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Which sounds better PCM 70 or PCM 80? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 6th September 2007
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Which sounds better PCM 70 or PCM 80?

Got a chance to buy one or the other... the 80 comes with the dual fx expansion card.

Would love your take slutz!

-jas
Old 6th September 2007
  #2
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andsonic's Avatar
 

Un-ask the question.

Do you want a classic box?
Get the 70
Do you want a newer box with more options that sounds great.
Get the 80.


I would be comparing a TC M2000 or 3000 with the PCM 80.
Not the 70 and the 80

When we had a chance to pick up afew PCM's, we got a 70, an 80, and a 90.
Old 6th September 2007
  #3
Gear Nut
 

cool. i thought maybe slutz would think one was hands down a better "soudning" unit. I'm inexperienced with Lexicon verbs...

If the price is the same then there is no preference other then one being "classic"?

-jas
Old 6th September 2007
  #4
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alexstringer's Avatar
 

If you're greedy like everyone else, go for the PCM80, you'll get 250 more presets w/ the possibility to buy preset cards adding another 200 presets/card. The pcm80 is also a multi effect box so it's more versatile.
The Pcm70 only have 9 presets and only does reverbs.
Old 6th September 2007
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

They are not the same at all.
The 70 is a classic 80's digital reverb sound with some delays, flanger, chorus and things like that.
The 80 is much cleaner and with a lot a fx. More modern sounding
Old 6th September 2007
  #6
Gear Nut
 

so...

for straight up verb... let's say that the ammount of presets is not a factor... just the sound of the verb...

is there a winner?

or is it diff strokes?

-jas
Old 6th September 2007
  #7
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allencollins's Avatar
 

I think the 70 has a more realistic verb than an 80
Also it think it sounds thicker. But the 80 is quieter, alot quieter
plus the 70's that I own anyway only have mono input
Old 7th September 2007
  #8
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
The PCM 70 but only with the "2.2" software... V. 3.0 was when the unit became pretty close to worthless... the "Tiled Room" that is in 2.2 is worth the price of admission alone... for some dumbassed reason they didn't put that program in 3.0 or in the PCM-80.

Peace.
Old 7th September 2007
  #9
Gear Head
 
Bob the V's Avatar
 

I have 3. something software but before the "upgrade" I wrote down all the settings on the presets I liked (including the Tiled Room). I was able to create the same sounds with this information.

Also, the '70 does more than reverb. It is a mono input device, with stereo out.

Bob Vandiver
Old 8th September 2007
  #10
mds
Lives for gear
 

There is a special place in my heart for the PCM70...
Old 8th September 2007
  #11
Gear Nut
 

thanks for all the replys! Is there a way to upgrade or "downgrade" the software on a PCM 70 from 1.0 to 2.0 or the orther way 'round... from 3.0 to 2.0?

-j
Old 8th September 2007
  #12
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

PCM 70 IS a classic... a mini 480L

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
The PCM 70 but only with the "2.2" software... V. 3.0 was when the unit became pretty close to worthless... the "Tiled Room" that is in 2.2 is worth the price of admission alone... for some dumbassed reason they didn't put that program in 3.0 or in the PCM-80.

Peace.
+1 ... AND I believe it shares some Lexicon 480L programming/algos... not the same, but it has "that" character that the 80/81/90/91 and later never caught again.

-andrews
Old 8th September 2007
  #13
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Casey's Avatar
 

70 roots

I believe that the 70 lineage derives from the Lexicon 200. (A very fine unit if you've had the pleasure). The concert hall algorithm sounds very different from the 480 hall and random hall algorithms. Interestingly, this is the only 70 alg that offers modulation IIRC.

The Rich Chamber algorithm (which tiled room is based) and Rich Plate algorithm sound closer to the later 480 algorithms but without modulation, they build up faster, and are somewhat spitty owing to the prominant early echos, (It really cuts.)

If you hear a change going to the 90, it is due to the extra cycles presumably available to the algorithms which, at least to my ear, add more modulation and more rapid build up (but perhaps a less defined and less subtle sound.) In any case this certainly created the 90 flavor ( and it's legions of fans.)

The 90 sounds very different in it's halls from the 300/480, the latter breaking new ground with the wonderful hall and random hall algorithms which remain standards today.

-Casey
Old 9th September 2007
  #14
Lives for gear
 

PCM70 is a KILLER unit!

I recall reading on this site a post written by an ex-Lexicon employee that the PCM 70 was based on algorithms ported directly from the Lexicon 224X verison 8.1.

The algorithms were ported but the hardware was different to the 224XL, the PCM70 moving more in the 480L direction using the same A-D - D/A converters as the 480L.
All the discreet cards from the 224 series "shrunk" into custom chips etc.
One board in a PCM 70. 3 in a 480L and like 8/9 in the 224 series!

The PCM70 seems to me to be one engine from a Lexicon 224XL or with similiar 32K bandwidth as 224XL but with the 480L A-D and D-A conversion.
Its pretty much as good as it gets for the vintage Lexicon sound!
Shame its slightly noisy and only mono input.

The earlier Lexicon 200, 224, 224 and 224XL all used a different A/D - D/A to the PCM70. All the 224 range use the same converter.

Could anyone tell me what programs the 224X with version 8.1 software has?

I know the original 224, with the last software (version 4.4 with nvs board) had had 11 programs, all reverb programs apart from one "chorus" algorithm.

The original 224 with 4.4 has these programs:

1) Small Concert Hall- B
2) Vocal Plate
3) Large Concert Hall- B
4) Acoustic Chamber
5) Percussion Plate- A
6) Small Concert Hall- A
14) Room A
16) Constant Density Plate- A
34) Chorus- A

I dont have any documentation for the Lexicon 224X with the 8.1 software and am curious to know what programs it has and how similiar it is to the Lexicon PCM70.

How many programs does it have?

Does it have the chorus and echo, resonant chords and multiband delay algorithms that the PCM70 (and 224XL) has?

Fwiw, the 224XL has 22 programs:

Bank 1 (HALLS): Concert Hall (7), Bright Hall (5) , Dark Hall (7).

Bank 2 (ROOMS): Room (4), Small Room (4), Chamber (1) , Rich chamber (8), Dark chamber (8) , Inverse room (3).

Bank 3 (PLATES): Plate (6), Small plate (6), Constant Density Plate A (1), Constant Density Plate B (3), Rich Plate (8).

Bank 4 (EFFECTS): Chorus and Echo (4), Resonant Chords (1), Multiband Delay (1).

Bank 5 (SPLITS): Hall/Hall (1), Plate/Plate (2), Plate/Hall (1), Plate/Chorus (1), Rich split (1)

The Lexicon PCM 70 with version 2 has 43 programs they are:

Bank 0: Chorus, Chorus Echos, Echo Flange, Stereo Flange, Double Slap, Spin Echoes, Swarbles, Psycho Echos, Echos BPM, Chorus and Echo B

Bank 1: Single Delay, Double Delay, Pan Delay, Cicular Delays, 4 Voice delay, Quatro Delays, Filtered Delays, Shuffle BPM, Bouncing BPM.

Bank 2: Major Chord, Minor Chord, 7th #11, Dom 13, Rym in C BPM, Rym C min BPM.

Bank 3: Concert Hall, long Hall, Gym.

Bank 4: Rich Chamber, Small Room, Tiled Room, Gated Chamber, Infinite reverb

Bank 5: Rich Plate, Small Plate, Gated Plate

Bank 6: Echo BPM, Cascade BPM, Filter Pan B, MIDI Chord B, MIDI Slap BPM, MIDI CT Hall, MIDI Inf Reverb.

It would be great if somone could tell me all the programs in the 224X with 8.1 software (with metal controller)

For the original poster, i highly recommend the PCM70 really fantastic reverb unit. Get version 2. Tiled room is great ALL the hall programs are FANTASTIC.
Has a lot of the 480L vibe (i have a 480L with classic cart) much, much cheaper too.

The PCM80 is more modern unit as had been said before.
I personally prefer the sound of the older digital units with the exception of a few things. I make electronic music so im mostly using reverb on analogue synths.

The PCM70 sounds fantastic on analogue polysynths. Same with the 480L and 224 series.
Elka Synthex, Jupiter 8 or Yamaha CS80 through a vintage Lexicon unit such as PCM 70, 224 or 480L is very NICE..

I find that most modern units sound terrible on vintage synths, they just kill the tone make them sound "glassy".
But all these different units have their place on different sources.

Im using Lexicon 480L or 224 for halls, AMS RMX-16 on drums and occasionally Roland R880.

Btw, i think the PCM80 did have the tiled room preset. I remember seeing it in the manual.

Cheers.
Old 9th September 2007
  #15
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Watersound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RABE View Post
thanks for all the replys! Is there a way to upgrade or "downgrade" the software on a PCM 70 from 1.0 to 2.0 or the orther way 'round... from 3.0 to 2.0?

-j
There is a way, it's in an older thread- someone 'round here can do it. Do a search and it should come up.
Old 9th September 2007
  #16
Lives for gear
 

To go to version 2 from version 3 (or the other way from 2 to 3) youll need someone to burn you some new Eproms.

I think this guy can help you out:

[email protected]

His name is Simon Flinn and he fixes a lot of Lexicon gear in the UK.

Can anyone tell me how many programs come on the Lexicon 224X with version 8.1 software? What programs apart from reverb are available?
Multiband delays? Resonant chords? Chorus and Echo?


Cheers.
Old 9th September 2007
  #17
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alexstringer's Avatar
 

If i remember it's 9 vs 16 on the 8.2.
8.2 also allow you to daisy chain the 224x to a 480L and use 1x larc to control both units.
Old 9th September 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
 

That cant be right Alex.
The standard 224 running 4.4 software has 9 programs. So the "newer" 224X running 8.1 must have more programs than the standard 224.

Im thinking the 224X must have the same programs as the 224XL?

The 224XL has 22 programs. Apart from the reverb, the 224XL has chorus & echo, resonant chords and multiband delay.

There must be someone out there with a 224X (with 8.1 software and blue metal remote) that can give some info?

Old 9th September 2007
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Thanks guys!

-j
Old 9th September 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Just had a look through some more Lexicon documents and stuff and look like ive answered my own question heh

For those that are interested the user manual mentions 5 extra programs were introduced in software version 8.2.1 for the 224XL, (22 programs in total) these 5 new programs are:

Rich Chamber
Dark Chamber
Inverse Room
Rich Plate
Rich Split

It also states the algorithms were refined at 8.2.1 for the 224XL..

So, it like the Lexicon 224X (running 8.1) and 224XL (running 8.1A) probably have 17 programs:

Bank 1 (HALLS): Concert Hall, Bright Hall, Dark Hall.

Bank 2 (ROOMS): Room, Small Room, Chamber.

Bank 3 (PLATES): Plate, Small Plate, Constant Density Plate A, Constant Density Plate B.

Bank 4 (FX): Chorus and Echo, Resonant Chords, Multiband Delay.

Bank 5 (Splits): Hall/Hall, Plate/Plate, Plate/Hall, Plate/Chorus.

Any 224X owners confirm this?


Im curious to know what the difference between the sound of the Lexicon 224X with software 8.1 and the 224XL with the early 8.1A software is?
(224XL started at 8.1A software before going up to the latest 8.2.1)

Looking at the manual it appears the programs were ONLY refined at version 8.2.1 for the 224XL so maybe software 8.1 for 224X and 8.1A for the 224XL sound the same?

Hardware was changed (more ram) as soon as the the LARC was fitted to the 224X..

I wonder if 8.1A for the 224XL sounds the same as 8.1 for the 224X, anyone?
It would be great to have the early 224X sound and use the LARC..

Cheers
Old 9th September 2007
  #21
Gear Nut
 

how 'bout a pcm 60? do those have mojo or are they crappy?

-j
Old 11th September 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Someone kindly scanned in one page from the Lexicon 224X manual, detailing the programs available with version 8.1 software..

Am simply posting as it may be of use in the archives for future reference.

Programs for 224X with 8.1 are:

1:Halls
2:Plates
3:Rooms
4:Chambers
5:Constant Density Plate (B)
6:Bright Halls
7:Small Rooms
13:Dark Halls
16:Constant Density Plate (A)
23:Split Halls
24:Split Plates
25:Plate/Hall
26:Plate/Chorus
34:Chorus
35:Resonant Chords
36:Multi-band Delays
Old 12th September 2007
  #23
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whitepapagold's Avatar
 

I just got a PCM70 3 days ago and just based off tile room like everyone says-if you've used one, you know. It was worth every penny plus it came with the manual and service notes... Only 500 bucks! Set it up in protools with a midi cable- its wonderful! It was one of those," well for 500, of course" moves! heh

About tile room-
Its my understanding that you can get tile room on V3 software but you must recreate it as the above poster said or I think the UK tech mentioned above will save V2 settings to the registers so you get both. You might want to ask him.

I don't know though, I bought V2.
Old 12th September 2007
  #24
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
The PCM 70 but only with the "2.2" software... V. 3.0 was when the unit became pretty close to worthless... the "Tiled Room" that is in 2.2 is worth the price of admission alone... for some dumbassed reason they didn't put that program in 3.0 or in the PCM-80.

Peace.
I agree, but this should be clarified for others- there is a program called "Tiled Room" in the PCM80. It does not sound like the Tiled Room in the PCM70, which is a classic.

Anyone that has access to both for the 1st time try this: send a kick to the PCM 80 tiled room and a kick to the PCM 70 tiled room. That should pretty much do it. More tasty than a Chicken Carbonara sandwich at Quizno's. Mmm mmm mmm mmm toasty.
Old 12th September 2007
  #25
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
the "Tiled Room" that is in 2.2 is worth the price of admission alone... for some dumbassed reason they didn't put that program in 3.0 or in the PCM-80.
That name sure is familiar... Are you sure it's not in the 80? Or maybe the 90? I've used it somewhere in Lex-Land and I don't have a 70.
Old 12th September 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Yes, the "Tiled Room" preset was in the PCM80, but the guy above mentioned it doesnt sound like the PCM70. I havent played with a PCM80 much but it sounded much cleaner.
I did have a PCM91 (but sold it) it sure doesnt sound anywhere near as good as a early PCM70 or Lexicon 480L. The 91 sounds metallic and cold. The PCM70 and 480L sound lush and warm.

It seems the classic warm rich sounding Lexicons are 200/ 224/ 224X/ 224XL/ PCM70 and 480L. Dont know about the PCM60, never tried one, but i think it fits into this category also.

The later, Lexicon 300, PCM80/810, PCM90/91 onwards all sound more clean and "modern" without the warmth of the early models.

I wonder if its all down to those Burr Brown A-D and D-A converts? All those old units use them. Dont know what converters were used in the 300 onwards..

Id love it if someone could take 5 minutes to jot down the settings for that Tiled Room preset, ill dial it into my 224X
Old 31st July 2008
  #27
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theblotted's Avatar
 

i know i'm reviving an old thread here;

but i'd also appreciate it if you someone could post the settings for PCM70's "Tiled Room" preset.

thanks!
Old 31st July 2008
  #28
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
It's pretty much the only patch that's really worth a damn [that I found... it also doesn't appear in the 3.0 software which is why I don't like the 3.0 version]... roll off a little treble and play with the pre-delay to taste.

As always, YMMV.

Peace.
Old 31st July 2008
  #29
Lives for gear
 

I have a Bricasti M7, which is wonderful for small rooms and has a Small, Medium & Large Tiled Rooms which I'm guessing were modelled with the Lexicon classics in mind ..

Can anyone who knows the originals comment on how close the M7 gets to this famous PCM70 Tiled Room?

Not that it matters - because the M7 is perfectly tweakable, sounds gorgeous and has no noise anyway. And presets are just presets.

But i'm curious - is all ...
Old 31st July 2008
  #30
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Remember, the PCM 70 has "that" sound because the hardware, converters and all are from the 480L family... it's more than just algos and programs like "Tiled Room."

Even if you can program the same algos, it won't have that classic Lexicon sound (if that's what you want, which is cool... sort of like picking up a "real" Strat and going "ah yeah, THAT'S why these are classics!").

-andrews

Oh, the answer to which is better, the PCM 70 or newer 80? The PCM 70 hands down (reason & context: None. My opinion)
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