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Best Deal in Audio Education?? Audio Interfaces
Old 25th August 2007
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Best Deal in Audio Education??

I posted this same topic at the homerecording forum earlier, but since a lot of people here constantly ask questions about Rec. Arts programs, I thought I would share it here as well:



Ok, check it out - a couple of years ago, i took two semester-long classes on recording arts at my local community college(Cuesta College, San Luis Obispo, CA). Near the end of the curriculum, I started looking into schools such as Full Sail, CRAS, and many of the others that offer some sort of degree or certification in Recording Arts.

Of course, these schools all cost at least $15,000 - and that's for the ones that don't actually give you a degree in anything. I thought at the time "Damn, my school's a pretty damn good deal!". The studio was equipped with some great mics(M149, U87's, 414's, royer 121's, etc.) and preamps(1073, UA 2-610, Focusrite 110, Grace 801, + more). Mixing was done on both a Mackie D8B and Soundcraft Ghost, through Genelec and JBL monitors. Best was the fact that the class is taught by an extremely knowledgeable individual - although all of the mixing techniques he shares come from a jazz perspective.

I thought that for $27/unit - a total of $54/semester + books, it had to be one of the best deals in audio education. Then I started the 1st day of the just-added 3rd semester course on Monday, and my previous conclusions have been confirmed. Since I was last there, they've scrapped the D8B and Ghost for a Digi D-Command console, and have added a U47 to the mic arsenal. They've also added 16 channels of API 3124+, along with some great outboard gear to go along with all of the great outboard stuff that was already there.

In addition, there will also be a 4th semester course being offered starting next spring, and the school will be awarding a Recording Arts program certification upon completion. With this new class, there will be 28 Digi 003 systems being installed to take pressure off of the main control room, which now has 3 classes of students fighting for mixing time. This will also allow the school to offer the 200-level ProTools certification. Best of all, the cost is still $54/class. That makes a total cost of $216 for 2 years of courses, plus about $100 of books. In all honesty, where the hell else can you get ProTools certified for that kind of green?

I realize there's probably better places to learn this stuff, and MAYBE even some cheaper...but I thought I might share this, since I see a lot of people asking a lot of questions about audio education. For around the price of a few SM57's, you can get an education that likely rivals that of many of the "top" schools in the industry - and still take courses that are applicable to a degree other than recording arts or music.
Old 25th August 2007
  #2
Hello... High-end? McFly?
Old 25th August 2007
  #3
.

yes, unfortunately, this is the area of gearslutz,

where folks don't care about wasting money, or getting "deals".


sounds like you're doing great there.


just make your business plan.

do the career financials / balance sheets, yada, yada.


income, expenses.....income, expenses, ad infinitum....and DEBT...


because it doesn't matter HOW great a deal you're getting,

if you have NO WORK when you leave.


i wish you the best of luck.




btw - the title of this thread made me laugh - because unless you're fr*gg*n jay-z,

you'd BETTER be getting a "great deal" on education -

otherwise, you're more than likely to be in debt for a LONG time.


cheers.

.
Old 25th August 2007
  #4
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
IronKlad - be sure to check out homerecordingbootcamp.com
Old 25th August 2007
  #5
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
The best deal in audio education is to become an intern somewhere or a "general runner" and work your way through the ranks... other than that there are no "deals" in audio education as you'll only ever get out of it what you put into it.

Peace.
Old 25th August 2007
  #6
Lives for gear
Damn....bear me to it.
Old 25th August 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 

i didn't mean to get anyone's panties in a bunch by posting in the wrong forum - i figured this might have merit in the high-end forum, seeing how it deals with opportunities for one to have access to and gain experience with high-end gear...and not have to spend $40,000 in the process. if the moderators see it differently, they can feel free to move it.

and i really wish that there some studios around here large enough to need runners or assistants of some sort...but even the commercial facilities in this area are small in scope, and are comprised of an owner, and possibly one assistant

however i am applying for a job at a local radio station as a production assistant, where i'd be spending my days recording and editing radio ads. while definitely not my dream job, it's a step in the right direction, and is an opportunity that wouldn't otherwise be available if i didn't have the training and experience that i have thus far.
Old 26th August 2007
  #8
Gear Nut
 
wirerecording's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
The best deal in audio education is to become an intern somewhere or a "general runner" and work your way through the ranks... other than that there are no "deals" in audio education as you'll only ever get out of it what you put into it.

Peace.
Fletcher is absolutely right, take what ever money you would spend on school, get an M-box (or equivalent) and survive for as long as possible while interning at a working studio. You can teach a monkey to push buttons, but learning music/personalities/human dynamics/artistic taste will get you were you need to go

stuart
Old 26th August 2007
  #9
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

walter sear
Old 26th August 2007
  #10
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I teach one class at Nashville State Community College. I was recruited by a friend who was an engineer at Stax. We both see teaching as an opportunity to give something back to kids who couldn't even think about affording a private recording school.
Old 27th August 2007
  #11
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Best Deal in Audio Education??
Buy your own gear and practice, practice, practice.

Old 27th August 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
 

believe me, i've bought plenty gear of my own already. in the 2 years since originally completing the courses there, i have invested almost every spare dollar i've had into recording, and have had the opportunity to work with a handful of local artists in that time.

i've also been using my home studio to produce an album of my own...but now i think i'll be using the studio at school to finish that endeavor.

Quote:
take what ever money you would spend on school, get an M-box (or equivalent) and survive for as long as possible while interning at a working studio
in all honesty, why would i(ar anyone) want to produce music on a $300 piece of not-that-great gear....when the same $300 can give me access to a well-equipped studio for 2 years? ****, for $300, you probably can't rent a U47 for a day.
Old 27th August 2007
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Igotsoul4u's Avatar
The best deal is to be an intern and save your money for a home setup. If you get a macpro with logic and protools your only talkin around 5k for a setup you can use to educate yourself and make money once you get better. People came up through the industry without schools for many decades. I think people will respect you more if you do it the old fashion way. You will also have a better appreciation for the "hustle" that is the music biz. it also sucks to spend 15-20k just to find out you hate the living **** out of not having a life, being unstable financially, and many other weird things that schools don't elaborate on.
Old 27th August 2007
  #14
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

There aren't a lot of internships available today. I agree nothing is more important however some school background will definitely make a difference in getting an internship.
Old 27th August 2007
  #15
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
The best deal in audio education is to become an intern somewhere or a "general runner" and work your way through the ranks...
Absolutely!!! Plus read every book you can find about audio recording cover to cover 5 times and do what ever you can to be a part of making records every chance you get (most of those opportunities you need to make yourself)

Don't be scared off by trying to work in a small studio. In a small studio the intern is usually part of the recording process, in a big studio he is usually part of the coffee making process.
Old 27th August 2007
  #16
Gear Nut
 
wirerecording's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironklad Audio View Post
believe me, i've bought plenty gear of my own already. in the 2 years since originally completing the courses there, i have invested almost every spare dollar i've had into recording, and have had the opportunity to work with a handful of local artists in that time.

i've also been using my home studio to produce an album of my own...but now i think i'll be using the studio at school to finish that endeavor.



in all honesty, why would i(ar anyone) want to produce music on a $300 piece of not-that-great gear....when the same $300 can give me access to a well-equipped studio for 2 years? ****, for $300, you probably can't rent a U47 for a day.

I'm not sure i am clear about your point, but the $300/ not-that-great-gear is a learning tool that you have access to 100% of the time. I get new interns every 3-4 months, and the better on Pro Tools they are, the more they can learn other things about the studio. Cheap gear is a learning tool, not always and income producer.

stuart
Old 27th August 2007
  #17
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironklad Audio View Post
.
Im so jealous of you Americans. Theres so much more going on in America education-wise. By the time you're 30, you've gained so much knowledge and understanding and expercience. You only live once, and I never got that chance... What I'd do if I had the chance is attend those classes (for free right?), and because theory is just a small part imho. I'd hang out with the guys and girls you take classes from and just be in the studio
fiddling with mics and speakers and mixing desks and effects as much as I can to gain experience.

In Holland, nothing is free. You have to pay the full motherload for a weak ass course wich wont make you a better musician, just a better technician. It's not fair.

one
Old 27th August 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
 
soundbarnfool's Avatar
 

Is Walter looking for an intern? If so I would jump on that! That's worth 10,000 degrees in audio engineering.
Old 27th August 2007
  #19
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironklad Audio View Post
these schools all cost at least $15,000 - and that's for the ones that don't actually give you a degree in anything.
LOL, I'm in the wrong business. Tell you what - come visit me for an intensive week of one-on-one tutoring. I'll teach you everything you need to know about audio and recording and music for only $5,000. I won't give you a degree either, but you'll learn more than any school I'm aware of, in 1/100th the time, for one third the cost. heh

--Ethan
Old 27th August 2007
  #20
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True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
Don't be scared off by trying to work in a small studio. In a small studio the intern is usually part of the recording process, in a big studio he is usually part of the coffee making process.
Good Advice

I laughed out loud but I couldn't agree more.

The only problem with a buying your own gear and recording as much as possible is that you will surprised how hard it is to find serious takers. If you are a musician at least you can practice on yourself until you get halfway competent at the job.

Working in a small busy studio will teach you boatloads about the process and fast - definitely worthwhile.
Old 27th August 2007
  #21
Gear Nut
 
slaveern's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
LOL, I'm in the wrong business. Tell you what - come visit me for an intensive week of one-on-one tutoring. I'll teach you everything you need to know about audio and recording and music for only $5,000. I won't give you a degree either, but you'll learn more than any school I'm aware of, in 1/100th the time, for one third the cost. heh

--Ethan
Ethan you may just be kidding but I think there may be takers if you offer such a service.
Old 28th August 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Don't be scared off by trying to work in a small studio.
i'd rather work at a small studio than a massive commercial facility

however, there's no job opportunities at any of these places. after getting a better grasp on the HD platform, i'm going to try to talk one of the local places into letting me freelance there...the place has pretty good rooms and gear, but the mixes i hear coming out of there pretty much suck, and i'm convinced that i can do better myself.
Old 28th August 2007
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by slaveern View Post
Ethan you may just be kidding but I think there may be takers if you offer such a service.
As I was writing that I realized that I really should do this. I'm in the process now of freeing up my time a bit by making my associate Scott Veenstra a full time employee of RealTraps. As soon as I finish my current video project - I've been working on it for more than a year so far! - I may indeed focus more on audio education.

--Ethan
Old 28th August 2007
  #24
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
As I was writing that I realized that I really should do this. I'm in the process now of freeing up my time a bit by making my associate Scott Veenstra a full time employee of RealTraps. As soon as I finish my current video project - I've been working on it for more than a year so far! - I may indeed focus more on audio education.

--Ethan
Haha, I'd take a course if you let me (after a demo). But I live in Holland...
Nothing beats experience..
Old 29th August 2007
  #25
Here for the gear
 

okay so Im currently going to be attending full sail this october and all I hear is negative feed back from this website, Is there really no money at all in this bussiness? I have read threads and people are saying of how much debt their in from going there and seem to really be struggling. I really need to know how much money on average an audio engineer would make hourly/weekly, please someone list what I should expect to see pay wise as a being someone kind of young getting into this bussiness. You people have me kinda scared that I'm going to be digging to deep a whole for myself by making the decision to go there. I defenitly don't want to be in debt up to my ears, would it be a wiser choice to look for a job in post production or a more business side of the music industry? any feedback is much appreciated.
Old 29th August 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stegosaurus View Post
okay so Im currently going to be attending full sail this october and all I hear is negative feed back from this website, Is there really no money at all in this bussiness? I have read threads and people are saying of how much debt their in from going there and seem to really be struggling. I really need to know how much money on average an audio engineer would make hourly/weekly, please someone list what I should expect to see pay wise as a being someone kind of young getting into this bussiness. You people have me kinda scared that I'm going to be digging to deep a whole for myself by making the decision to go there. I defenitly don't want to be in debt up to my ears, would it be a wiser choice to look for a job in post production or a more business side of the music industry? any feedback is much appreciated.
no one will hire an engineer because they have been to an engineering school
in my almost 5 years of running the maid's room where i have been lucky
enough to record and mix some truly world class projects, the finest engineers
by leaps and bounds are those that come out of sear sound - they are the best -
i am not going to give a list of names - but, they are the best - they record the best
projects - thay have steady work .

find a studio that works on tape and intern there..........
the idea of paying someone to learn how to buy into gear
industry hype and record digital is tragic to me........

there is no money in this business
this business is refinding itself

don't buy gear
don't build a digital studio
no one needs them
5 years from now
the only commercial studios
will be analog....
go to l.a.
there are more rooms still
running there than anywhere....

be well

- jack
Old 29th August 2007
  #27
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustiThaSnowman View Post
Haha, I'd take a course if you let me (after a demo). But I live in Holland...
Nothing beats experience..
I should have mentioned this yesterday:

I'm now making a how-to mixing DVD and plan to sell it for the very low price of $18.99. It's still a month or two away from completion, but I'll announce it in the New Products section when it's ready. In some ways it's not as ambitious as Charles Dye's Mix it Like a Record because it's not 3 hours long. heh But in other ways it's even more ambitious because the example project includes much more than just pop music instruments. It also shows how I made my upcoming music video, so there will be a lot of video shooting and editing advice too.

--Ethan
Old 30th August 2007
  #28
Gear Nut
 
Goreski's Avatar
 

read this website page...

I put up a page on my website on Audio Education and schools... you might want to read it...]
link: Which Recording School should you go to??

don't buy your own gear - go book someone else's studio for a while first
Goreski
Old 30th August 2007
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Tibbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
The best deal in audio education is to become an intern somewhere or a "general runner" and work your way through the ranks... other than that there are no "deals" in audio education as you'll only ever get out of it what you put into it.

Peace.
I agree. I was talking with some kids outside Berklee the other day that were taking various summer programs. They were wondering if they should go to Berklee for engineering or whatever. I told them it could be worth it if they made it worth it, but that applies to almost anything you do.

This obviously isn't an industry that you need a degree to become an engineer, so why try?

Taking courses at non-accredited schools is even more of a waste of money. I've talked to several people that teach things, and basically its just an extra revenue source for them. While the ship is going down, at least make a buck trying to teach others.

I mean, even George Massenburg doesn't have a degree in it. He dropped out of John Hopkins. You don't need a degree or formal education in this field. You need experience. And the experience you get at the schools isn't real world experience no matter how you cut it.
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