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Telefunken Ela M 260 mic Condenser Microphones
Old 8th September 2007
  #1
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Telefunken Ela M 260 mic

who knows anything about this mic? it was produced by akg at the same time as the 251, but it's a small diaphram tube condenser--possibly similar to the km-54?? big mystery mic!
Old 9th September 2007
  #2
mas
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Hi,

yes, the ELA M 260 was made by AKG. It is based on the Telefunken AC701 tube. The capsule is basically the same as the AKG CK28 which was used with the C28 and the C60 => AKG's CK26 & CK28 capsules
The powersupply is the same as with the ELA M 250/251, the M 950.

I speculate that the ELA M 260 is closely related to the C60, (maybe even more so than the ELA M 251E is related to the C12.) But while the C60´s output transformer is located in the PSU, the transformer of the ELA M 260 has to be in the mic body as it uses the M 950 PSU.
With a housing diameter of only approx. 17,5 mm it´s even a bit slimmer than a C451.

Telefunken USA offers a model that confusingly is also called ELA M 260, but it seems to have not too much in common with the real one. According to their website, they use a different tube (EF732) and different capsules (original AKG capsules don´t fit), and most likely a different transformer = different mic.

Attached are pictures of an original ELA M 260. (sorry for the bad image quality)
Attached Thumbnails
Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-ela-m-260.jpg   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-elams.jpg   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-m260_zoom.jpg   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-advert-m260-m261.gif   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-body-diameter.jpg  

Old 10th September 2007
  #3
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T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mas View Post
different capsules (original AKG capsules don´t fit)
Quite the contrary. Original AKG capsules do indeed fit on our Ela M 260, along with other capsules from Blue and JZ/Violet. However, they require a special adaptor in order to do so, but the adaptor is included so it's not a big deal. Feel free to ask any other questions and I'll gladly answer them as best as I can.
Old 10th September 2007
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telefunken USA View Post
Quite the contrary. Original AKG capsules do indeed fit on our Ela M 260, along with other capsules from Blue and JZ/Violet. However, they require a special adaptor in order to do so, but the adaptor is included so it's not a big deal.
Old 10th September 2007
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telefunken USA View Post
Quite the contrary. Original AKG capsules do indeed fit on our Ela M 260, along with other capsules from Blue and JZ/Violet. However, they require a special adaptor in order to do so, but the adaptor is included so it's not a big deal. Feel free to ask any other questions and I'll gladly answer them as best as I can.
Hi Ian,

How much do a pair of Ela M 260's run? I didn't even know that they were shipping.

Thanks!
-G
Old 10th September 2007
  #6
mas
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mas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telefunken USA View Post
Quite the contrary. Original AKG capsules do indeed fit on our Ela M 260, along with other capsules from Blue and JZ/Violet. However, they require a special adaptor in order to do so, but the adaptor is included so it's not a big deal. Feel free to ask any other questions and I'll gladly answer them as best as I can.
Yes I noticed that an adaptor has to be used, but you can even mount a M7 on a C451 with the appropriate adaptor, so what?
I wonder why the mic is designated "ELA M 260" when it differs that much from the original. I thought the "Telefunken" badged mics were "built to a standard not to a price"... Therefore I expected a similar attention to detail as it was put in the reverse engineering of the 250/251´s, ect. But it seems that several compromises were made in the making of this mic to the point that it also differs in appearance compared to the real thing, and I doubt that (any) parts are interchangeable with the original for repair/restauration purposes.
True, few people know the original mic, but does that mean that it can be altered and still be sold as a correct recreation of the real thing?

However, it is great that an adaptor is included, but the current package probably shouldn´t be sold as "ELA M 260" with respect to the historic mic.
Of course, I don´t want to say that your interpretation of the mic cannot sound great in it´s own right. But it reminds me a bit of the C12 vs. C12VR thing, with all the unpleasant vibe associated.

Why not paint the housing like your beautiful AK47 and put it in your R-F-T line (perhaps as AK 26), where you already have an EF732 equipped mic. AFAIK even the price would fit, so wouldn´t that be a great idea?
And such nitpickers like me wouldn´t have anything to argue anymore heh.

Best regards,
Old 10th September 2007
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mas View Post
Yes I noticed that an adaptor has to be used, but you can even mount a M7 on a C451 with the appropriate adapter, so what?
I wonder why the mic is designated "ELA M 260" when it differs that much from the original. I thought the "Telefunken" badged mics were "built to a standard not to a price"... Therefore I expected a similar attention to detail as it was put in the reverse engineering of the 250/251´s, ect. But it seems that several compromises were made in the making of this mic to the point that it also differs in appearance compared to the real thing, and I doubt that (any) parts are interchangeable with the original for repair/restauration purposes.

Of course it is great that an adaptor is included. However, the current package probably shouldn´t be sold as "ELA M 260" with respect to the historic mic.
Of course, I don´t want to say that your interpretation of the mic cannot sound great in it´s own right. But it reminds me a bit of the C12 vs. C12VR thing, with all the negative vibe associated.

Why not paint the housing like the beautiful AK47 and put it in your R-F-T line (perhaps as AK 26), where you already have a EF732 equipped mic. AFAIK even the price would fit, so wouldn´t that be a great idea?
And such nitpickers like me wouldn´t have anything to argue anymore heh.

Best regards,
Whether or not the capsules fit via an adaptor is irrelevent. The point is that they can be used.
Old 11th September 2007
  #8
mas
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BTW, there´s already a thread about this mic from fall 2006:

Ela M 260 ?
Old 11th September 2007
  #9
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Amadeuz's Avatar
 

NAME...

Yep, I agree that the label ELA M260 makes as much of a strong statement as Tele USAs promise of faithful reproductions, thus raising the expectations of characters like Mas, and me.

Since I see no point in debating on "good" or "bad" terms and Mas was brave enough as to offer the RFT suggestion here goes my $0.2 pesos:

Ian, place your current model on the "professional" (entry line) catalog and call it ELA M260N (as per say) and make an ELA M260V with an original AKG capsule, AC701 tube, and appropriate power supply. Now, considering the odds this will probably turn out to be a $3500 mic, so expect something around 2 orders (likely to be from a Japanese Magnate), BUT your achievement will be complete, and expectations met towards the standard of your company.

After all:
We are in the business of "CREDIBILITY"

All the best,
A
Old 11th September 2007
  #10
mas
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Capsule

Encouraged from Saturn sound´s description, I finally decided to open one of my AKG CK28´s myself.
I too was seriously impressed by the incredible precision of the parts. The innards of the CK1 look pretty cheap in comparison.
The way the diaphragm is fitted is also different. It reminds me of the skin of an archtop-banjo.
Attached Thumbnails
Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-diaphragm-kl.jpg  
Old 11th September 2007
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeuz View Post
Yep, I agree that the label ELA M260 makes as much of a strong statement as Tele USAs promise of faithful reproductions, thus raising the expectations of characters like Mas, and me.

Since I see no point in debating on "good" or "bad" terms and Mas was brave enough as to offer the RFT suggestion here goes my $0.2 pesos:

Ian, place your current model on the "professional" (entry line) catalog and call it ELA M260N (as per say) and make an ELA M260V with an original AKG capsule, AC701 tube, and appropriate power supply. Now, considering the odds this will probably turn out to be a $3500 mic, so expect something around 2 orders (likely to be from a Japanese Magnate), BUT your achievement will be complete, and expectations met towards the standard of your company.

After all:
We are in the business of "CREDIBILITY"

All the best,
A
Actually, the Ela M 260 is in the "Professional line." Now, I can't say that I disagree with your comments about the name, but unfortunately, I don't make those decisions. In theory, it probably should be called the Ela M 260F, keeping in tradition with the rest of our professional series product line... but it's not.

As far as making a Ela M 260V with a vintage capsule and an AC701 tube historically correct, that's not a bad idea. However, it would have to sell for a lot more. AC701 tubes and CK28 capsules are hard to find in great condition, making them expensive, unreliable parts of the puzzle. But, it can be done.

Markus: Your debate about it's historical accuracy is not falling on deaf ears. Just think about this, we never actually say that it is a "historically accurate reproduction," nor do we say "built to exact historic specifications." Any one with a computer and a few free moments can figure that out, we are not trying to hide anything.

Our mics are built to a stardard, but what standard is it? Historic?... sometimes... but they are always built to a standard, OUR standard, the standard that we set before we take on a project. We stand firmly and completely behind all of our products. So go ahead and nitpick about a name, because it's just that: a name. Is it confusing? Maybe. However, perhaps in time, you'll get your wish.
Old 11th September 2007
  #12
mas
Gear Nut
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telefunken USA View Post
Markus: Your debate about it's historical accuracy is not falling on deaf ears. Just think about this, we never actually say that it is a "historically accurate reproduction," nor do we say "built to exact historic specifications." Any one with a computer and a few free moments can figure that out, we are not trying to hide anything.
Hi Ian,

thanks for clarifying that. That´s why I felt it appropriate to discriminate between the original and the current mic in my initial anwer to Travis´ post.

I think you agree that all other currently offered mics with the “ELA M” designation are meant to be faithful reinventions of original vintage models. So when I read on your website that “Telefunken | USA is pleased to announce the availability of the Ela M 260 microphone”, I assumed that almost everyone who reads that, automatically thinks that this mic is an similar exact reproduction of the (vintage) ELA M 260.

So from now on we have two different mics that are both referred to as the Telefunken ELA M 260. That means that one always has to ask if the original one is meant or not. As you have already put so much effort in convincing people that your current ELA M´s are basically identical to their historic counterparts, I thought that this may not be in your interest (therefore the suggestion with the R-F-T line).

As I try to provide as much information as I can on this subject, I´d like to add that the original ELA M 261 had a capsule with mechanical switchable patterns (which, to my current knowledge, was not an AKG design – I haven´t found any further information yet ). Whereas your current M261 capsule appears to have a fixed polar pattern and therefore shouldn´t be confused with the original one.

I´m glad that we could clarify that whole thing in such an elegant way.

All the best,
Old 11th September 2007
  #13
C/G
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mas View Post

I´m glad that we could clarify that whole thing in such an elegant way.

All the best,
That could be a first here on GS.

It sure is nice to see a polite debate not turn into a cat fight.
Old 12th September 2007
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mas View Post
I think you agree that all other currently offered mics with the “ELA M” designation are meant to be faithful reinventions of original vintage models. So when I read on your website that “Telefunken | USA is pleased to announce the availability of the Ela M 260 microphone”, I assumed that almost everyone who reads that, automatically thinks that this mic is an similar exact reproduction of the (vintage) ELA M 260.
Maybe in the future there will be a reproduction of the Ela M 260 and 261 that will be historically accurate. I don't foresee anything in the very near future, but who knows. Right now, we have other projects on our plate to deal with. I'll look around and find any other historic information about both the 260 and the 261. If I find any more about them then is already here, I'll post it up.
Old 12th September 2007
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

how much is 1 ela m 260?
Old 12th September 2007
  #16
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Meriphew's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telefunken USA View Post
Right now, we have other projects on our plate to deal with.
Has Tele USA looked in to doing a Tele U67?
Old 17th September 2007
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmacko View Post
Hi Ian,

How much do a pair of Ela M 260's run? I didn't even know that they were shipping.

Thanks!
-G
Sorry, I must have missed this one. The Ela M 260 goes for $1,495.00 each, so a pair would be $2,990.00.
Old 17th September 2007
  #18
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I cannot endorse Telefunken USA naming a microphone a name that refers to an *actual* microphone, when it is different than the real thing.

Whether intended or not, (of course if was intended, ) that policy is crafted to confuse.

Your microphone has nothing to do with a vintage AKG mic.
Old 17th September 2007
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I cannot endorse Telefunken USA naming a microphone a name that refers to an *actual* microphone, when it is different than the real thing.

Whether intended or not, (of course if was intended, ) that policy is crafted to confuse.

Your microphone has nothing to do with a vintage AKG mic.
It was technically a Telefunken microphone, though it was made by AKG. If it makes you feel better, think of it as a car. A 1969 Mustang is not the same as a 1996 Mustang, which is not the same as a 2007 Mustang. You can view ours as a 2007 Mustang: it has that classic Mustang vibe, but it has some modern updates.
Old 18th September 2007
  #20
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the mic as a car

Hello Ian,

I'm a fan of what you all are doing--I'll say that up front.
Your AK47 model is a credible re working of a ChiCom chassis.

On the matter of the 260, it strikes me that your rationale is a special "in house" TeleUSAspeak that allows you to name your own made up mic design with the name of an actual microphone.

I don't want to think of the mic as a car. I'll leave that up to you. You are primarily in the business of selling a classic vibe. That too, in the world of commerce, is an acceptable niche.
Old 6th November 2007
  #21
Gear Nut
 

But how does it sound?

I recently had an engineer tell me that the new Ela M260 blows away my Gefell M300s. I'd like to hear if anyone has put them up against each other and if so, what they thought. Thanks!
Old 6th November 2007
  #22
The M260 is a really impressive microphone. The size and depth from the M260 (cardioid capsule) is remarkable!! Plus, the M260 provides an enormous amount of character and soul, great for any acoustic recordings.

peace
mixwell
Old 7th November 2007
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

The Mustang analogy falls flat because Telefunken USA describes the Professional Series on their web site as "hand-built replicas of familiar classics." (Emphasis added by me.) Ford would not call the 2007 Mustang a replica of any previously made version. I haven't heard the new Telefunken Ela M 260, so I can't comment on the sound. For all I know, it may sound wonderful. I just don't like the marketing angle.

Rick
Old 18th November 2007
  #24
mas
Gear Nut
 
mas's Avatar
 

ELA M 260 info update

I meanwhile was able to get hold of some additional infos about this mic.

My initial speculation that the ELA M 260 is related to the C60 was wrong...
I contacted AKG´s service department and was told that the amp of this mic (called ELA M965 BTW) has little to do with the C60. Instead this amp is quite closely related to the circuit of the ELA M 251/250.
Obviously AKG had an quite economic approach regarding it´s mic circuits (the amp of the C28A is very similar to the ELA M 251E´s - even more so than the C12´s).
However, the transformer used is not the T14/1 (like in the 251, C28, C12, C24) but another type called "T199/1". It is slightly bigger than the T14/1 and fits snugly inside the mic, filling the full inner diameter of the slim housing. It offers 200Ohm or 50Ohm output impedance.

Also the capsule mount is slightly different than the usual AKG CMS mount, the difference being that the contact pin is located on the mic body instead of the capsule. That means that the AKG CK28 as well as CK1 (CMS system) and all the aftermarket capsules cannot be used with the ELA M 260. Other than that the M260 capsule is identical to the CK28, including the thread.
As the micbody (ELA M965) is used with either the M260 or the M261 capsules, it has an additional contact (pin) that is needed for the M261 capsule (switchable pattern – omni, cardioid, fig. eight). On the capsule side of the extension tube it´s not a pin but a wire bail. (see 1st image)

The second pic was on TelefunkenUSA´s website while their new mic was under development (downloaded 2003) and shows an original 260 with new PSU and cable.

The third pic (crop) is currently on TeleUSA´s website and shows an original 260 from another perspective (in the booth on AES oct.2006).
It too shows that the contact pin is on the other side, not on the capsule.

So it appears that the ELA M 260 is the least versatile of the AKG-made SDC modular tube mics because only two capsules fit (with the multipattern M261 being extremely rare).
But as the C28 isn´t too far off designwise (approx. like 251 vs. 251E), it´s a more easily available and more versatile (capsule-wise) alternative.

I didn´t find a brochure or specifications yet.

Unfortunately I don´t have better/more detailed pics by now. But as Telefunken USA seems to own (or at least have access to) an original 260, maybe they could post some better pics. Would be great.
Attached Thumbnails
Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-m-260-capsulemount.jpg   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-260-box.jpg   Telefunken Ela M 260 mic-aes-10-2006.jpg  
Old 19th November 2007
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
T- Funk Ian's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricknroll View Post
The Mustang analogy falls flat because Telefunken USA describes the Professional Series on their web site as "hand-built replicas of familiar classics." (Emphasis added by me.) Ford would not call the 2007 Mustang a replica of any previously made version. I haven't heard the new Telefunken Ela M 260, so I can't comment on the sound. For all I know, it may sound wonderful. I just don't like the marketing angle.

Rick
It is a little confusing when we put "hand built replicas of familiar classics" on the Professional series. It was just an oversight because that's what the original Professional series was about. However, if you take a look at the series now, it includes the RM-5C, which is not a replica of anything. So, the statement doesn't hold true and again was just an oversight. I am in the process of scoping out our website and updating it. That was just one of the things that hadn't been updated yet.
Old 19th November 2007
  #26
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Hello Ian,

Your post gives no new information and obfuscates instead of clarifying.

Let's get back to the question-- why does TelefunkenUSA name a completely new mic, a new creation, with the same name as a known and actual mic from the 1960's?

Clearly you all want the customer to bathe in the vintage vibe and assumed "quality," yet you do not differentiate how your mic is the same or different from the original AKG.

In other places on your website, the company goes on at length to describe the differences between capsules, vacuum tubes, accessories et al.

What sound world does this new 260 mic inhabit?


Please pass this complaint on to the head monster.

thank you,
Plush
Old 19th November 2007
  #27
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Leaving aside the discussion,
is anyone using the mic in the real world, any feedback?
Old 20th November 2007
  #28
mas
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mas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanogil View Post
Leaving aside the discussion,
is anyone using the mic in the real world, any feedback?
Yeah right! I´d really love to hear the new one!
What about an A/B comparison between the new mic and the original ELA M260?

For starters, I really like the look of the new mic. (Judging from the updated picture on the website, the Telefunken-Logo has been moved slightly upwards on the final version - looks very balanced now )
Old 20th November 2007
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
Legacy Audio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djanogil View Post
Leaving aside the discussion,
is anyone using the mic in the real world, any feedback?
Maybe this might be of some assistance.

I've recorded a little (45MB) ProTools session that is two small pieces of electric guitar in the style of AC/DC and Led Zeppelin comparing the TelefunkenUSA M260 and the Shure SM57 recorded at the same time so you can switch back and forth by muting channels. If you don't have ProTools, you'll still be able to import the files into your DAW and line them up easily.

The chain is:
Telecaster > Orange Tiny Terror amp > Orange 2x12 Cab w/vintage 30's > Mic > Brent Averill 1073 (no EQ) > Apogee AD16X convertor.

Session is:
ProTools 7, Mac, WAV files, 24 Bit / 96kHz.
45MB.

I'll leave it up for a few days for those interested.
DOWNLOAD SESSION

The M260 makes a great hi-hat or drum overhead mic too. I'll see if I can put something together and post samples soon.
Old 20th November 2007
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy Audio View Post
Maybe this might be of some assistance.

I've recorded a little (45MB) ProTools session that is two small pieces of electric guitar in the style of AC/DC and Led Zeppelin comparing the TelefunkenUSA M260 and the Shure SM57 recorded at the same time so you can switch back and forth by muting channels. If you don't have ProTools, you'll still be able to import the files into your DAW and line them up easily.

The chain is:
Telecaster > Orange Tiny Terror amp > Orange 2x12 Cab w/vintage 30's > Mic > Brent Averill 1073 (no EQ) > Apogee AD16X convertor.

Session is:
ProTools 7, Mac, WAV files, 24 Bit / 96kHz.
45MB.

I'll leave it up for a few days for those interested.
DOWNLOAD SESSION

The M260 makes a great hi-hat or drum overhead mic too. I'll see if I can put something together and post samples soon.
Drums overhead would be highly appreciated! As well as stereo ac. guitar
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