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Has anyone ever disputed a chargeback on Paypal? Mas­ter­ing Plugins
Old 31st August 2007
  #1
Lives for gear
Has anyone ever disputed a chargeback on Paypal?

I feel this is a pertinent issue here in the high end forum because I sell a ton of high end pieces...thank god this is just a dispute for $200...

I just got a chargeback on Paypal issued from a buyer here on Gearslutz. It was issued for the sell of an ilok authorization and transfer for Digidesign Velvet. This was six months ago. I confirmed with this guy (who shall remain nameless unless he doesn't clear this up) that the code worked and I assume he's been using it ever since. He's a plus 1200 post member...I've emailed and pm'd him with no response so far.
So, my question is, has anyone dealt with this before? How long should a paypal buyer have the right to dispute a claim? I didn't sell him a six month warranty! It either worked or it didn't. It frightens me that I've sold tens of thousands of dollars on Paypal and all the buyer has to do is buy it with a credit card and then dispute the charge and Paypal immediately holds the funds - and it can take up to 75 days to resolve. If this is the way Paypal works, I'm not using it any more...
Old 31st August 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
This is absolutely crazy that Paypal would punish the seller (me) by holding MY MONEY six months after the sale. I don't care if the credit card company is disputing the claim, they should have to provide evidence that the transaction didn't happen before Paypal holds my money...And SIX MONTHS LATER? Come on...
Why do I have the feeling that this is going to end badly for me. I'll tell you what, if this GS member doesn't make this right, I'm going to make sure everybody on the internet knows he's a CHEAT...
Old 31st August 2007
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Kris's Avatar
Did the guy ever contact you with an issue? If not then out the bastard. Why wait?
Old 31st August 2007
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Paypal is SOOOOOOOOOOO heavily slanted towards the buyer, that the caveat emptor is reversed to "seller beware". When a buyer is disputing something, from what I can tell, it's pretty much money back with no questions asked. This may be primarily due to the fact that it's going through a credit card and not be entirely related to Paypal policies. This is part of the appeal of credit cards, in that the buyer has that protection built in...but it can also easily be abused. I had a similar situation. It was small dollar, but I had e-mail correspondence, shipping verification, published positive e-bay feedback - something like "quick shipping, good product", and the guy disputes it two months later. I thought it was a write-off, but I did get my money put back into my Paypal account about a month or two after submitting all the evidence on my side.
Old 31st August 2007
  #5
Lives for gear
No - I haven't heard a word...I don't think there IS an issue. His last post on here was August 27th, so he's been around and so have I. If he had an issue, he could have contacted me first and I would have even given a refund as long as I got my ilok code back (even six months later) - but I find out by logging on to the PP site and see that they've put a hold on $190...

My other issue is that this is a six month old issue. I didn't sell him a warranty. But all that is moot anyway because this was a purchase for an ilok code. I didn't sell him anything that could break...I've copied our correspondence from private mail and given it to the dispute department at PP. (BTW - he confirms it works in the PM)...But am I just SOL for $200 for the next 75 days while they figure out he's a thief?

I'm going to give him the weekend to respond and if he doesn't I'm going to plaster who it is on here...
Old 31st August 2007
  #6
Lives for gear
Paypal told me that this was not their policy, but the credit card dispute trumps them...Then what the hell good is Paypal??? I've often thought I should take my money out of PP as soon as it arrives...guess this confirms it...
Old 31st August 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Sounds like a crazy situation


I say Name and Shame
Old 31st August 2007
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Sirocco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
Paypal told me that this was not their policy, but the credit card dispute trumps them...Then what the hell good is Paypal??? I've often thought I should take my money out of PP as soon as it arrives...guess this confirms it...
that is what i do
Old 31st August 2007
  #9
Lives for gear
 

I'm not defending pp, but yeah, the buyer is totally protected. That's why i have no issues buying whatever on ebay from sellers with little feedback. But, if a dispute were put in by the buyer, the money doesn't just go to their acct. It's held on both ends. The money is in limbo and PP holds it.
I shipped a Les Paul to Canada nearly a year ago and it went USPS. They lost it. So, me and the buyer were in constant contact about it. It was a mess...I couldn't put in a lost claim with USPS until 30 days. The buyer had to put in his claim with PP around that same time as well. Then USPS has 60 or 90 days to find the item. It was right at the end of this time that they finally found the item and sent it. Whew.... Had they not finally found it, they would have claimed it lost on that 90 day anniversary. Then, they have an additional 60 days to pay the claim. So, do the math....30+90+60= 6 months. That's 6 months that I'm out of my money and the buyer doesn't have their item.

I'm telling this story to say that it's not just PP that's bad here. It's really just risky shopping from individuals over the net/mail. Sure you can get some good deals, but if/when something like this happens, you can be out. Remember too, this is with two honest folks. Throw in a dishonest buyer/seller and you can really be out some money for good.

later,

m
Old 31st August 2007
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
Paypal told me that this was not their policy, but the credit card dispute trumps them...Then what the hell good is Paypal??? I've often thought I should take my money out of PP as soon as it arrives...guess this confirms it...
If you pull the money out...as I do...they'll put a negative on your acct. I'm not sure on the timeframe, but I'm guessing at some point, they have the right to pull the money back from your bank or cc that's tied to their acct.

m
Old 31st August 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Had a similar situation. Almost 6 months after the fact, the cc was reported as stolen an all transactions were refunded and deducted from my account pending proof of delivery.

I provided delivery receipt, positive feedback and was STILL REFUSED the money due to me. This went on for about 2 months when I finally got ahold of the buyer. He was astonished at all that had transpired and was very apologetic and immediately sent me a money order.

I got lucky but it really made me wary of pp. The crazy thing is....at the time I had about a $5 balance in my account so pp just made it a negative balance....which meant anytime I wanted to use it, I would effectively be forced to pay them money which wasn't owned.

To top it off, after about the 2nd-3rd month, paypal started sending me collection notices demanding the money and telling me if I did not pay, they would cancel my account and turn me over to an independent collections firm...

AND THIS WAS AFTER PROVING DELIVERY OF THE ITEM!!!!!!

I still use them but they truly suck and sellers should beware.
Old 31st August 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Sirocco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
If you pull the money out...as I do...they'll put a negative on your acct. I'm not sure on the timeframe, but I'm guessing at some point, they have the right to pull the money back from your bank or cc that's tied to their acct.

m
but at least theres no overdraft fees!
Old 31st August 2007
  #13
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
Then, they have an additional 60 days to pay the claim. So, do the math....30+90+60= 6 months. That's 6 months that I'm out of my money and the buyer doesn't have their item.
These are the exact reasons why M-A doesn't use USPS or PayPal... we've made a few exceptions here and there but only when we've known the client for a good long time. We did take PayPal for a very brief period but between their fees and policies they make the credit card companies look benevolent!!!

The way PayPal does business is exeptionally frightening to anyone who reads their policies... buyer or seller.

Peace.
Old 31st August 2007
  #14
Lives for gear
Yeah - I think I'm done with Paypal...
Old 31st August 2007
  #15
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephent28 View Post
Had a similar situation. Almost 6 months after the fact, the cc was reported as stolen an all transactions were refunded and deducted from my account pending proof of delivery.
This is why I'm not going to out this guy until I've given him a couple of days to respond...he might not even know this is happening...but I'm thinking he probably does...
Old 31st August 2007
  #16
We had an issue years ago with Paypal and didn't do business with them for a very long time. Then, they revamped a lot of their policies and brought forward some very cool new ways of doing business on the web. Since we've worked with their new development tools used Paypal as the back-end gateway for our entire website shopping cart, we haven't had one issue. Customers are paying with ease and can choose how they wish to pay without even informing us (i.e. put half on a credit card and the other half on their bank account). We get the seller protection by adhering to all of the rules/regulations set forth by their security team and all is well.

We looked into all kinds of options for processing payments through our website and no one offered any sort of seller protection that didn't also come with a huge hassle for the end user attached to it. We actually approached Lloyd's of London to setup an insurance policy against credit card fraud/loss and they refused to even write the policy because of the massive risk involved. The bottom line is (and this is from the response I've received) our customers feel comfortable that they are protected and likewise we feel comfortable that we are protected. So far so good and it's been just about a year now without a hassle/problem.

There are always situations where things go wrong and things are handled incorrectly. Those are indeed unfortunate, but Paypal has millions upon millions of users. If it was truly as bad as this thread is making it out to be, they'd be out of business pretty quickly because no one would be using them to transact money.
Old 31st August 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
alexstringer's Avatar
 

The key with Paypal is to deal between verified members with confirmed address.
This gives you optimum coverage.
Unfortunately this status is only recognized within the US/Canada and UK.
Old 31st August 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
I always conform to their seller protection policies, but in this case, this was not "physical goods"...it was an authorization code. Their seller protection policy doesn't cover that...
Old 31st August 2007
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
These are the exact reasons why M-A doesn't use USPS or PayPal... we've made a few exceptions here and there but only when we've known the client for a good long time. We did take PayPal for a very brief period but between their fees and policies they make the credit card companies look benevolent!!!

The way PayPal does business is exeptionally frightening to anyone who reads their policies... buyer or seller.

Peace.
Yeah, I only use USPS for international shipments since it's so much cheaper. Actually, after that guitar incident, I've told everyone that I'll only send Airmail Priority. Any longer than that and just too many chances to get lost/damaged.

later,

m
Old 31st August 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
If you pull the money out...as I do...they'll put a negative on your acct. I'm not sure on the timeframe, but I'm guessing at some point, they have the right to pull the money back from your bank or cc that's tied to their acct.

m

Actually no, the worst paypal can do to you on a negative balance is report you to creditors. It's in their EULA that you HAVE to authorize them to take anything out of your bank account for any reason. I would know, my account had a negative balacnce for almost 6 months while I was disputing a BS claim and they emailed me on a regular basis trying to recover the negative balance. Luckily in the end it all worked out.
Old 31st August 2007
  #21
.

paypal EXTRACTED FUNDS from my friend's paypal-linked bank account,

when MY FRIEND'S BANK had ALREADY REPORTED THE FUNDS IN HIS ACCOUNT,

after a buyer withdrew the promised purchase money from his own bank,
and then DISAPPEARED WITH MY FRIEND'S GEAR THAT HE NEVER PAID FOR.


my friend subsequently SUED paypal, and, LOST, in a california court.


so, after losing both his gear and his money,

my friend, who's done a TON of e-bay business,

will never use pay-pal again, and he's spreading the word...



...
Old 31st August 2007
  #22
We've been using Paypal for close to 8 years (in addition to having a completely seperate company that processes our over the phone credit card sales in addition to Paypal). It's always been very smooth. But the merchant (or seller) has to understand that the address has to be confirmed or there is no merchant protection, and Paypal will only confirm US and Canadian accounts. Everyone else in the world is automatically non confirmed. Sometimes it's just very convenient a customer to use Paypal, so many people prefer it these days. If the address is non confirmed we just ask for further proof of identity, which is very easy, and it's a smooth transaction for everyone. If the seller has proof of sending the item (which we always do), there is never a problem.
Old 1st September 2007
  #23
Lives for gear
I just got an email from the guy and he said he's clearing it all up. He said PP said someone issued the chargeback, but he didn't...Anyway, he apologized and a little later I received and email from PP saying he had canceled the claim. I didn't want to say this guy's name because we had talked a bunch via pm and he seemed like a really nice guy...I'm glad I didn't...looks like he's taken care of it...Still don't have the money back, but it looks like it's on the way...
Old 1st September 2007
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnkenn View Post
I feel this is a pertinent issue here in the high end forum because I sell a ton of high end pieces...thank god this is just a dispute for $200...

I just got a chargeback on Paypal issued from a buyer here on Gearslutz. It was issued for the sell of an ilok authorization and transfer for Digidesign Velvet. This was six months ago. I confirmed with this guy (who shall remain nameless unless he doesn't clear this up) that the code worked and I assume he's been using it ever since. He's a plus 1200 post member...I've emailed and pm'd him with no response so far.
So, my question is, has anyone dealt with this before? How long should a paypal buyer have the right to dispute a claim? I didn't sell him a six month warranty! It either worked or it didn't. It frightens me that I've sold tens of thousands of dollars on Paypal and all the buyer has to do is buy it with a credit card and then dispute the charge and Paypal immediately holds the funds - and it can take up to 75 days to resolve. If this is the way Paypal works, I'm not using it any more...
so your saying someone could buy somthing off me, pay with paypal then 6 months later i could have an issue?
Old 1st September 2007
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut View Post
so your saying someone could buy somthing off me, pay with paypal then 6 months later i could have an issue?
If that is the case, that is crazy!
Old 1st September 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
Well, no...if it's a physical item and you follow the Paypal Seller Protection guidelines, you're fine...here they are...11.3 is what you have to follow...



1. 11. Seller Protection Policy.
1.

11.1 Benefits. The Seller Protection Policy, which applies only to Verified Business and Premier Accounts, reimburses sellers of certain types of goods who follow certain sound selling practices. If your transaction meets the qualification requirements for the Seller Protection Policy, PayPal will reimburse you for the amount of the Chargeback or Reversal and, if applicable, waive the Chargeback Fee.
2.

11.2 Coverage. The Seller Protection Policy is limited to the following payout amounts per year for combined eligible Chargebacks and Reversals:
* $5,000.00 USD
* $6,500.00 CAD
* €4,000.00 EUR
* £3,250.00 GBP
* ¥550,000 JPY
* $7,000.00 AUD
* 6,500.00 CHF
* 3,300.00 NOK

* 40,000.00 SEK
* 31,000.00 DKK
* 16,000.00 PLN
* 1,080,000 HUF
* 120,000.00 CZK
* $8,100.00 SGD
* $38,000.00 HKD
* $7,700.00 NZD

Please note that the combined annual total may not exceed the limit for any one currency.

A Chargeback is covered if it was due to non-receipt of merchandise, or an unauthorized payment. A Reversal is covered if it was due to an unauthorized payment. The Seller Protection Policy does not cover Claims for Significantly Not as Described or for non-receipt of merchandise, or sales of intangible goods, services, or licenses for digital content.
*

11.3 Qualification Requirements. In order to qualify for coverage under the Seller Protection Policy, you must meet the following requirements:
1. You must have a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account at the time of the transaction,

2. The transaction must be between a US, UK or Canadian buyer and a US, UK or Canadian seller,

3. The payment must be listed as "Seller Protection Policy Eligible" on the "Transaction Details" page, or cleared by PayPal through Payment Review,

4. You must accept a single payment from one PayPal Account for the purchase,

5. You must not charge a surcharge for accepting PayPal,

6. You must ship the purchased item to the address listed on the "Transaction Details" page, and that address must be identified as a Confirmed Address,

7. You must ship the item to the buyer within 7 Days of receiving payment,

8. You must have trackable online proof of delivery from an approved shipper to the address on the "Transaction Details" page. For transactions involving $250.00 USD or more, you must provide a proof of receipt that was signed or otherwise acknowledged by the buyer and can be viewed online, (If you paid in a currency other than US dollars, the following amounts apply for this section: $325.00 CAD, €200.00 EUR, £150.00 GBP, ¥28000.00 JPY, $350.00 AUD, 330.00 CHF, 1,600.00 NOK, 2,000.00 SEK, 1,500.00 DKK, 800.00 PLN, 55000.00 HUF, 6,000.00 CZK, $400.00 SGD, $2,000.00 HKD, $380.00 NZD), and

9. You must respond to PayPal's requests for information within the time period PayPal specifies.

Please note that in order to qualify for our Seller Protection Policy you must ship the item as required in this section. If you hand deliver an item, or provide delivery in any manner other than required in this section, your transaction will not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy.
*

11.4 Process. If there is a Chargeback or Reversal, and the seller's account is a Verified Business or Premier Account, we will place a temporary hold on the transaction amount, and evaluate the transaction to determine whether it is eligible for our Seller Protection Policy. If the seller's Account is not Verified, or is a Personal Account, then the amount of the payment will be automatically debited by PayPal, and PayPal will transfer the funds back to the buyer's Account, as appropriate. If we determine that the transaction qualifies for Seller Protection, we will lift the temporary hold and restore your access to the funds. Please note that eligibility under the Seller Protection Policy is not a requirement to win a Claim filed by a buyer under section 13.
Old 6th September 2007
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Even after the buyer clears it up, you still will have to wait until 75 days after the chargeback disupte was accepted by the credit card company to get paid - even after the money has been paid by the buyer. The bank and/or CC company holds onto it for as along as they are allowed. I got bit in this situation and they buyer was all apologetic and tried to get his CC company to pay up early, but they didn't. In fact, they were a few days later than the limit allowed them to be, but they got away with it.

-Dale
Old 6th September 2007
  #28
Lives for gear
Yeah - exactly what is happening to me...bull****e...
Old 29th September 2007
  #29
Lives for gear
So - this guy told me he was going to mail me a check for the $200 about 20 days ago. I still haven't gotten it. I emailed him a couple days ago and still no reply. It looks like his last post on this board was when he initiated the bogus chargeback on me. I'm really disappointed in this guy. One more day and I'm letting everyone know who it is.
Old 29th September 2007
  #30
Lives for gear
 
allencollins's Avatar
 

I had and incident with paypal 3 years ago. I won't get into the details
but I was getting screwed. Nonone on the customer service level would help
me. I went back and forth with CS for like two months.

Finally I said enough is enough. I poked around their site and found the CEO's name. I called a couple times and asked for the guy and of course the receptionist wouldn't patch me through. But one day it dawned on me...........Around this time, my day job was doing voice mail programming at this billion dollar+ company in Boston. I figured our CEO is in the phone mail directory system why wouldn't the CEO of paypal's right????

So I called their 800 number did a dial by name typed in the CEO's last name and yup the phone rang and he answered!!! I chewed this guy out big time over the phone. You guys know how relentless I can be. He experienced the wrath of AC in realtime with my loud voice and all. He would have had an easier time with Al Capone. Well he gave up what I was looking for. Next day the head of paypal security calls me!! on the phone and my situation was resolved just like that. I'm sure they took this guys name out of the dial by name but you never know. try to get him on the phone.
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