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Why Don't UA or Avalon make consoles Mixers (Analog)
Old 21st August 2007
  #31
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stagefright13's Avatar
 

I have NO experience with Avalon products. But god damn do they look great! But I thought one of the few 610 consoles were used on Van Halen 1. I have 2 solo 610's and love them! But wouldn't record every track with them.

Or maybe I will try it once. I did upgrade mine with nice NOS tubes tho. Gives them an almost 3D sound. I would think an all 610 console would sound like vynil. However it is spelled. Like a record on a turntable
Old 21st August 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bexarametric View Post
Really? I was not aware of that.
I think it was contracted for a single client, really. A sort of one off custom console. It didn't get very far, though.
Old 21st August 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka View Post
I think it was contracted for a single client, really. A sort of one off custom console. It didn't get very far, though.
Interesting. I would love to have the money to do that.
Old 21st August 2007
  #34
DRC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Wow. I wonder if you can have those EQ's racked up? I like the EQ on my 737. If Avalon made a unit that was just the EQ section of the 737 (the E3's look pretty similar) for 1/3 of the price Id be all over them. Of course having them racked up would probably cost as much as 4 of the units.
Old 21st August 2007
  #36
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miqer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post

Norah must have read this thread!
Old 21st August 2007
  #37
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Guys, you are missing a few points here -

There is a GREAT deal more to designing a console than just the eq and the mic pre. In fact, those are the easy parts. There are 1001 different designs to copy (or be 'inspired' by) for those things, but what about routing?

Routing is FAR more complex than you may imagine. For example, how do you keep noise levels down, when 56 op-amps are feeding into an aux send?

Power management - those DC currents have a long way to go and drift easily. Also you are talking about high-current, low-noise design. Easily achieved on just one strip, but when you are dealing with 56 strips, all sorts of new problems occurr.

Mechanical build - just making sure that all the bits fit inside properly is difficult, then you have to make sure they all fit together - and STAY that way over many years.

Monitor section - 5.1, 7.1, 4.0 stereo and mono must all be available and reliable.

Of course, all sorts of clever people have solved all the above problems in the high-current, low-noise design field (Neve, Pope, Langley, Juengling and the folks at SSL) but it still takes hundreds and hundreds of engineer hours to develop and good engineers are not cheap!

And then we come to the knotty problem of the market place -

1. Any new brand has to create an image and a profile (advertising, fairs, demos) and that all can cost millions BEFORE you have sold one desk!

2. Get to the back of the line! SSL, Neve, API and a whole host of many, many others were there first and they have a better profile than any new boy.

3. 24-7 technical support. Channel strips don't need tech support. Desks do. And you need engineers on the ground, able to reach any desk that has developed a nose-bleed within 24 hours.

4. There are so many good, used deks on the market that the mid-price market ($50k to $200k) is now failing badly.

and last but not least

5. The market for studio desks is overcrowded and is more or less non-existant. What little there is, is taken by SSL, API and Neve.
Old 21st August 2007
  #38
TRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Routing is FAR more complex than you may imagine. For example, how do you keep noise levels down, when 56 op-amps are feeding into an aux send?
How do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Power management - those DC currents have a long way to go and drift easily. Also you are talking about high-current, low-noise design. Easily achieved on just one strip, but when you are dealing with 56 strips, all sorts of new problems occurr.
Like? I'd be interested to hear of the problems you have experienced and how you fixed them.

It'd be nice to see some more technical discussion here. Just curious.
-T
Old 21st August 2007
  #39
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Like?
Grounding issues, noise, distortion, clicks and pops when pushing switches, crosstalk, RF interference, hum... the list goes on.

I have mucho respect for console designers, they sure know their ****e.
Old 21st August 2007
  #40
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You guys bring up interesting points about the technical issues and logistics. That being said, I think a company like UA (among the most popular and well-respected in the industry) could pull it off. It wouldn't be easy, but they could do it.
Old 21st August 2007
  #41
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

I dare to say LA-2A's on every channel in a console is close to impossible if not totally impossible. Insane maybe is a better word.
Old 21st August 2007
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
I dare to say LA-2A's on every channel in a console is close to impossible if not totally impossible. Insane maybe is a better word.
Oh certainly. It doesn't make my wish less cool. There's not much realistic about this thread. Its just a wish.Nothing more.
Old 21st August 2007
  #43
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
I dare to say LA-2A's on every channel in a console is close to impossible if not totally impossible. Insane maybe is a better word.
Yup. If you flip down the front of an LA-2A you can see why it's so tall.

What's the difference between having a racked compressor patched to a channel vs. having it mounted in the channel's console slot?

I think 500-series fever has got people thinking funny.

I just want consoles to look more like:
Attached Thumbnails
Why Don't UA or Avalon make consoles-bi-concorde-cockpit.jpg  
Old 21st August 2007
  #44
TRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
Grounding issues, noise, distortion, clicks and pops when pushing switches, crosstalk, RF interference, hum... the list goes on.

I have mucho respect for console designers, they sure know their ****e.
Oh yeah totally - I was playing devils advocate. I'm well aware of the issues you listed. Just wondered if The Byre would like to share some experiences/knowledge.

He seems to be an experienced fellow and I'd like to hear more from him.

Tom
Old 21st August 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper View Post
I just want consoles to look more like:
Me too.

I wish everything was 4U and had bigass knobs and VUs. The whole purpose of aesthetics for studio gear is to make the artist feel like they're in some kind of fantastical submarine, right?

Personally, I don't find the look of the Avalons attractive, but I love the UA stuff.
Old 21st August 2007
  #46
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gainreduction's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Oh yeah totally - I was playing devils advocate. I'm well aware of the issues you listed. Just wondered if The Byre would like to share some experiences/knowledge.

He seems to be an experienced fellow and I'd like to hear more from him.

Tom
Yep, me too. thumbsup
Old 21st August 2007
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Hummmm....can you say M3-"500" mic pre and E3-"500" eq...!....
Old 21st August 2007
  #48
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
When UniversalAudio did make a console..it was a much simpler time...less channels...less tracks...less routing.

Even then the LA-2s & 1176's were rack mounted boxes
Old 21st August 2007
  #49
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s_sibs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRC View Post
Wow. I wonder if you can have those EQ's racked up? I like the EQ on my 737. If Avalon made a unit that was just the EQ section of the 737 (the E3's look pretty similar) for 1/3 of the price Id be all over them. Of course having them racked up would probably cost as much as 4 of the units.
On the Avalon site:

Avalon is currently developing a 19" wide rack mount chassis and power supply system that will run multiple M3 and E3 modules simultaneously.
Old 21st August 2007
  #50
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32 channels of 610 plus LA-2A would be SO warm.





I mean it, who could afford that AC bill?
Old 21st August 2007
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS View Post
When UniversalAudio did make a console..it was a much simpler time...less channels...less tracks...less routing.

Even then the LA-2s & 1176's were rack mounted boxes
I agree. Maybe they should try and revisit those times, and not try to make it a " swiss-army knife" type console. There would be a market for it. The problem with trying to make a "hybrid" console, you have to compromise in components/design or make it too expensive that you price it right out of the market you are trying to target!..( YMMV)
Old 21st August 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachhunt View Post
32 channels of 610 plus LA-2A would be SO warm.





I mean it, who could afford that AC bill?
I'm not sure when I could use all those LA-2s. I think maybe I could use four or five if if I got really creative.
Old 21st August 2007
  #53
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Max...you bring up an interesting point....and maybe the start of another thread.

I believe when studios had 2 LA2's...2 1176's some LA3's, & a Fairchild...the engineers learned where to best use these few devices.

Overuse of Plug-ins have ruined the skills of engineers...as well as the overall sonics of music today.Theres an entire generation of engineers with no clue. Every plug-in degrades the sound...but as you are destroying sonics 1/2 a percent each time...who notices. And when you got 20 LA2's on a mix...the unique character of that device gets lost....and your mix is like a vanilla milkshake...bland.


Not even a cherry on top
Old 22nd August 2007
  #54
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bexarametric View Post
Also, UA consoles seemed to work just fine on Sinatra and the Beach Boys (back when UA consoles were around). But I do see what you're saying about the 610.

1) UA didn't build or sell many complete consoles; I'm remembering a number around a dozen. They weren't what one would call successful at the time. The claim to fame is marketing BS IMO. I'm pretty sure many Beach Boys records were made with Langevin AM-5116-B preamps also.

2) The new 610 definitely ain't the original 610. So forget the advertising hooey they spout and try to judge it on it's own merits.
Old 22nd August 2007
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
Consoles are expensive to design, build, ship, and are hard to sell.
exactly.

Old 22nd August 2007
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
Walter Sear is a trip...
I learned more from listening to him talk in 5 minutes than all 4 years of college
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