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If you had $40,000.00 for a brand new Pro Tools HD Setup...What would you do?
Old 8th September 2007
  #31
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Slaytex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Not to mention a limited mindset.
Please elaborate!
Old 8th September 2007
  #32
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytex View Post
Only you can figure this one out.
o.k, I wasn't serious, I'm just tired of all the Digi-bashing, it's getting old. I use PT but would never state that it is better or worse that any other system, it just works for me.

'Sounding better' is such a relative term, especially when applied to a naked DAW before being dressed up with converters, preamps and most importantly someone blessed with musical ears.
Old 8th September 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
o.k, I wasn't serious, I'm just tired of all the Digi-bashing, it's getting old. I use PT but would never state that it is better or worse that any other system, it just works for me.

'Sounding better' is such a relative term, especially when applied to a naked DAW before being dressed up with converters, preamps and most importantly someone blessed with musical ears.
I think your confusing me with another poster. I never bashed PT. I just stated that I can't conceive spending 10's of thousands of dollars on an HD system unless I was a major commercial facility that needed it to survive. I think PT LE users would back that as well. This is why many of us have killer Native systems and an Mbox.heh

Also, you never answered my previous post about "limited mindsets". Please do.

Thanks.
Old 9th September 2007
  #34
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfoote8 View Post
Ok. I just want to make sure that when people come in and they don't see Pro Tools, am I limiting my customer base.
You are limiting your customer base if you have protools.
The only people that still think protools is cool are 15 year olds.
Any serious musician knows PT converters are average at best.
The PT software itself isn't bad.

Most serious artists use radar.
Protools is just a buzz word now like 'fender' neither
of which can be consider pro. At one time they may have been
Old 9th September 2007
  #35
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heyman's Avatar
+2 on What Mike caffrey said.
Better yet, Used Pro Tools Rig Clocked to a Radar.
Old 9th September 2007
  #36
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
You can either listen to the drivel about buying other systems or buy a HD Pro Tools on Monday morning and start making money next week.

This insanely juvenile Digi bashing is just getting old. I don't care who's doing it.
Old 9th September 2007
  #37
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
You can either listen to the drivel about buying other systems or buy a HD Pro Tools on Monday morning and start making money next week.

well, at the very least you can buy the pro tools rig on monday morning and if you're *not* making money next week you can't blame it on the daw!


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 9th September 2007
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
You are limiting your customer base if you have protools.
The only people that still think protools is cool are 15 year olds.
Any serious musician knows PT converters are average at best.
The PT software itself isn't bad.

Most serious artists use radar.
Protools is just a buzz word now like 'fender' neither
of which can be consider pro. At one time they may have been
Hum, ugh, well, ok, a, speachless................
Old 9th September 2007
  #39
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barbital's Avatar
Here's what I'd do:

Buy a Mac Pro (with 8 cores) and an Apogee Duet (for micing vocals) and a MiniDAC for monitoring output or if you are only composing.

If you are into doing vocals, grab a decent condenser mic like a Sounddeluxe, and a Shure SM57 for a good allround dynamic mic.

Grab a pair of headphones, like Ultrasone 2500 (my personal favourite which have amazing bass response - I wouldn't mix on them but I would track on them).

With a mic setup you can record vocals, so if you are into composing, you might be interested in the singer-songwriter thing and start out with your own songs. It's a great way to start.

Then I'd get some acoustic treatment done. You NEED acoustic treatment done, there is no way around it. Your mixes need to translate and they will not if you don't have adequate treatment, at least to reduce reflections. If I was doing vocals I would build myself a decent vocal booth as they can be done easily if you are prepared to do some research. You can build one for as little as $1000 with the right materials, that would save you $2k right away. I saved myself at least $1-2k on my own acoustics project.

Then I'd buy a pair of Focal Solo6 together with a Focal Sub to suit.

Then I'd buy Logic Pro.

I would grab Pianoteq for my first instrument, as it's the best piano instrument I've ever heard and it can be tweaked to infinity to get whatever sound you are after. There are now numerous add ons for historical instruments including a harpsichord, some half grands and piano fortes. This would be a great start. Piano is the best thing to start with.

JamStix 2 would be the next one, and a decent percussion library like Stormdrum would be nice. There are other percussion sets, and some include tuned perc like steeldrums, vibraphones, etc. recorded with several velocity layers which come in handy and sound very realistic as they are.

Next would be the entire collection of the Wallander instruments (when the entire instrument sets are finally done, he is still working on woodwinds but he's already got some of the brass covered, and there's a LOT more to come including strings like violin, cello, viola, bass, and possibly harp and classical guitar).

Then I'd grab AAS String Studio and NI Guitar Rig to cover the rest of the guitars, acoustics, electrics and basses, clavinets, clavichords, etc.

Then I'd invest in a decent synth like Albino or Zebra or maybe Tera. And maybe get NI Reaktor as it's proven to be a solid foundation for building synths on plus it has an ever increasing user library.

Then I'd get a MIDI controller, something like Novation Remote SL 61 key controller.

Finally, something like Cognitone MPS (music prototyping) would be a great addition as this allows for more creative freedom for composers like myself who want to write better music than they do, but simply suffer from writer's block and cannot finish tunes.

At that point I think I'd be set. But there may be more.

Just add musical talent and you could achieve great recordings with such a setup.

And probably plenty of change left over to set aside for long term upgrades.

And then...you could set yourself up for a career as a composer. Believe me, they can make a load of money. A friend of mine does freelance and makes at least $60k a year with not much effort. He uses EWQL Colossus, Symphonic Orchestra and Choirs, EWQL RA, and Stormdrum, and writes mostly ornamental music.

I would never use samples for things like woodwinds, brass, strings, and any other expressive instruments and would use synths for those, and Wallander will cover those most likely within the next few years and may very well cover every woodwind and brass instrument conceived (given enough time, naturally). I'd only use samples for percussion (both tuned perc and drums) as this combination would give me the best sound I could get.

And no worrying about rowdy clients or drunken sailors damaging your precious investment.

Ben
Old 9th September 2007
  #40
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heyman's Avatar
Tony, I have nothing against Pro Tools. I am just saying- go hunting for a used Pro tools rig, maybe save some money...


Then clock it to a Radar.. Thats my preference..

Old 9th September 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
If you already have the G5 then I'd get a Symphony card and like 2x AD-16x and 2x DA-16x boxes from Apogee [so I'd have 32 I/O], as much memory as I could get into the computer and run Logic instead of Pro-Tools [because I think it sounds better]... then invest the $20+ thousand you had left over into outboard processing, mic-pre's, mics, etc. as the Apogee stuff sounds better and costs less than the ****i-Design hardware.

Well you asked what I would do... as always, YMMV.

Peace.
Actually you kinda would have 64 I/O. The AD/DA-16x have 16 in/outs on the ADAT side too... Opens up nice possibilities...
Old 9th September 2007
  #42
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The dman's Avatar
 

Quote:
I have $40,000 to spend on all of my equipment. I would like to know what some of you would do if you where in my position.
Unless I missed it you still haven't said what you need as far as I/O, what kind of music, facilities etc.
Old 9th September 2007
  #43
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deuc647's Avatar
 

i dunno but this question seems a lil full sail-ish
Old 9th September 2007
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytex View Post
Having a limited amount of gear and budget is the best thing that has ever happened to me as an engineer. It makes me work extremely hard to get the best possible product I can with what I have to work with. If I had it all, my **** would still sound the same or no better I bet.

I also agree on the fact that you can do some great stuff with $10,000 these days. I have about $9,000 and I can say that i'm proud of the stuff that I do compared to a lot of other big places that have nearly 10 times that amount.
You asked for it, so I will follow through.

Your above quote is why I used the expression 'limited mindset'. While I agree that starting out with few options is GOOD (and in fact that's what I did too like most other folks here I guess) I also think it's rather silly to celebrate that aspect and state 'my stuff sounds better than Studio X that has 2 U67s' or something.

You're limiting your potential by comparing your work to those places. When George Massenburg was asked in 'Behind the Glass' about the most common mistakes of newbies, his answer was 'Thinking that their first efforts are great'. And that's very true and I knew that it was and maybe still is true for me as well.
Old 9th September 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
You asked for it, so I will follow through.

Your above quote is why I used the expression 'limited mindset'. While I agree that starting out with few options is GOOD (and in fact that's what I did too like most other folks here I guess) I also think it's rather silly to celebrate that aspect and state 'my stuff sounds better than Studio X that has 2 U67s' or something.

You're limiting your potential by comparing your work to those places. When George Massenburg was asked in 'Behind the Glass' about the most common mistakes of newbies, his answer was 'Thinking that their first efforts are great'. And that's very true and I knew that it was and maybe still is true for me as well.
Doorknocker, I think most of us would like you to step away from the keyboard. You don't have anything constructive to say. You are attempting to frivolously make a point that is just not relevant. You took his comments way out of context just to make some juvenile attempt at making yourself seem relevant.
Old 9th September 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryjohns View Post
Doorknocker, I think most of us would like you to step away from the keyboard. You don't have anything constructive to say. You are attempting to frivolously make a point that is just not relevant. You took his comments way out of context just to make some juvenile attempt at making yourself seem relevant.
Wow, I didn't know that you're a spokesperson for the community! 'Most of us'.....my ass!

And I also fail to see the revelance of your ersatz-moderating.

But here's some good news, I will step away from the keyboard now as I'm going to sleep.
Old 10th September 2007
  #47
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jslevin's Avatar
I don't really have any advice for the original poster, because I have no idea what he wants to do other than spend money. However ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
You are limiting your customer base if you have protools.
The only people that still think protools is cool are 15 year olds.
Any serious musician knows PT converters are average at best.
The PT software itself isn't bad.

Most serious artists use radar.
Protools is just a buzz word now like 'fender' neither
of which can be consider pro. At one time they may have been
... this is possibly the dumbest and most misleading post I've ever seen on any forum.

Most serious recording artists have never even heard of Radar, and most professional engineers have never used it. Insanely great as it may be, it's about as close to being a standard as Ensoniq Paris.

"Limiting the customer base" ... I've never heard of a studio not getting a job because they use Pro Tools. Criticize it all day long, and I'll agree with a lot of it. But you cannot possibly lose business by having it.

"PT converters" -- I guess you mean the converters included in some Digidesign Pro Tools interfaces. They're fine, but you can do better. That has nothing to do with whether you use Pro Tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
If you already have the G5 then I'd get a Symphony card and like 2x AD-16x and 2x DA-16x boxes from Apogee [so I'd have 32 I/O], as much memory as I could get into the computer and run Logic instead of Pro-Tools [because I think it sounds better]... then invest the $20+ thousand you had left over into outboard processing, mic-pre's, mics, etc. as the Apogee stuff sounds better and costs less than the ****i-Design hardware.
It's rare that you would be the one to confuse the issue, but you have.

Pro Tools users are not tied to Digidesign converters. You can have a fully supported HD system without a single Digidesign ADC or DAC channel, and absolutely without compromise. You can also have a much cheaper, fully functional but officially unsupported configuration via hack cards by Apogee and Lynx.

You and many others really do folks a disservice by conflating the choice of converters with the choice of DAW system. It really is not the same subject.

Now then. Unlike a Digidesign PTHD system, buying into the Apogee Symphony system does actually tie you into a single brand of converter -- and an extremely expensive one, too. The converters are excellent, and I'll take your word for it that Logic "sounds better." But they are certainly not cheap, and you certainly do not have a choice (except between the Rosetta and 16x series).

So this Apogee-Apple system sure as hell had better sound better than, say, a Lynx-Digidesign system, because it won't bring you any business, and it basically costs the same. A 16-channel Symphony-Logic system will run you a solid $7000 -- two Rosettas, three cards and a copy of Logic -- and it's another $5000 for a 32-channel system. And unlike Pro Tools, you don't have the option to choose the converters you prefer, nor can you conserve cash by doing so. And you don't even get a real-time, latency-free mixer or any real-time DSP.

Symphony may be the devil's own favorite ice cream, but it certainly represents no kind of price-performance breakthrough, not even in comparison with PTHD.

JSL
Old 10th September 2007
  #48
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Slaytex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
You asked for it, so I will follow through.

Your above quote is why I used the expression 'limited mindset'. While I agree that starting out with few options is GOOD (and in fact that's what I did too like most other folks here I guess) I also think it's rather silly to celebrate that aspect and state 'my stuff sounds better than Studio X that has 2 U67s' or something.

You're limiting your potential by comparing your work to those places. When George Massenburg was asked in 'Behind the Glass' about the most common mistakes of newbies, his answer was 'Thinking that their first efforts are great'. And that's very true and I knew that it was and maybe still is true for me as well.
I'm sorry, but I don't know how to explain what I said any clearer. I mean now negativity towards anyone with a killer rig. It's just that generally you should start limited and master what you got before you move on. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. I'm sure we have have all met that guy that came across a huge chunk of change from family and bought a lot of cool stuff, but at the end of the day does his sound justify the cost?

"Efficiency" that's all I'm saying here.

Also, I think that limited gear makes you have a greater mindset (not a limited mindset as you say)as you are forced to get creative and learn that you can't rely on gear to get you through things all the time.

The boutique mind is a beautiful thing. The Boutique preamp is just a preamp.
Old 10th September 2007
  #49
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Slaytex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
I don't really have any advice for the original poster, because I have no idea what he wants to do other than spend money. However ...



... this is possibly the dumbest and most misleading post I've ever seen on any forum.

Most serious recording artists have never even heard of Radar, and most professional engineers have never used it. Insanely great as it may be, it's about as close to being a standard as Ensoniq Paris.

"Limiting the customer base" ... I've never heard of a studio not getting a job because they use Pro Tools. Criticize it all day long, and I'll agree with a lot of it. But you cannot possibly lose business by having it.

"PT converters" -- I guess you mean the converters included in some Digidesign Pro Tools interfaces. They're fine, but you can do better. That has nothing to do with whether you use Pro Tools.

JSL
I don't know Allen, but from reading his posts over the years I'm willing to bet he's just being a smart ass.

Or maybe he's the biggest Digi hater ever......
Old 10th September 2007
  #50
Gear Addict
 

just get an Mbox and call it a day!

If you do get a Allsihad rig. don't get the 192 i/o they are horrible. an old ad-8000se sounds better than that piece of junk.


fletcher made a good point. Why pro tools? look at PTHD, PTLE, Digital Performer, and Logic.

as far as converters look at Prism, Apogee, Lynx, Mytek, etc.

DON'T BUY A 192 I/O
Old 10th September 2007
  #51
Gear Head
 

What about this Fairlight CC1 system? Is this something that is mostly used for Video or is it "the wave of the future" type product that will be the new standard in Audio production? It looks very cool and quite affordable. ANy input on this?
Old 10th September 2007
  #52
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

why are you building a pro tools studio ?
why ?
Old 10th September 2007
  #53
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSSound-Studios View Post
Buy analog
i agree - i believe this business is going to be
two groups:

1) analog
2) people who don't care about sound - making music for people who don't
care about sound (convenient van gogh)



be well


- jack
Old 10th September 2007
  #54
Gear Head
 

I am not building a pro tools studio per say...I am just pursuing a dream to own my own commercial studio. I have the money to do it and I just want to do it right. Everyone here seems to think I am an idiot for asking what people are using and into these days, aside from pro tools. I have used Pro Tools HD as well as others. I am just wanting to know if Pro Tools is really all that good and maybe there is something else out there that is better or more interesting. I have looking at this Fairlight CC1 thing and was wondering if that is something to consider. I am merely looking for insight not criticism. To be exact here is what I am wanting to do: I would like at least 16 channels of AD so I can record drums, and I would like 4 channels of DA for playback and maybe a cue mix. I will mostly work in the box but would love a nice controller. And yes my room and acoustics are first rate and spared no expense on that part. I have a nice Argosy console to hold everything neatly and I already own a G5. I would love a great vocal mic some nice mic pres and a great monitor and talkback system. Hopefully this helps everyone kind of see what I am thinking. Thanks
Old 10th September 2007
  #55
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytex View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't know how to explain what I said any clearer. I mean now negativity towards anyone with a killer rig. It's just that generally you should start limited and master what you got before you move on. Otherwise it's kinda pointless. I'm sure we have have all met that guy that came across a huge chunk of change from family and bought a lot of cool stuff, but at the end of the day does his sound justify the cost?

"Efficiency" that's all I'm saying here.

Also, I think that limited gear makes you have a greater mindset (not a limited mindset as you say)as you are forced to get creative and learn that you can't rely on gear to get you through things all the time.

The boutique mind is a beautiful thing. The Boutique preamp is just a preamp.
Well, I agree with you.
Old 10th September 2007
  #56
Lives for gear
$40,000 will buy you alot of ****. If you want to stay in Pro Tools then do it. Just commit and do it.
HD3 Accel
URS Everything plugins
McDSP - The big bundle
Waves Platinum TDM
Apogee AD16X & DA 16X
Big Ben
API 200 series rack with 8 pre's and 4 comps
2 x Vintech X81's
Pacifica
2 x Great River MEQ-1NV
Neve Portico 5012 & 5043 compressor
Distressor x 2
1176 x 2
Done. If it's too much money then swap the Apogee for Lynx Aurora 16 and/or get 2 x API 3124's and leave out the API comps.
Old 10th September 2007
  #57
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfoote8 View Post
I am not building a pro tools studio per say...I am just pursuing a dream to own my own commercial studio. I have the money to do it and I just want to do it right. Everyone here seems to think I am an idiot for asking what people are using and into these days, aside from pro tools. I have used Pro Tools HD as well as others. I am just wanting to know if Pro Tools is really all that good and maybe there is something else out there that is better or more interesting. I have looking at this Fairlight CC1 thing and was wondering if that is something to consider. I am merely looking for insight not criticism. To be exact here is what I am wanting to do: I would like at least 16 channels of AD so I can record drums, and I would like 4 channels of DA for playback and maybe a cue mix. I will mostly work in the box but would love a nice controller. And yes my room and acoustics are first rate and spared no expense on that part. I have a nice Argosy console to hold everything neatly and I already own a G5. I would love a great vocal mic some nice mic pres and a great monitor and talkback system. Hopefully this helps everyone kind of see what I am thinking. Thanks

If you're opening a commercial studio GET PT HD...period. Clients will want the name.
If it was your own private studio, get whatever you want. If I was starting from scratch and it was a private studio, I'd probably get Nuendo 4 and Radar24 for converters when it comes out -- for sonic reasons.
But commercial, I'd get PT HD and find a used Radar24 for converters and clock.

Depending on what you like for preamps, a rack of API's or Aurora GTP8 for Neve sound, and a rack of API eq's. 2 Distressors and some decent mics.
Old 10th September 2007
  #58
Gear Addict
 
JesseJ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mltamisin View Post
$40,000 will buy you alot of ****. If you want to stay in Pro Tools then do it. Just commit and do it.
HD3 Accel
URS Everything plugins
McDSP - The big bundle
Waves Platinum TDM
Apogee AD16X & DA 16X
Big Ben
API 200 series rack with 8 pre's and 4 comps
2 x Vintech X81's
Pacifica
2 x Great River MEQ-1NV
Neve Portico 5012 & 5043 compressor
Distressor x 2
1176 x 2
Done. If it's too much money then swap the Apogee for Lynx Aurora 16 and/or get 2 x API 3124's and leave out the API comps.
Excuse me, but why would he need the Big Ben? The AD-16x already features the C777 clocking technology found in Big Ben and a Word Clock I/O.

Also you get the ADAT I/Os in AD-16x & DA16x so you get a possible 32in/outs... which people seem not to 'get' because they do not tell it clearly enough on the Apogee website. You get 16 channels of AES, ADAT/SMUX Output from the AD-16x and vice versa on the DA-16x. Yes, outputs from the 'inputbox'. And inputs from the 'outputbox'... mind boggling, but handy! (PS. Apogee: I wish I could rename things in Maestro. Devices and inputs and outputs)

Just my 5c to save $1,350.00 (3,6 €urocents to save 985.25€)

- Jesse -
Old 10th September 2007
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBowlin View Post
A better question might be: How do you turn $40k into $5k? Buy a PT HD rig and wait a few years
Funny, the only time I ever did something like that was with a Trident board and JH-24 2" machine.

Regardless of how you feel about Digi, let's be fair. They let you trade up.

In addition to Protools, I also have an Apogee AD-8000, but there's no trade-up path for that.

-R
Old 10th September 2007
  #60
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Energie's Avatar
 

I love pro tools!! The software is great.

Is it now becoming trendy to bash PT? All of the softwares out there have thier stengths and weaknesses, and no, I don't hear of tons of pro's using radar, none that i know.

Bang for the buck, a used system is ideal for sure.
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