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help me solve my console woes Control Surfaces
Old 22nd August 2007
  #1
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numrologst's Avatar
help me solve my console woes

Because of its deteriorating condition, I am going to be getting rid of my 4064 g+... I am having crazy trouble trying to figure out what to replace it with.

My main concerns are being able to track analog and digital...

So my first three options are smaller boutique boards... The Daking 1112, The Wunderbar, The new api. I like the ideas of all these consoles. There are a few things I would change on each of them, but I could live with some of the things I don't like.

My biggest reservation with these are obviously cost for a small board... The configurations that I want...32 channels are in the $90k price range. Tons of mic pres that I will use, but don't need 24-32 of them at the same time.

2) My second option is going with a tonelux shadow mix system. $65k for 32 channel... But no micpres or eq's... So when I add a mix of daking, tonelux, and api eq's... I am again at $90k.

3)Option 3 is a hybrid setup... Digidesign D-command 24 channel. Which I think runs around $30k. Plus 3 chandler minimixers, brings it to around $45k. And then I can add 24-32 channels of outboard eq and that brings it up to about $75k... Then I add a toft 24 channel atb strictly for tracking to tape. That brings it to right under $80k.

I can't seem to decide. I've worked it out in my head and on paper for the last month. And I weighed the consequences of each way and I just can't make sense of it. I need you guys' help, i am torn.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #2
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numrologst's Avatar
i keep leaning toward the hybrid approach with the dcomamnd/mini mixer...

My only hang up has to do with protools hardware inserts. I like the fact of using the dcommand... But to use outboard with a summing mixer... I have alot of ad/da conversions... I had to d/a to outboard---a/d back in---then d/a again to the summing mixer... That just seems way to convoluted.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #3
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stevep's Avatar
Refurbish the G ???


just a thought......



Old 22nd August 2007
  #4
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numrologst's Avatar
yeah... It's more than just the mechanicals of it...It's not unknown work that has to be done... It's recap, power supply work, replace a few pots and switches.

The big deal about the g is that it's not really going to fit in the new studio. My new room is much much much nicer than my old room, but the control room is much smaller. The G in there would be totally overwhelming.

Plus, I'm not really digging it as much as I used to.

So the SSL really has to go.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #5
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stevep's Avatar
understand



.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #6
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

I thought you had a Neotek?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #7
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numrologst's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka View Post
I thought you had a Neotek?
I do! The neotek is at my house
Old 22nd August 2007
  #8
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just thinking out loud here but 1st of all, with how many channels could you live comfortably? with a 4064 you've gotten used to many, so a hybrid setup i think is how you have to go. will you be happy doing most everything ITB and stemming to 16 or 32 channels? if so, how many analog EQs would you settle for? if your budget is around $80/90K, i would think of a dcommand (i think you can get them for about $20-25K now but i could be wrong) + a loaded 16 channel API/Wunder/Daking - like board. maybe you could talk someone into making you a board without the center section since you'll have an X.Mon, or if you use the center section on the console you can skip buying the X.Mon, but the AFL ****e and other facilities on the X.mon are very cool. if you need more analog channels you can always add them later. and there's always the AWS, but you can't add more channels later, unless you want to go with outboard racks. and since you named things like API, Daking and Wunder, and after your comments on the 4064 it looks like you want to go back to the future... so i won't even mention that.

and you could always wait til AES to see what's coming down the pike. sorry this doesn't help much.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #9
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I could live with 32 inputs, and no less than 24 eq's. Good points raal.

What do you guys think about all the conversions necessary to pull off a outboard and summing situation?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #10
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numrologst's Avatar
I have been thinking of loading up a chandler rack with 12 tg channels...
I really like the hybrid idea...but it's a bit hard to comprehend the workflow/sonics right now.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
I could live with 32 inputs, and no less than 24 eq's. Good points raal.

What do you guys think about all the conversions necessary to pull off a outboard and summing situation?
i have a D.control + outboard gear. making a new normalled patch now for most of the stuff, for a total of 32 inserts (2 X aurora 16) + 16 DAs (apogee 16XDA) for parallel stuff, going to a folcrom. but this new little API thing has me thinkin'. my room is small too so i don't have alot of options space-wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
I really like the hybrid idea...but it's a bit hard to comprehend the workflow/sonics right now.
really isn't that big a deal. some people like digi 192s fine, others prefer aurora 16. both support PT's ADC. for analog parallel stuff, going to a folcrom or 'null' patching (but then you lose ADAs), or using the eventide plug in, all work.

others prefer things apogee 16X for example but then you have to nudge manually, which is also not a big deal (most of the time it isn't even necessary unless you split groups of things like drums between different converters, so don't do that and you'll be fine), mytec, lavry, prism, etc. you have to take a listen and decide, but the logistics to get everything working these days is no biggie.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #12
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numrologst's Avatar
raal: so you always do the da to outboard... ad back in... da to folcrom... Not to much effect on the source?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
raal: so you always do the da to outboard... ad back in... da to folcrom... Not to much effect on the source?
don't want to start a converter war thing so i'm staying out of that one, but suffice it to say i'm satisfied with the sound of my rig. as fletcher says YMMV, so take the time to listen to different converters and you be the judge.

btw i don't always insert outboard. sometimes i go out DAs and stay out there, but i'm not frightened to insert anymore, let's put it that way.

having said all this, that frikkin little API has me goin'....
Old 22nd August 2007
  #14
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numrologst's Avatar
yeah I dont want to start a converter argument either... I have a lyn aurora, mytek 8x192, and 3 apogee 16x/s...
Old 22nd August 2007
  #15
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

36 ch Audient ASP 8024 ?
Old 22nd August 2007
  #16
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About the API 1608, I was thinking that it's a drag that it's not inline...but I thought that a "not bad" work around might be to get a couple of API 8200A line mixers for an additional 16 inputs for mix.

It would be a pretty clean set up. The upside is that if your happy the way things are going you can get automation, and expand it with another 16 channel bucket.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #17
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robmix's Avatar
I love my Daking !!!!!! 32 inputs plus the 8 channel submixer and the 8 returns. It's generally enough for me though I tend to submix BGV's in the box and sometimes guitars if I got guitar happy during tracking. The sound is huge, and I've done several comparisons of my mixes with "other" name brand mixers The only thing I would add would be some fader automation . . . . . and maybe 32 more channels and a daking comp on every channel !!!!!
Old 23rd August 2007
  #18
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i talked to paul at tonelux. Great guy. He gave me some great ideas with the tonelux package.

Regarding the idea of adding an api 8200 to the api 1608...Are they making them interfaceable or is it taking the stereo output of the console to the first to inputs on the 8200---then using 6 more stereo sub and out of the 8200?

If that's the case... I never thought about that... I could have a 12 channel wunder sidecar then a tonelux summing mixer run the stereo out of the wunder to the tonelux and use that for summing.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #19
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robmix's Avatar
I thought about similar setups with my Daking. Maybe a chandler or Wunder sidecar fed into the 8 channel submixer on the Daking. Yum !!!!!!!!
Old 23rd August 2007
  #20
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Silvertone's Avatar
I know where you can get a 750K 72 input 9000J for 175K, if you want to stay in SSL land.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #21
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ulysses's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by numrologst View Post
But to use outboard with a summing mixer... I have alot of ad/da conversions... I had to d/a to outboard---a/d back in---then d/a again to the summing mixer...
Why? You can feed your D/A to the outboard, then the outboard to the summing device. Why go back into the computer just to come right back out again? If everything comes out the D/A exactly once, regardless of whether it's going through any outboard, then the latency issue disappears completely.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #22
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jomo1234's Avatar
 

Did Millbrook Sound ever sell their Daking Console? If not you should contact them. I think they were asking somewhere in the 50K range for a beautifully maintained Daking.

Here is a link to the ad. Re-Equipping both rooms....Daking for sale.
Old 23rd August 2007
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ulysses View Post
Why? You can feed your D/A to the outboard, then the outboard to the summing device. Why go back into the computer just to come right back out again? If everything comes out the D/A exactly once, regardless of whether it's going through any outboard, then the latency issue disappears completely.
normally I wouldn't. Just out of d/a through outboard into summing mixer.

But to make it work without faders on a summing box, you have to make the outboard as a pre fader insert, then back in... So there is a way to adjust volume and do automation.
Old 25th August 2007
  #24
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I knew you were going to say that. I hear that concern a lot from people who are considering a dedicated summing solution, but I don't hear it from people who are actually using them.
In practice, automating faders in the DAW before going out to the outboard gear and into the summing device works just great. People are especially concerned about the effect fader moves will have on compressor settings, but if you think about it, doing your fader moves before you hit the compressor will only help you - they're both kind of doing the same thing, and the fader moves only help you stay in the sweet spot of the compressor.
And if you occasionally feel the need to adjust post-processing volume anyway, just use the gain knob on the outboard gear.
Old 25th August 2007
  #25
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numrologst's Avatar
good way to think of it ulysses. I hadn't really thought about it like that. I can see that working for me 75-80% of the time...Thanks for the input
Old 2nd September 2007
  #26
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indie's Avatar
 

Has anybody priced out a 16 channel Daking Console??? I'd love to see how that compares (price) with the 50k API!!
Old 2nd September 2007
  #27
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i have a 32 x 8 x 24 daking console that is about to be upgraded to
a 40 x 8 x 24 setup - i love this board - everyone who works here loves
this board - it sounds amazing - it sounds warm and fat going to the hd rig, and for me, more importantly
it sounds amazing with my studer A827 -
if you feel like getting on a cheap flight up to manhattan pm me and let me know.

this board sounds great
it is super quiet
i have had major label clients and producers
rent 10 mic pres and send all ten mic pres back
the thing that is great anout having 24 mic pres is
being able to do a real session with 10 pieces
playing live to 2" 16 track - that's a great option

geoff is a really good guy, a really nice guy and he
stands behind his work in a way that is exemplary
i may build another studio
i would only build it around another daking
console
i believe records sound best being made on good sounding
consoles



be well


- jack
Old 2nd September 2007
  #28
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
i have a 32 x 8 x 24 daking console that is about to be upgraded to
a 40 x 8 x 24 setup - i love this board - everyone who works here loves
this board - it sounds amazing - it sounds warm and fat going to the hd rig, and for me, more importantly
it sounds amazing with my studer A827 -
if you feel like getting on a cheap flight up to manhattan pm me and let me know.

this board sounds great
it is super quiet
i have had major label clients and producers
rent 10 mic pres and send all ten mic pres back
the thing that is great anout having 24 mic pres is
being able to do a real session with 10 pieces
playing live to 2" 16 track - that's a great option

geoff is a really good guy, a really nice guy and he
stands behind his work in a way that is exemplary
i may build another studio
i would only build it around another daking
console
i believe records sound best being made on good sounding
consoles



be well


- jack
I have some questions about the Daking if you don't mind.

What kind of tape returns does it have? The website also says that there are only 4 auxes. This seems really low. What sort of aux returns are there? Also, are the busses only accessible via a switch? And there are only 8 busses, correct?

Thanks.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
i believe records sound best being made on good sounding consoles
i've never heard a Daking but if it really is 'today's A Range' it must absolutely kill. i think i saw a pic of your board someplace. looks very cool from what i remember.

a coupla years ago at AES Geoff said he was working on an instanty resetable console. an A Range with reset... whoa.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #30
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom View Post
i have a 32 x 8 x 24 daking console that is about to be upgraded to
a 40 x 8 x 24 setup - i love this board - everyone who works here loves
this board - it sounds amazing - it sounds warm and fat going to the hd rig, and for me, more importantly
it sounds amazing with my studer A827 -
if you feel like getting on a cheap flight up to manhattan pm me and let me know.

this board sounds great
it is super quiet
i have had major label clients and producers
rent 10 mic pres and send all ten mic pres back
the thing that is great anout having 24 mic pres is
being able to do a real session with 10 pieces
playing live to 2" 16 track - that's a great option

geoff is a really good guy, a really nice guy and he
stands behind his work in a way that is exemplary
i may build another studio
i would only build it around another daking
console
i believe records sound best being made on good sounding
consoles



be well


- jack
Oh man, I would love to check that console out sometime. Do you happen to know how much a 16 channel console would be?
I used the pre/eq module once on electric gtr and was floored, so I bet the console kills.
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