The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Which sounds better PCM 70 or PCM 80? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 1st June 2012
  #61
One thing I remember from the 70 and 80... they sound great on their own, just listening to a single source going through (soloing the source and the lex returns) but in the mix... you can hear "spring reverb" overtones.... I don't know why, but it just happens.

Even with the tiled room preset. Mine's in a crate somewhere. I doubt I'll ever rack it and wire it again... or if it even works any more.
Old 1st June 2012
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
One thing I remember from the 70 and 80... they sound great on their own, just listening to a single source going through (soloing the source and the lex returns) but in the mix... you can hear "spring reverb" overtones.... I don't know why, but it just happens.

Even with the tiled room preset. Mine's in a crate somewhere. I doubt I'll ever rack it and wire it again... or if it even works any more.
Sell it to me then LOL

Seriously, I need to take a listen to the other ones... because I know how the 70 sounds... I need to see what other options I have...
Old 1st June 2012
  #63
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Pike View Post
One thing I remember from the 70 and 80... they sound great on their own, just listening to a single source going through (soloing the source and the lex returns) but in the mix... you can hear "spring reverb" overtones.... I don't know why, but it just happens.

Even with the tiled room preset. Mine's in a crate somewhere. I doubt I'll ever rack it and wire it again... or if it even works any more.
There is a bit of trashy thickness to the PCM70, that may be part of it's charm.I don't hear the spring effect however. That is a very specific sound.

I don't hear any of that in the PCM90, it is a cleaner sound, but some feel it has less vibe.

I still find both of them useful.

Last edited by bluejbill; 1st June 2012 at 08:17 PM.. Reason: Edit
Old 5th June 2012
  #64
Again... Could anyone spare 3 minutes to record a sample of the reverb from a PCM 80, 90 or whatever else has the Tiled Room preset?
I'll give the sample to trigger the reverb
Old 5th June 2012
  #65
Gear Head
 
diylan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeronimo View Post
Again... Could anyone spare 3 minutes to record a sample of the reverb from a PCM 80, 90 or whatever else has the Tiled Room preset?
I'll give the sample to trigger the reverb
I've got a PCM 70 (w/ Tiled Room), PM me with the sample.
Old 5th June 2012
  #66
Thanks a lot @dilyan
I already have a sample from the PCM 70... I would like to hear how the other units sound, so I can find out which one to buy... since I don't have the $$ to try each.
Old 5th June 2012
  #67
Lives for gear
 
oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben B View Post
PCM-70 = Noisy.

-Ben B
Yeah next time a noisy reverb unit keeps a record from entering the Top Ten let me know

TH
Old 6th June 2012
  #68
PCM 70! I used to have one and loved it.

Valhalla Room has a "Tiled Room" preset that comes very close.
Old 20th June 2012
  #69
Anyone with a LXP15 pleaaaase?
Old 30th July 2012
  #70
Gear Nut
 
Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeronimo View Post
Anyone with a LXP15 pleaaaase?
I have an LXP15II but it is not stock (JW mod). Just got done playing with it, the PCM70 (new addition) and PCM90. Different machines for sure. LXP has some really cool shorter sounds (drum plate and small room kill on snare) and has a pretty dark sound overall.

PCM70 has a lot of cool presets (mine has v2 and v3) and I'm really liking the medium and longer stuff, but the short stuff is good too. Really cool box, and very bright compared to the other two (unless it is set up like this...haven't gotten much into the parameters yet, just enough to set the effects output level to +12db). Tiled Room is good, Small Room, Rich Chamber, Long Hall, the modulation effects...lots of useable stuff.

The PCM90(with card...PCM91 presets) has a lot of fluffy presets that you will likely never use, but many good ones that you would use, or at least use as a beginning point for tweaking. 450 presets is a lot of loading and memorizing. Post presets are what I like in that one the most, but many good ones to choose from. A preset called warehouse (in medium rooms) is a really cool ambient reverb. I totally disagree with anyone who says it sounds thin. It is a full, beautiful reverb effect.

I'll post some samples at some point. Setting them all to "Tiled Room" (and each of them has it) isn't fair because I believe the parameters are tweaked differently in each. It sounds awesome on the 70, terrible on the 15 and meh on the 90, so it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison imo.
Old 31st July 2012
  #71
Gear Nut
 
Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Also, regarding the PCM70 on the output level (did a search and didn't find a step-by-step how-to), do this:

If "pgm" button is lit, hit it once. If "reg" button is lit, hit it once. When you have pgm and reg LED lights off, you are in parameter mode and ready to make adjustments. In the matrix, FX Adj is row 0, column 1, so just hit "1" on the numeric pad and it will display FX Adj level. Turn your soft knob dial to move it to "12db." It is easy to do and takes a matter of seconds once you know how. It is a global setting, so all presets (including user registers) will now have this as their output level.
Old 1st August 2012
  #72
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker of Rock View Post
Also, regarding the PCM70 on the output level (did a search and didn't find a step-by-step how-to), do this:

If "pgm" button is lit, hit it once. If "reg" button is lit, hit it once. When you have pgm and reg LED lights off, you are in parameter mode and ready to make adjustments. In the matrix, FX Adj is row 0, column 1, so just hit "1" on the numeric pad and it will display FX Adj level. Turn your soft knob dial to move it to "12db." It is easy to do and takes a matter of seconds once you know how. It is a global setting, so all presets (including user registers) will now have this as their output level.
That's the one. The one people who moan that the 70 is noisy don't know about.......
Old 7th April 2013
  #73
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
That's the one. The one people who moan that the 70 is noisy don't know about.......
Hi how do you save those presets then ?

I can dial 12db+ but i have no idea how to save it ?
Old 7th April 2013
  #74
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LARSSWEDEN View Post
Hi how do you save those presets then ?

I can dial 12db+ but i have no idea how to save it ?
Doesn't it save? Sorry, no idea how to help you, as all I remember is having to always turn it up when walking into a room to mix, so maybe it doesn't save. Haven't used one for years now and cannot for the life of me remember whether it was even part of the patches or a setting for the whole unit.
Old 8th April 2013
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker of Rock View Post
Also, regarding the PCM70 on the output level (did a search and didn't find a step-by-step how-to), do this:

If "pgm" button is lit, hit it once. If "reg" button is lit, hit it once. When you have pgm and reg LED lights off, you are in parameter mode and ready to make adjustments. In the matrix, FX Adj is row 0, column 1, so just hit "1" on the numeric pad and it will display FX Adj level. Turn your soft knob dial to move it to "12db." It is easy to do and takes a matter of seconds once you know how. It is a global setting, so all presets (including user registers) will now have this as their output level.
Hi there,
You might want to check that your Lexicon PCM-70 is actually running in Balanced mode as opposed to unbalanced, on the back there is a push switch, this will give you more headroom and enable you to turn the Sends & Returns up enabling you to gain a better Level and performance of the unit without internally going 12db louder. If you need to go into 12db more on the Internal Convertors which are both Digital into Analog +12db -Digital then output as Analog again 1 "DAC" does this, so your "Gain Staging" might be a little low. Also remember many Lexicon Reverb Algo's do sound louder from the Left input/output in Stereo. That's just an Algorithmic function though noticeable! You might want to Check that out! as all you are doing by pushing the internal headroom is leaving you No HeadRoom for Reverb & Delay Tails etc.

[Image]https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=339190&stc=1&d=1365387605[/Image]

See the Picture I've attached it might help!

If you push the Button "In" You Should be getting +4dBu or into Max +10dBu into 600 Ohms or +16 dBu into 10K-Ohms...... That's plenty of Headroom! With the Button "Out" at -20dBu for Unbalanced you should be getting the same +16dBu although at -20 to -10dBu you'd be needing that internal 12dBu Operating Level (Maybe Do the Math!) You also want to use 1/4" TRS Jacks +4dBu not 1/4 inch TS Jacks as again you'll be running unbalanced -10dBu Flat to begin with!

Cheers
TLB.
Attached Thumbnails
Which sounds better PCM 70 or PCM 80?-lexicon-pcm-70-back-panel-imp-bal-unbalanced-etc.jpg  
Old 8th April 2013
  #76
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Doesn't it save? Sorry, no idea how to help you, as all I remember is having to always turn it up when walking into a room to mix, so maybe it doesn't save. Haven't used one for years now and cannot for the life of me remember whether it was even part of the patches or a setting for the whole unit.

Thanky you anyway
Old 8th April 2013
  #77
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Hi there,
You might want to check that your Lexicon PCM-70 is actually running in Balanced mode as opposed to unbalanced, on the back there is a push switch, this will give you more headroom and enable you to turn the Sends & Returns up enabling you to gain a better Level and performance of the unit without internally going 12db louder. If you need to go into 12db more on the Internal Convertors which are both Digital into Analog +12db -Digital then output as Analog again 1 "DAC" does this, so your "Gain Staging" might be a little low. Also remember many Lexicon Reverb Algo's do sound louder from the Left input/output in Stereo. That's just an Algorithmic function though noticeable! You might want to Check that out! as all you are doing by pushing the internal headroom is leaving you No HeadRoom for Reverb & Delay Tails etc.

[Image]https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=339190&stc=1&d=1365387605[/Image]

See the Picture I've attached it might help!

If you push the Button "In" You Should be getting +4dBu or into Max +10dBu into 600 Ohms or +16 dBu into 10K-Ohms...... That's plenty of Headroom! With the Button "Out" at -20dBu for Unbalanced you should be getting the same +16dBu although at -20 to -10dBu you'd be needing that internal 12dBu Operating Level (Maybe Do the Math!) You also want to use 1/4" TRS Jacks +4dBu not 1/4 inch TS Jacks as again you'll be running unbalanced -10dBu Flat to begin with!

Cheers
TLB.
THANK YOU!

It is in balanced mode +4db and with 12db+ i got no noise issue. I´ll check it today again.


One more thing .

There is one used PCM70 where i live in a store and i can borrow it to try.


If i link two PCM70 then i can get TRUE STEREO.


Is some of you tried that ? How it sounds ?

How sholud i connect the units ?

unit 1
PCM70 input output mono panning hard left

unit 2

PCM70 input output mono panning hard right

?

or should i sum both output channels on unit one and pan hard left

and do the same on the other ?


Thank you !
Old 8th April 2013
  #78
Lives for gear
 

Yes, you can work in that way theoretically, though not actually Algorithmically with 2 X PCM-70 units.......... as each unit has it's specific design, thus the PCM-70 will never be a "True Stereo Reverb unit" as it was never designed to be such. So....I'm afraid the answer is Nope!

Though if the unit looks good and is a good price - Grab it! Burn it in for 5 days straight - no errors or Input/Output Faults or noise and you'll have a spare unit meaning you can always cannibalise a PCM-70 should the other go down or up in smoke!

Hope that helps!
TLB.
Old 8th April 2013
  #79
mixmixmix
Guest
yes, you CAN use 2 pcm 70's for true stereo. It's been done forever. hard panning is correct way to do it.make sure to have slightly different predelays / decay times on those units for extra depth / width. search for thrillfactor posts here on GS how to achieve this. good luck

Last edited by mixmixmix; 8th April 2013 at 09:42 AM.. Reason: extra thought
Old 8th April 2013
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Doubt it, even Thrill will attest as will others that the PCM-70 does not have a True Stereo Algorithm in the box for any register, does that mean Faux Stereo can not be done, absolutely not, as it can (See my previous post), though even as these boxes reach 30 years plus finding 2 units with the exact same tolerances for Stereo and more so Phase Locked Stereo!
Nope!

That's a very narrow needle to get through.....then again, with FX units nearly anything is possible!
They are Icing on the cake for that simple reason!

Cheers
TLB.
Old 8th April 2013
  #81
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
Doubt it, even Thrill will attest as will others that the PCM-70 does not have a True Stereo Algorithm in the box for any register, does that mean Faux Stereo can not be done, absolutely not, as it can (See my previous post), though even as these boxes reach 30 years plus finding 2 units with the exact same tolerances for Stereo and more so Phase Locked Stereo!
Nope!

That's a very narrow needle to get through.....then again, with FX units nearly anything is possible!
They are Icing on the cake for that simple reason!

Cheers
TLB.


I thought that i could link two PCM70 with another PCM70 and get a true stereo image.

In the PCM70 manual chapter 5.2 says Linking two pcm70 via MIDI and load the same program at the same time..

that´s why i thougt that i can link two units as one and get one stereo unit as 224 is.

Maybe there will be a problem as you said with a phase.
Both units are PCM70 vers 2

It would be great to get Tiled room and Long Hall ala´Vangelis as a true stereo
Old 9th April 2013
  #82
Lives for gear
 

Although in very basic "Theory that will work" Algorithmically again I'd think.....No Man, that's erm..........not really going to work. 2 x Lexicon PCM-70 Units are still 2 x Lexicon PCM-70 Units unless I missed a very big and F*cking Crucial Upgrade Somewhere along the line, and Programmers and people such as MixMixMix! alongside many others have been hiding a massive Stereo secret! Though you may very well indeed get 2 loads of PCM 70 with 2 Inputs/4 outputs and have a massively expanded Amount of Spatial Information, I doubt if the PCM-70 would appear as a 224, maybe a 200 if you drop in a different A-D chip and a few Proms etc......Though they will most likely transmit Dynamic Midi and System Ex if your on Software version 2.x or 3.x of the units!

The Vangelis....... "True Stereo Long Hall Program Room" - Sounds Lovely!

-TLB-
____
Old 9th April 2013
  #83
Lives for gear
 
steins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Doesn't it save? Sorry, no idea how to help you, as all I remember is having to always turn it up when walking into a room to mix, so maybe it doesn't save. Haven't used one for years now and cannot for the life of me remember whether it was even part of the patches or a setting for the whole unit.
FWIW, mine saves the FX ADJ setting.

Stein Tore
Old 10th April 2013
  #84
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobJB06 View Post
Just had a look through some more Lexicon documents and stuff and look like I've answered my own question? For those that are interested the user manual mentions 5 extra programs were introduced in software version 8.2.1 for the 224XL, (22 programs in total) these 5 new programs are:

Rich Chamber
Dark Chamber
Inverse Room
Rich Plate
Rich Split
- It also states the algorithms were refined at 8.2.1 for the 224XL. -

That Upgrade for the 224XL Looks very much Like the PCM-60's two main Algo's "Room and Chamber" with the Push Button Variables only. A seriously lovely box if you can find one in this day and age in working condition with no noise issues, the fact this was the Last Lexicon Unit built with an Aux Send/Return designed internally was a huge loss, as not being able to Chain a PCM-42 into a PCM-70 was a trade it seems with Modernity and Midi as your gain! I love these Older PCM-41, PCM-42, PrimTime MKII and PCM-60 Units alongside the Eventide SP2016 for the programming simplicity.

I think that is a major factor in why so many PCM-70 users really desire the differing software version registers as this was the time when Lexicon needed to prove they could create a 1 Rack Unit that was fast and useable on a session - No time to think of fiddle around, just Punch In a Preset and Voila! Sadly this was seriously lacking in the PCM80/81 with Go and Pro Modes (One very big Lexicon mistake) along with the fact that the PCM-80 was arriving at the same time as the Eventide DSP4000 series in direct competition and the fact that many of the PCM-80 presets where programmed with a different era in mind.



Quote:
So,it like the Lexicon 224X (running 8.1) and 224XL (running 8.1A) probably have 17 programs:
Quote:

Bank 1: (HALLS): Concert Hall, Bright Hall, Dark Hall.
Bank 2: (ROOMS): Room, Small Room, Chamber.
Bank 3: (PLATES): Plate, Small Plate, Constant Density Plate A, Constant Density Plate B.
Bank 4 (FX): Chorus and Echo, Resonant Chords, Multiband Delay.
Bank 5 (Splits): Hall/Hall, Plate/Plate, Plate/Hall, Plate/Chorus.

Again, the PCM-80 and the PCM-70 to a Lesser extent are actually based on these Algorithms directly and their linage is obvious, more so in the PCM-80 where a touch of 480L type level admin seems to have crept into programming mode, and although the PCM-80 Chambers might not be so extensive, the Modulation movement on the PCM-80 compared to the PCM-70 seems to offer a far better degree of Control over the various Algorithms and 224XL like programs, then the PCM-70. I personally think the PCM-70 is so loved as so many have had the unit racked and in use for 25 years plus, so much like an H3000 type thing, it's always just been there.

The PCM-70 in all software revisions from 1.3 can do Tiled Room, as can the PCM-80. Really the main differences seem to be Hardware/Convertor related Issues in the PCM-70 with the signal dropping off @ 15kHz. Then moving into the PCM-80 20-Hz -20-kHz (which you can always roll off internally you end up with the 224XL Algorithms and plenty of Delay time!) The Expansion PCMCIA Cards of Dual FX and Pitch FX Cards really make the PCM-80 an almost Synthesizer like programable Reverb/FX unit as the 224XL was.In the Lexicon of Lexicon the PCM-80 was a dirty word never uttered until understood, an almost bypassed unit save for those whom bought them new at $2990.00 odd Bucks!


Quote:
I think you can now get that without the major outlay and risk of a 224XL (Well..... near in the "Spirit" of the Algorithms created!) Certainly there is nothing like a 224XL and it's Fan blasting away in the back of a Machine room w/ a Larc up on the console! Those were indeed cutting edge days! Though to ask someone to give up a PCM-70. That would indeed be a Sin as again it's a product of it's time from the 80's into the early 90's!

The Person whom in 2013-16 Creates the Replica "Best Of Lexicon Algorithms" or calls the unit something like "The Lexicon Retrospective" and can actually throw all "The Best Of Ever Made" in a single box with a Variable Bit rate and and a variable ARU/Lexichip type of arrangement unit that can emulate the Span of Famous Lexicon Algorithms and it's various hardware conversions such as the original Convertors from the VariSpeech 72 to the electrical anomalies and noise of the 224/XL units and include all Algo's from CD Plate, Plus the early PCM 41 & 42's (Reverse Mod Unit Algo's as well) into the PrimeTimes, with the 200, 2400, 224/X/XL, PCM-60, 70, 80, 300, 480L and all the various response curves and Eq Points people have come to know and love in a Hardware Mixing 3 Unit High Box, will indeed be a very Wealthy Person, as indeed may Lexicon be again for licensing and/or building such a massive Leviathan!

I certainly don't see this as being out of reach. If Fairlight can Reinvent the CMI Series IIX and the 8,12,16, to 20-24 bit Responses that their original units used to use why not a Lexicon Unit? Fairlight are doing this while giving more modern users higher Algorithms (Think 480L Surround, 960L & LARES) and Sample rates in 2FS 96kHz and above I'm pretty sure it would be a universal Hit! I can Feel the Pre-Orders as I type!
Im curious to know what the difference between the sound of the Lexicon 224X with software 8.1 and the 224XL with the early 8.1A software is?
(224XL started at 8.1A software before going up to the latest 8.2.1). Looking at the manual it appears the programs were ONLY refined at version 8.2.1 for the 224XL so maybe software 8.1 for 224X and 8.1A for the 224XL sound the same? Hardware was changed (more ram) as soon as the the LARC was fitted to the 224X..I wonder if 8.1A for the 224XL sounds the same as 8.1 for the 224X, anyone? It would be great to have the early 224X sound!
- TLB -
Maybe RobjB06 will be re-incarnated?
Old 10th April 2013
  #85
Kas
Gear Maniac
 

I got 2 PCM70's sitting here but ive never tried to use in stereo. I use my PCM81 for that. The 70 is great for getting that 70 thing but the 81 is way better for general purpose "getting it to sit right" uses. The 70 deosnt get used here as much, the 81 is on all the time.
Old 10th April 2013
  #86
Lives for gear
 

Yeah......I'd agree with that, certainly in Today's more Modern Mixing scenarios, as quite often 24 Bit AES can just plumb into a DAW quite simply. The PCM-80/81 has a certain clean feel to it spatially where as the PCM-70 seems to sit more quietly in the background, more so on deeper and heavy material such as Indie Rock and Slammin' Drums etc. Modulation also is a huge deal for me when going into certain Algo's and registers, the PCM-70 lacks that movement that the 80/81 continually produces, most likely another reason why I prefer the PCM80/81 with regard to Pre-Delay, Reverb Time, HF Decay and the actual tails of Reverbs that move away when material is in front, though wrap around after a phrase is over again! A continuing Motif or Backing vox is the type of thing I'm talking about as well.
Old 10th April 2013
  #87
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Rich Chamber rules.
Old 10th April 2013
  #88
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kas View Post
I got 2 PCM70's sitting here but ive never tried to use in stereo. I use my PCM81 for that. The 70 is great for getting that 70 thing but the 81 is way better for general purpose "getting it to sit right" uses. The 70 deosnt get used here as much, the 81 is on all the time.
Try the 2 PCM-70's with Separate Aux Sends, and Return them to 4 close faders, I'd love to see if the same Algo Differs wildly, Nulls and/or ends up being Phasey!
Old 10th April 2013
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Rich Chamber rules.
Agreed on the 224/XL, 300 and 480L....The PCM91 is a strange take....Never felt the Power of Rich Plate their! Not even on the PCM-70 - Tiled Room feels a touch still to me....Though ho hum?
Like anything & everything!
Guess It's what your used to!

Then Again YMMV
Old 12th April 2013
  #90
Gear Nut
 
Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Rich Chamber rules.
I like the Rich Chamber in the 70 a lot, too.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
88fingerz / So much gear, so little time
24
84K / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
1
kevk / So much gear, so little time
1

Forum Jump
Forum Jump