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Trident Series 80 "Fadex" fader mod question ???
Old 6th September 2007
  #1
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Trident Series 80 "Fadex" fader mod question ???

I've got a series 80 with 32 Fadex fader modules instead of the normal P & G ones that are usually on most 80(B)s in the channel strip section. The "Remix Master" fader is also one of these Fadex modules with an extremely antiquated "Allison Research" VCA style small PCB board with op amps. Connected to this via some mounts and screws on each module is the actual "Audio Fad" fader that is free of all this type of crap that I am not interested in. Like the P & G faders on the monitor section of this board, these Audio fad faders have 3 wires coming out of them that are soldered to some traces on the Fadex PCB. The Fadex PCBs plug into edge card connectors that are subsequently connected (via a long ribbon cable) thru each other module until the cable reaches the Master Fadex module.

My question is: can I simply clip the 3 wires that attach from each Audiofad fader to the Fadex PCB (with the VCA crap in it), and then connect those wires to the other wires coming from each Molex connector on the motherboard that corresponds to each channel strip PCB ? Sorry if the question sounds long winded, but i am not exactly a career tech and so i worded it as best i could.

When I look at the P & G faders on the monitor section, they are so beautiful to me because its' simply a fader with 3 wires coming out of it connected to the channel. I am having op amp issues with a bunch of these Fadex modules, and even though they are cheap to replace I'd rather not have the audio in the VCA circuit at all if possible. The good news (I hope) is that I have 32 Audiofad faders in great condition that if completely disconnected from the fadex modules will work as faders should IMO.

Can anyone with some Trident 80 knowledge shed some light on how I might go about doing this mod (if it is indeed possible) ???
Old 6th September 2007
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

I dont have the trident knowledge... but I just cant believe anyone is rocking the fadex faders. I worked on a neotek console in the early to mid 90's that had those... taking up two tracks on the 24 track for automation, and the update pass had to be one FULL pass, even just for a little tweak in the last chorus... you had to start at the top and run the whole pass, bouncing to 23 from 24 and back for hours... I know you would be able to switch back, but I dont know how. I was just marveling at the fact that less than 15 years ago, I was sitting in front of those faders thankful that I could make some moves in my mix... crazy. some help I turned out to be for you though...
Old 6th September 2007
  #3
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

I don't have the definitive answer but I'd guess that the elements in those faders would be set up for VCA use only. I would put a meter on them and see what the impedence is and what the taper is.
I'm saying this 'cause the P&G faders on my board have a seperate fader element for VCA control and a strictly audio element for use when bypassing the VCA's. A couple of meter readings should give you a clue if they are usable.
Old 6th September 2007
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Hamilton View Post
I dont have the trident knowledge... but I just cant believe anyone is rocking the fadex faders. I worked on a neotek console in the early to mid 90's that had those... taking up two tracks on the 24 track for automation, and the update pass had to be one FULL pass, even just for a little tweak in the last chorus... you had to start at the top and run the whole pass, bouncing to 23 from 24 and back for hours... I know you would be able to switch back, but I dont know how. I was just marveling at the fact that less than 15 years ago, I was sitting in front of those faders thankful that I could make some moves in my mix... crazy. some help I turned out to be for you though...

"I know you would be able to switch back, but I dont know how. "

Yeah, I am also 99.99% confident that there must be a way to BYPASS it completely so that ONLY the AudioFad fader is having any effect on the channel strip signal, and doing only what a fader should do IMO which is control the volume and NOT have the signal pass thru it in any way. This is why I LOVE the simplicity of the P & Gs !!!
Old 6th September 2007
  #5
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

here's a schematic for the fadex module from Trident

http://waltzingbear.com/Schematics/T..._Schematic.pdf
Old 6th September 2007
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
I don't have the definitive answer but I'd guess that the elements in those faders would be set up for VCA use only. I would put a meter on them and see what the impedence is and what the taper is.
I'm saying this 'cause the P&G faders on my board have a seperate fader element for VCA control and a strictly audio element for use when bypassing the VCA's. A couple of meter readings should give you a clue if they are usable.

Wow, so it seems you are saying that these particular AudioFad faders I have might be ones they designed exclusively for use with the VCA system ?

I HOPE that is not the case, as these faders really bother me. When you depress the "update" button on each one the audio gets like 10db louder than when it is in the "read" mode. Plus, the op amps on about 18 of them ( I have 32) are bunk which is drivin me frickin nuts. I know its these 2 little op amps on each VCA sub-board, because when I swap out the ICs from a working fader the bad fader suddenly works fine.


Here is a link to a diagram of the particular Fadex fader module I have: http://waltzingbear.com/Schematics/Trident.html

Can you tell if a "bypass" mod is possible by reading this (if you can read it, because it is all greek to me).

I know I may be asking a bit much, but it would be sincerely appreciated if you could tell me. I know i can swap out with all new ICs and probably get all the bad faders working again, but I'd truly rather eliminate the VCA completely if possible.

BTW, all of my AudioFad faders each have the same number/letter sequence that reads(written by hand): 124 op 060 Lin Lok

I appreciate your advice about using a meter to read impedance and taper, but i do not have a meter and would likely not know how to use it anyway as of yet.


thanks !
Old 6th September 2007
  #7
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

First the disclaimer: I am not a real tech just a studio owner with 35+ years of experience. So most of my learning is "guerilla warfare".
That said: I took a look at the schematic and the upper left corner shows "fader" which I would assume is the fader in question. It shows it to be 10K (the impedence, 10k is a common value in this application...this is good) but it also says LINEAR. This is no good and what I expected. Good for running control voltages thru, unusable for audio. Notice the designation on your faders: 124 op 060 Lin Lok. The LIN is for probably for LINEAR.
IMO you're hosed.....but there's still a chance that I'm wrong and I'm sure someone with more tech knowledge will come along and set us straight if I'm incorrect.
In any case you could stick some P&G audio faders in there and be done with it....pricey though.
Old 6th September 2007
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
First the disclaimer: I am not a real tech just a studio owner with 35+ years of experience. So most of my learning is "guerilla warfare".
That said: I took a look at the schematic and the upper left corner shows "fader" which I would assume is the fader in question. It shows it to be 10K (the impedence, 10k is a common value in this application...this is good) but it also says LINEAR. This is no good and what I expected. Good for running control voltages thru, unusable for audio. Notice the designation on your faders: 124 op 060 Lin Lok. The LIN is for probably for LINEAR.
IMO you're hosed.....but there's still a chance that I'm wrong and I'm sure someone with more tech knowledge will come along and set us straight if I'm incorrect.
In any case you could stick some P&G audio faders in there and be done with it....pricey though.
Thanks Rick! Yeah, I'd love the P & Gs but I've already got so much dough sunk into this console that it's really not feasible at the moment.

I think I possibly got a real bad taste in my mouth with these faders because the first time I powered up the console almost 1/2 the newly recapped channel strips were out, and 1 of the faders seems stuck on full volume where sliding up or down has no effect.

I guess all of this is likely related to the 30+ year old ICs in these Fadex modules ? Perhaps if i do a global re-chipping everythink will be fine, and I will retain the "group" linking function which will be handy for mixing.

I was told by a couple of respectable techs that the "Allison Research" VCA was one of the best sounding ones.
Old 6th September 2007
  #9
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

It's a big hurt but I'd dump the Fadex modules in a heartbeat. There is probably a retrofit with some used faders or less expensive faders out there...so many boards have been dumped on the market that I'm sure there is a solution that won't break the bank. I would expect that there will be nothing but heartache with those old vca's in there. The Trident 80 is a classic board and the Fadex is really a dinosoar that should be replaced. Good luck.
Old 6th September 2007
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
It's a big hurt but I'd dump the Fadex modules in a heartbeat. There is probably a retrofit with some used faders or less expensive faders out there...so many boards have been dumped on the market that I'm sure there is a solution that won't break the bank. I would expect that there will be nothing but heartache with those old vca's in there. The Trident 80 is a classic board and the Fadex is really a dinosoar that should be replaced. Good luck.
Yeah, I hear you. On a brighter note, i did have a tech come over recently and he read that diagram and he showed me how to cut 2 little grey wires going to each fadex, and splice them together which he claims (according to the diagram) will at least bypass the Allison Research VCA section of the Fadex module.

I don't know how much crap those other op amps (about 8 of them)are causing in the circuit though ?

The cheapest route for replacement seems to be the Alps faders available at TridentAudioSpares for $15 each I believe. Are these any good ?
Old 6th September 2007
  #11
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Old 6th September 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
First the disclaimer: I am not a real tech just a studio owner with 35+ years of experience. So most of my learning is "guerilla warfare".
That said: I took a look at the schematic and the upper left corner shows "fader" which I would assume is the fader in question. It shows it to be 10K (the impedence, 10k is a common value in this application...this is good) but it also says LINEAR. This is no good and what I expected. Good for running control voltages thru, unusable for audio. Notice the designation on your faders: 124 op 060 Lin Lok. The LIN is for probably for LINEAR.
IMO you're hosed.....but there's still a chance that I'm wrong and I'm sure someone with more tech knowledge will come along and set us straight if I'm incorrect.
In any case you could stick some P&G audio faders in there and be done with it....pricey though.

Hi Rick,

I was cruising the net and found this link: http://www.manualmanor.50megs.com/cg...dentFadex2.jpg

This is the exact Fadex module that I have 32 of. This was used on a TSM, but what i noticed is that it appears a mod was done where the 3 wires to the Audiofad fader were desoldered from the Fadex PCB and connected to a molex connector. They are selling this TSM board which they say was Eric Clapton's and also used by Duran Duran.

They say that an "update" mod was done to the Fadex faders in 1995, which I assume to be the molex connector mod in the photo. I can't see any other reason for this mod other than the fact that the intention was to completely eliminate the Fadex circuitry and connect the 10k linear Audiofad fader directly to the channel strip. My series 80 motherboard has these type molex connectors on all 32 of the slots where the PCB input strips plug in.

Here is the link to all the photos and description of that TSM console if you are interested: http://www.manualmanor.50megs.com/Trident.html

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on this one. And thanks again for your time!
Old 6th September 2007
  #13
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

I'd post this in the Geekslutz forum. There's gotta be one of those guys that have first hand experience with Fadex systems. I'm only making guesses based on general electronics knowledge and you need someone with real technical chops.
Old 7th September 2007
  #14
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