't need to patch in a de-esser like I usually do with these brass cap'ed mics. Softer and super smooth top but still sounds really exciting.
Anyway....sorry for the tangent....I just saw your comment and had to ask!

Another tangent: an analogy: I think the neumanns are hard-working tradesmen, they work so well, superb at what they do and can do pretty much do everything .....meanwhile the AKG/251 brass caps are more like super-models, definitely female, dressed up to the nines - a little more temperamental but the sex is amazing! haha!
couldn't have said it better myself, when they're used together, it's like they're one of those athlete/supermodel couples haha, you've got me intrigued as to the 1uf, i must give it a whirl, thanx!
Old 15th May 2016
  #190
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeyeYguy View Post
we are talking about the output cap... right? I used .47, i think the schemo calls for a .5uf if I remember correctly? the 1uf seems surprising, what's the bottom like?
....btw my 2nd fav was a 470pf silver mica.
Where did you find a .47 PIO?
Old 16th May 2016
  #191
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
....btw my 2nd fav was a 470pf silver mica.
Where did you find a .47 PIO?
had it in my pile of old caps from guitar amps and what not...
Old 16th May 2016
  #192
Lives for gear
 
Matt Nolan's Avatar
 

Roger and DeyeYguy, you two are definitely talking about different capacitor positions. Could we get some clarity here please?

It sounds to me like DeyeYguy is talking about the output coupling capacitor in a C12 (or 251) and Roger is talking about the output HF roll-off capacitor (only present in the 251, not in the C12).
Old 16th May 2016
  #193
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

Yes Matt. Sorry! You're right!
Different caps!
Old 16th May 2016
  #194
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Thanx for clarifying Matt, I was intending to see the C12 schemo after reading that from our good man Roger, i didn't remember where a 1uf was even feasible, i'll have to try that in the Elam clone i'm building though....
Old 16th May 2016
  #195
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
....btw my 2nd fav was a 470pf silver mica.
Where did you find a .47 PIO?
Hey Roger, i'm assuming you're talking about the 400uf cap on the original elam schemo? Thanx man!
Attached Thumbnails
Anyone using a C12 for vocals?-screen-shot-2016-05-16-6.55.24-am.jpg  
Old 16th May 2016
  #196
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

sorry for the derail guys, i should add that i've heard C12's that are quite spitty, and others that are smooth in the sibs, obviously the ones that are smooth in the sib range will be much more usable as a vox mic, my C12 clone is smooth in that range and would work on certain singers in certain musical environments, i do think that all C12's in good repair are sitting on the edge of spitty... if that makes sense...
Old 16th May 2016
  #197
Only experience I have is a very brief demo of an emulation of the C12 and I was still floored. The open high end is so clear and yet the signal was still so full and round. It was awesome! I can only imagine how great the realest deal is
Old 16th May 2016
  #198
Lives for gear
 
127Riot's Avatar
 

Flea-12

This past week I used a flea 12 on a male singer that I have used the F-47 for in the past, I prefer the F-12 for his voice, it does have a good low end and the mid to top is really good. Sits really well in the tracks. pop rock/emo'ish type volcals almost like a Blink 182 type.
Attached Thumbnails
Anyone using a C12 for vocals?-image.jpg  
Old 16th May 2016
  #199
Lives for gear
 
roger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeyeYguy View Post
Hey Roger, i'm assuming you're talking about the 400uf cap on the original elam schemo? Thanx man!
Yes - I believe so but I've seen other schematics (variations or bastardised perhaps?!) with 100 & 220pf caps there.
My mics are essentially C12s (plate follower) but with the tone caps to roll off the highs like the ELA - which of course was done at telefunken's request to sound more U47'ish for the broadcast market.
I thought it would be fun/interesting to experiment & I was right!
Roll off the top to taste.
Sorry man - you were talking about the output cap! I thought you were getting your uf/pf's mixed up - but I was on another planet altogether! Haha!
Did you experiment with other cap types or did you go straight for PIO?
Old 16th May 2016
  #200
Gear Nut
 
DeyeYguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger View Post
Yes - I believe so but I've seen other schematics (variations or bastardised perhaps?!) with 100 & 220pf caps there.
My mics are essentially C12s (plate follower) but with the tone caps to roll off the highs like the ELA - which of course was done at telefunken's request to sound more U47'ish for the broadcast market.
I thought it would be fun/interesting to experiment & I was right!
Roll off the top to taste.
Sorry man - you were talking about the output cap! I thought you were getting your uf/pf's mixed up - but I was on another planet altogether! Haha!
Did you experiment with other cap types or did you go straight for PIO?
I tried whatever I had laying around in that range, i still have 2 more on my list, a high end polyprop and an old school wet tantalum, should be interesting, i'll post up when i get around to it, thanx again for the tip on the elam roll off

edit; i should also add that, the PIO cap took some breaking in, i left the mic on in front of speakers for days, the caps definitely broke in and the mic bloomed, i didn't even like the sound at all when i first fired it up, ymmv
Old 16th May 2016
  #201
Engagement Manager
 
Sniperschool's Avatar
I'm a really big fan of C12's on male vocals these days which I never previously was
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
malekmusic / So Much Gear, So Little Time
11
Spook / So Much Gear, So Little Time
29
junya-eskimo / High End
24
illacov / Rap + Hip Hop Engineering and Production
16
Bernard / Q+A with Charles Dye
12

Forum Jump
Forum Jump