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HEDD or 2192 Digital Converters
Old 9th September 2007
  #1
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HEDD or 2192

Which is more analog sounding?
Old 9th September 2007
  #2
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Do you mean which one sounds closer to the analog signal?
Or do you mean which one makes things sound more saturated in a nice way?

I haven't directly compared the two however IMO the Hedd does sound great if you want to add colour that isn't present in the original signal. It can be subtle or obvious depending on your preference which i think is very important as it makes the unit more flexible and worth having.

I wouldn't say either unit would be the most transparent (nearest to analog signal) sounding AD you could get.

Old 9th September 2007
  #3
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Soldier777c's Avatar
 

The 2192 adds a definited color as well . . . if you're looking for a very analog-oriented warmth and smoothness, this would be a good choice . . . plus as you push into the headroom of the converter, there is this sort of pleasant imaging characteristic that seems to take place (it's hard to explain). It was well worth the money.

The HEDD is a good box as well. I've only used it a couple of times, but both times it sounded nice.
Old 9th September 2007
  #4
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
I own both,
But mix thru the Hedd
Old 9th September 2007
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler View Post
I own both,
But mix thru the Hedd
Okay so why is that? Is it the precess features of the HEDD? If you keep the process knobs on 0 how do the two sets of converters stack up side by side....

Come on now.... don't leave your boys hanging here this is a question that I think allot of folks have.



Got any samples you can post for us?
Old 9th September 2007
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
Do you mean which one sounds closer to the analog signal?
Or do you mean which one makes things sound more saturated in a nice way?
thx guys

I guess I'm curious which one sounds more saturated like tape.
I have read that both of them do. I guess ultimately which one
is the least 'digital' sounding. splitting hairs but I'm just curious

I only have 3k so I can only get 1. Also how do these units sound
up against the radar classic converters?


thx again!!
Old 11th September 2007
  #7
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bump
Old 11th September 2007
  #8
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
I wouldn't say either unit would be the most transparent (nearest to analog signal) sounding AD you could get.

Why wouldn't you say? I've done the shootouts of the HEDD A/D (DSP effect bypassed) and I feel it is an EXTREMELY transparent A/D, one of the best out there, regardless of price. The HEDD is not a "bargain A/D" attached to a "bargain D/A" and a DSP effects box. It is truly an "excellent A/D" "excellent D/A" and "excellent DSP box".

You would have to move up to something on the order a Weiss or Lavry Gold-style set of converters to better that which is in the current HEDD-192. And that would be an incremental, not a radical improvement in my opinion. (HEDD circa 2006-2007 version, as there have been several iterations of the converter modules).

I recently did a shootout of the excellent Benchmark ADC-1 against the HEDD A/D using 1/2" analog tape sources, and the two were indistinguishable to my ears.
Old 11th September 2007
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Why wouldn't you say? I've done the shootouts of the HEDD A/D (DSP effect bypassed) and I feel it is an EXTREMELY transparent A/D, one of the best out there, regardless of price. The HEDD is not a "bargain A/D" attached to a "bargain D/A" and a DSP effects box. It is truly an "excellent A/D" "excellent D/A" and "excellent DSP box".

You would have to move up to something on the order a Weiss or Lavry Gold-style set of converters to better that which is in the current HEDD-192. And that would be an incremental, not a radical improvement in my opinion. (HEDD circa 2006-2007 version, as there have been several iterations of the converter modules).

I recently did a shootout of the excellent Benchmark ADC-1 against the HEDD A/D using 1/2" analog tape sources, and the two were indistinguishable to my ears.
Hey Bob. So you ever try the 2192?
Old 11th September 2007
  #10
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
Hey Bob. So you ever try the 2192?
No, I haven't. It certainly has developed a nice underground reputation. But I have not heard any feedback from fellow mastering engineers about the converter. All the buzz about the 2192 has come from mixing engineers.

BK
Old 11th September 2007
  #11
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
I guess I'm curious which one sounds more saturated like tape.
Well if you turn the "TAPE" knob up on the HEDD-192 to far it'll sound very much like "saturated tape"... if you just turn it up a little bit you get some very nice, very musical "tape like" characteristics... I don't know what Dave based his 'tape emulation' upon but that knob always sounded like an Ampex MM-1200 running 456 with a 3db>250nWb/m alignment to me... but as always, YMMV.

Peace.
Old 11th September 2007
  #12
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob katz View Post
Why wouldn't you say? I've done the shootouts of the HEDD A/D (DSP effect bypassed) and I feel it is an EXTREMELY transparent A/D, one of the best out there, regardless of price. The HEDD is not a "bargain A/D" attached to a "bargain D/A" and a DSP effects box. It is truly an "excellent A/D" "excellent D/A" and "excellent DSP box".

You would have to move up to something on the order a Weiss or Lavry Gold-style set of converters to better that which is in the current HEDD-192. And that would be an incremental, not a radical improvement in my opinion. (HEDD circa 2006-2007 version, as there have been several iterations of the converter modules).

I recently did a shootout of the excellent Benchmark ADC-1 against the HEDD A/D using 1/2" analog tape sources, and the two were indistinguishable to my ears.
When i had the Hedd down here i was directly comparing it to both Lavry Gold & Blue AD, and Blue DA.

I really liked the sound of the colour controls on the Hedd however i found that the AD conversion was not as transparent as the Lavry units.

There were also noticeable differences when clipping.

Old 11th September 2007
  #13
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
There were also noticeable differences when clipping.
Maybe I missed class that day... but isn't clipping to be avoided?
Old 11th September 2007
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Maybe I missed class that day... but isn't clipping to be avoided?
Hey Fletcher, Can you compare the Radar Classic Converters to
the Hedd as far as which sounds more like analog tape?


thx
Old 11th September 2007
  #15
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Maybe I missed class that day... but isn't clipping to be avoided?
Clipping the AD converter, is a contraversial subject indeed, i would ascociate it more with mastering although i do also know some mix engineers who do it when printing the final mix.

I guess generally the reason why most people do it is to get the signal as hot as they possibly can, although there are those who like the sound of the clipping.

Depending on your AD converter the harmonics produced durring clipping will sound different, and some converters can tolerate harder clipping than others before audible distortion occurs.

Old 11th September 2007
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
Clipping the AD converter, is a contraversial subject indeed, i would ascociate it more with mastering although i do also know some mix engineers who do it when printing the final mix.

I guess generally the reason why most people do it is to get the signal as hot as they possibly can, although there are those who like the sound of the clipping.

Depending on your AD converter the harmonics produced durring clipping will sound different, and some converters can tolerate harder clipping than others before audible distortion occurs.

I think Fletcher knows what clipping converters is all about... I am pretty sure it was his sarcastic side coming out and that he was making the point about his stance on clipping converters. But I could be wrong.
Old 11th September 2007
  #17
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Fletcher...sarcastic...nooooo
Old 11th September 2007
  #18
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Soldier777c's Avatar
 

Clipping in pro audio is like clipping in pro football . . . if you can get away with it without anyone noticing, great!!!
Old 11th September 2007
  #19
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
...i do also know some mix engineers who do it (clip converters) when printing the final mix....
So THAT'S why I occasionally hear horrible crackling on some modern productions!



Quote:
...the reason why most people do it is to get the signal as hot as they possibly can, although there are those who like the sound of the clipping.
tutt

I've never heard ANY digital clipping that had any level of even remotely pleasant sonics. This is a new one on me. Or am I just behind the times???

However I have indeed heard quite a few finished mastered products that had the horrible sound of unpleasant digital clipping on them and I honestly cannot understand WHY this is? Who's doing this work anyway? Doesn't anyone HEAR the highly offensive crunching and crackling? I boggles the mind. We really DO NEED "audio police" to come and arrest those who commit such audio offenses. There's really no excuse other than not having ears.

Sorry if I sound brash, but I recently heard several finished products that had noticeable digital clipping sounds and I find it very highly offensive, as a music listener as well as an audio engineer.

Are there really any converters out there that sound GOOD when clipped??? I will try to be open minded, but... there IS a REASON why some final products crunch and crackle in a sickening way, and I have to wonder if this is why... perhaps some people are purposely clipping converters because they heard it's a cool thing to do and meanwhile they do not / cannot detect the horrible resulting audio offense???

Old 11th September 2007
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 666666 View Post

Are there really any converters out there that sound GOOD when clipped???
The Lavry Gold.... but it's not just the "converter" getting clipped in this instance.

Quote:
I will try to be open minded, but... there IS a REASON why some final products crunch and crackle in a sickening way, and I have to wonder if this is why... perhaps some people are purposely clipping converters because they heard it's a cool thing to do and meanwhile they do not / cannot detect the horrible resulting audio offense???

The problem is the Lavry Gold does sound pretty good when clipped. The "problem" part comes from people reading about EM's clipping Golds and thinking they can use any old converter to push the input and it will sound like the Lavry Gold..... it won't.....
Old 11th September 2007
  #21
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
The Lavry Gold.... but it's not just the "converter" getting clipped in this instance....The problem is the Lavry Gold does sound pretty good when clipped. The "problem" part comes from people reading about EM's clipping Golds and thinking they can use any old converter to push the input and it will sound like the Lavry Gold..... it won't.....
Thanks. Though I have not yet used a Lavry Gold, this answer sounds very plausible.
Old 12th September 2007
  #22
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

I was in the market for one of these two boxes just a few months ago and went with the HEDD because it does more things for just a little more money.

The fact that the converters are clean --maybe not quite the same as a 21****- AND I can dial-in any combination of the three DSP effects makes the HEDD far more useful day in and day out.

I let a good friend play with mine recently -- a real tube/tape junkie with a good ear. Now he can't wait to get his own.
Old 27th September 2007
  #23
So anyone else have any input?

The HEDD and the 2192 are pretty close in price and I am on the fence as to which one to get.

I am not really concerned with the process features of the HEDD, they sound GREAT but I have other tools to get the same types of sounds. I am really talking about the conversion of each unit and the overall vibe when talking apples to apples (2192 vs. HEDD without processing)...

Thanks.
Old 27th September 2007
  #24
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crypticglobe's Avatar
I would disagree that the 2192 is "colored". To me it is simply more natural and accurate than anything else out there. Simply amazing converters Certainly, it does have an "effect" when you drive it harder than would normally be suggested, and I find this effect very nice for certain things. UA and others attribute this to the all "Class A" design of the analog circuitry in the 2192.

The converters in the HEDD are also excellent (I prefer the 2192's converters slightly), but the tape and distortion effects in the HEDD are amazing. REALLY, really good. You will not get a "pushed tape" effect from the 2192, but you DEFINITELY can get that from the HEDD.

The only real slutty thing to do is to get the 2192 for the converters and the HEDD for tape/distortion. I am halfway to that combo myself for that VERY reason.

jmtc of course...
Old 27th September 2007
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe View Post
I would disagree that the 2192 is "colored". To me it is simply more natural and accurate than anything else out there. Simply amazing converters Certainly, it does have an "effect" when you drive it harder than would normally be suggested, and I find this effect very nice for certain things. UA and others attribute this to the all "Class A" design of the analog circuitry in the 2192.

The converters in the HEDD are also excellent (I prefer the 2192's converters slightly), but the tape and distortion effects in the HEDD are amazing. REALLY, really good. You will not get a "pushed tape" effect from the 2192, but you DEFINITELY can get that from the HEDD.

The only real slutty thing to do is to get the 2192 for the converters and the HEDD for tape/distortion. I am halfway to that combo myself for that VERY reason.

jmtc of course...
thumbsup

Thanks man...

So I jhad a HEDD 192 a few years back and I LOVED it. I only sold it because I needed more I/O so I bought an AD-DA16X combo.

Anyway, I also have a Portico tape thingy that sounds great so I am happy with my "tape / distortion" options.

The converters on the HEDD were GREAT back then but I am just wonering if the 2192 converters are as good or maybe a little better. The 2192 is a little less $ and if the conversion is just as good (or better as you imply) then I might just go that route.
Old 27th September 2007
  #26
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I can't comment on the Hedd but as far as mastering engs opinion on the 2192 I have some experience.
I had Nancy Matter (Moonlight Mastering) master a 4 song EP. I brought my own rig with both the 2192 and the Benchmark DAC-1 for DA playback into her Manely gear. We started with the 2192 and changed it for the DAC-1. Within 5 seconds Nancy asked me to patch the 2192 back in. She thought the DAC-1 was harder and maybe a little pinched sounding in comparison. Overall she thought the 2192 sounded more natural. I've always felt the same. Had a smililar experience a few years ago when Billy Stull did some country for me. For the most part I've been using the DAC-1 for headphones.
Old 27th September 2007
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyd View Post
I can't comment on the Hedd but as far as mastering engs opinion on the 2192 I have some experience.
I had Nancy Matter (Moonlight Mastering) master a 4 song EP. I brought my own rig with both the 2192 and the Benchmark DAC-1 for DA palyback into her Manely gear. We started with the 2192 and changed it for the DAC-1. Within 5 seconds Nancy asked me to patch the 2192 back in. She thought the DAC-1 was harder and maybe a little pinched sounding in comparison. Overall she thought the 2192 sounded more natural. I've always felt the same. Had a smililar experience a few years ago when Billy Stull did some country for me. For the most part I've been using the DAC-1 for headphones.
Okay so I have to ask.... why did you have to bring your gear to the mastering house? Not calling her or the place out because I don't know anything about them but... shouldn't they have the gear to do the mastering job there already if they are a mastering house?

heh

Also, if they already had gear there what did she think about the 2192 compared to her usual set up and what was the "usual" setup?
Old 27th September 2007
  #28
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First of all Nancy is great and did a killer job. The reason I brought my rig is that she uses Sonic Solutions on a Mac with the Lucid 8824 which does not do higher sample rates. My masters are 88.2K and I don't like the sound of sample rate conversion. It was the same with Billy Stull. She'll eventually upgrade but for whatever reason hasn't felt the need to upgrade up for now. I wanted to work with her and since she goes analog first I wanted her to master 88.2k files. No big deal. The masters sound like the mixes just better and I couldn't be happier. First mastering job in quite a while where I wasn't disappointed.
Old 27th September 2007
  #29
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On the second question, she didn't comment. She just got to work, popping a song every 20 mins at most.
Old 27th September 2007
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyd View Post
On the second question, she didn't comment. She just got to work, popping a song every 20 mins at most.
thumbsup

Thanks Kelly...
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