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Is there really any need to pay for genuine Neve? Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 20th August 2007
  #1
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stevetgn's Avatar
Is there really any need to pay for genuine Neve?

This is a question not a statement!

With superb products about from the likes of Chandler, BAE and Aurora Audio to name a few, is there any need to pay the extremely high-end price for a Neve 1073 or 1081? Are the Neves so much better or is it because they are the "GENUINE ARTICLE"

If you need a 1073 would you be just as well getting a Chandler LTD-1 for example or the BAE instead of a 1081?
Old 20th August 2007
  #2
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
You wouldn't ask that question if you owned the real deal.
The short answer is yes. There is no substitute for the quality and sound of a real 1073.
Old 20th August 2007
  #3
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

If you have the means, it's always better to have the real deal.
Old 20th August 2007
  #4
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LOL! Tony beat me to it!heh
Old 20th August 2007
  #5
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I own several BA 1073's. They are awesome ! The difference with the real Neve's is so subtle that it didn't justify spending twice the money to get the real ones. I'm very happy with my decision!
BA also offer outstanding customer support, so you can be sure he'll take good care of you if a problem occurs. Whereas if you buy a Neve that needs to be recapped or serviced eventually, be ready to spend more big bucks!
I'm not trying to tell you not to buy a real Neve, but at this level, your decision has to get along with your budget, my friend.
Old 20th August 2007
  #6
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wirerecording's Avatar
Neve

i have found some of the remake Neves to sound quite good compared to the originals. that being said i feel that much of what is called the neve sound comes from the consoles summing amps and transformers. mixing thru an 80 series Neve is a whole other level of Neve-ness that can't be attained thru input modules alone

stuart
Old 20th August 2007
  #7
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i have to agree with tony S. since i have both the real thing and a clone...there is a difference. clones sound newer where the reall thaing ahs this vintage thing happening that both me and my clients (who don't know or care who or what a neve is) can hear.

ej
Old 20th August 2007
  #8
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stevetgn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer View Post
I own several BA 1073's. They are awesome ! The difference with the real Neve's is so subtle that it didn't justify spending twice the money to get the real ones. I'm very happy with my decision!
BA also offer outstanding customer support, so you can be sure he'll take good care of you if a problem occurs. Whereas if you buy a Neve that needs to be recapped or serviced eventually, be ready to spend more big bucks!
Exactly my point, Why pay double when someone makes another indistinguishable product.

Geoff Tanner of Aurora Audio worked for Neve longer than most of the guys that now work for AMS-Neve, and at the time the original 1073/81 were being made!

Most of the top Neve replicas like Chandler etc all use the same components sourced from the same manufacturers!

I would love some genuine Neve just so I could say I had it, but that the point its my ego that would need it not my audio results!
Old 20th August 2007
  #9
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CaptCrunch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
Exactly my point, Why pay double when someone makes another indistinguishable product.

Geoff Tanner of Aurora Audio worked for Neve longer than most of the guys that now work for AMS-Neve, and at the time the original 1073/81 were being made!

Most of the top Neve replicas like Chandler etc all use the same components sourced from the same manufacturers!


I would love some genuine Neve just so I could say I had it, but that the point its my ego that would need it not my audio results!

Having a real Neve is much like a resume highlight; its inclusion elevates the perceived quality. Does it sound different? Probably. Is it worth the pricing premium? Certainly it is when you are trying to unload it in the classifieds or pitching the studio to an A&R monkey or other uninformed lifeforms.
Old 20th August 2007
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
Is it worth the pricing premium? Certainly it is when you are trying to unload it in the classifieds or pitching the studio to an A&R monkey or other uninformed lifeforms.
Valid point.
All I want though is a 1073 module for vocals and a couple of 1081 for drum OH/Rooms. I'm not trying to impress any one with anything other than my audio results... Do I really need to pay for Neve? If I do then so be it, but I'm not saving all that money if I don't need to.
Old 20th August 2007
  #11
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

If you are trying to impress yourself... get the tool you need to get the job done.

If other people are paying you for your studio time, get the Neve. Its always an easier sell.
Old 20th August 2007
  #12
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"I would love some genuine Neve just so I could say I had it, but that the point its my ego that would need it not my audio results!"

You probably nailed it there.

And true to other equipment too...I have some nice vintage guitars ("pre and post CBS" (another myth!) Fenders, Mosrites, Gibson... Can I have a good sounding track using re-issues...Yes sure. I still prefer using my old guitars because I'm lucky to have them but i don't use them as psychological baby blankets.
Old 20th August 2007
  #13
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
I'm not trying to impress any one with anything other than my audio results... Do I really need to pay for Neve?
AMS/Neve is not ridicuosly expensive after all and it offers real, Neve 1073 sound.
Old original vintage Neve will cost more and if you already search, try more, find your sound, you mic, your pre.
1073 can be the best thing for many and just good thing for some. Many times, more often than not, other great pres are way better choice for task.

In reality you may record the best sounding album of all times with any of these (and more) preamps:

Portico pre
A Design pre
Great River pre
Daking pre
Wunder pre
Old 20th August 2007
  #14
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
This is a question not a statement!

...

Exactly my point, Why pay double when someone makes another indistinguishable product.

so it was not, in fact, a question; it was a statement. heh

if it *were* a question, i would say that i disagree with the premise of your second statement; the products are very much distinguishable. the 'real' neve has a pedigree, serious and undeniable cachet, and a sound all unto itself. whether that sound is better is debatable. whether the cachet is hyped is irrelevant, because hyped or not it still has the cachet and in transactions where that matters, that's all that matters.

you seem to be leaning towards getting something non-neve, and are looking for support for the idea that buying the neve is irrational; i think that kind of analysis is only going to cause you continued uncertainty because there will always be people who disagree and have good reason for doing so. instead, just ask yourself whether a) you can afford the neve, and if so b) whether you are willing to pay the premium for a piece of gear you will *never* regret buying, you will never have to explain is 'just as good' (that's the power of the cachet), and will always sound amazing on the source no matter what position the various knobs are in.

yes, the inflated price of the neve is partly due to the sound and mostly due to the aura around the name. whether it is worth it is an intensely personal choice, and one you have to be at peace with regardless of how others feel. if you can do it, i say do it, life is too long to live with compromises that we don't have to make. if you can't do it, figure out what you *can* do, do it, and move on.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 20th August 2007
  #15
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There are similarities for sure but IMHO they don't sound the same.

I've just come to the end of quite a long personal preamp shootout (a few months actually - the odd day here and there) covering a lot of names from Germanium to Forssell and IMO the differences between a real Neve and the copies/neve-inspired designs are not that subtle. Now whether you prefer one or the other is up to you but the pres, at least the ones I heard, all have their own characteristic sound. I'm sure a lot comes down to type of music you make and the mics you already own (in my case Gefell, Neumann + Peluso).

I bought a 1073dpa about halfway through so I guess that was my reference. I haven't heard the BAE model but the Aurora, for example, has quite a different high end characteristic. Slightly brighter and a bit more 'squishy' overall when driven than the 1073dpa. Very musical though, clearly a great pre but just not the same as a 1073 if that's what you like.

The only other make I'm going with along with the 1073dpa is the Great River to cover cleaner sounds + the DI is excellent. To my ears, the GR was the least 1073 sounding of all the Neve inspired designs but it's just an excellent, open-sounding pre in it's own right. Love it.

Why do I like the 1073dpa so much? It just gives me the sound I've been looking for. Maybe the sound in your head is different.

Old 20th August 2007
  #16
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CaptCrunch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
Valid point.
All I want though is a 1073 module for vocals and a couple of 1081 for drum OH/Rooms. I'm not trying to impress any one with anything other than my audio results... Do I really need to pay for Neve? If I do then so be it, but I'm not saving all that money if I don't need to.

Something like a vintage V72 and Neve 1073DPA paired with a great two channel EQ would yield satisfying results and save cash. Doing this, you get to pitch buzzwords galore! Neve and Telefunken together: Holy Cow! Clients will froth at the thought !
Old 20th August 2007
  #17
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptCrunch View Post
Something like a vintage V72 and Neve 1073DPA paired with a great two channel EQ would yield satisfying results and save cash. Doing this, you get to pitch buzzwords galore! Neve and Telefunken together: Holy Cow! Clients will froth at the thought !
Most clients don't know what a Neve or a Telefunken is.
Old 20th August 2007
  #18
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
Exactly my point, Why pay double when someone makes another indistinguishable product.

Geoff Tanner of Aurora Audio worked for Neve longer than most of the guys that now work for AMS-Neve, and at the time the original 1073/81 were being made!

Most of the top Neve replicas like Chandler etc all use the same components sourced from the same manufacturers!

I would love some genuine Neve just so I could say I had it, but that the point its my ego that would need it not my audio results!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinmusic View Post
There are similarities for sure but IMHO they don't sound the same.

I've just come to the end of quite a long personal preamp shootout (a few months actually - the odd day here and there) covering a lot of names from Germanium to Forssell and IMO the differences between a real Neve and the copies/neve-inspired designs are not that subtle. Now whether you prefer one or the other is up to you but the pres, at least the ones I heard, all have their own characteristic sound. I'm sure a lot comes down to type of music you make and the mics you already own (in my case Gefell, Neumann + Peluso).

I bought a 1073dpa about halfway through so I guess that was my reference. I haven't heard the BAE model but the Aurora, for example, has quite a different high end characteristic. Slightly brighter and a bit more 'squishy' overall when driven than the 1073dpa. Very musical though, clearly a great pre but just not the same as a 1073 if that's what you like.

The only other make I'm going with along with the 1073dpa is the Great River to cover cleaner sounds + the DI is excellent. To my ears, the GR was the least 1073 sounding of all the Neve inspired designs but it's just an excellent, open-sounding pre in it's own right. Love it.

Why do I like the 1073dpa so much? It just gives me the sound I've been looking for. Maybe the sound in your head is different.


I've talked to both Geoff Tanner of Aurora audio and Dan Kenedy of Great River. Neither the GR MP2NV or the Aurora GTQ2 are meant to me Neve clones. Dan has said many times that the NV used the 1073 drawings as a base but wanted to change the low mids and not just make something that sound like 1073. When I talked to Geoff Tanner he called the GTQ2 more of an evolved 1073, what the 1073 would be with modern componants, yet still with a nod to the classic sound. The top end extention was one thing he mentioned doing on purpose.

I thinks these are important things to mention because people are talking about clones and these two peices are not clones. They do both kick a$$ though.
Old 20th August 2007
  #19
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lpkyer's Avatar
 

Though they know what a Neumann is so get a tlm49
Old 20th August 2007
  #20
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Frankovitchy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
Most clients don't know what a Neve or a Telefunken is.
i agree and why should they?

Do i care if my carpenter uses "middle of the road" kind of tools to build my studio console?? the answer is no, not as long as i'm pleased with the result...
I'm pretty sure i've never asked my dentist "soo is that the vintage Q574 drill your using there champ?" but i do exspect him to have the right KIND of tools at hand....

(hope my poor english makes sense...i've had way to much coffee and it's pretty late here in denmark)
Old 20th August 2007
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankovitchy View Post
Do i care if my carpenter uses "middle of the road" kind of tools to build my studio console?? the answer is no, not as long as i'm pleased with the result...
This is a very good analogy! The most important is the result!
Unless may be if you target the Hip Hop market , those guys want the Bling! Bling! (All due respect!)
Old 20th August 2007
  #22
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The main difference between the clones and the original is not the circuit design as that can be so easily copied.

The very small difference in sound between the real thing and clones is to do with the Carnhill Transformer's that Neve use, no other company can get hold of these transformers from Carnhill, they can only get a simililar transformer made by the same company but its slightly different.

There is one guy i know who is based in the UK, who takes appart old neve consoles which are full of these transformers, and remakes the 1073's using original parts and original Neve cabling. Prices for these are extemely reasonable and according to a client of mine, who i consider as the no.1 mix engineer in the uk, they sound identical.

Other than that, to get the exact same sound, you need to buy a Neve

Old 20th August 2007
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankovitchy View Post
i agree and why should they?

Do i care if my carpenter uses "middle of the road" kind of tools to build my studio console?? the answer is no, not as long as i'm pleased with the result...
I'm pretty sure i've never asked my dentist "soo is that the vintage Q574 drill your using there champ?" but i do exspect him to have the right KIND of tools at hand....

(hope my poor english makes sense...i've had way to much coffee and it's pretty late here in denmark)
Well now !! I felt I had to jump in on this post having read this reply so here's my two cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankovitchy View Post
Do i care if my carpenter uses "middle of the road" kind of tools to build my studio console?? the answer is no, not as long as i'm pleased with the result...
To discuss your comparison, I presume we can take the tools as your outboard and the wood as your recording/artist.
Sure you can cut, chissel and build a nice studio console using "middle of the road" tools, BUT.....the difference is going to be in the end result. Cheap tools with blunt edges will not construct and carve wood in the same way. Having said this, if the wood you use is cheap MDF and not good vintage oak, you may be dfegad in the wind no matter what you do !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankovitchy View Post
I'm pretty sure i've never asked my dentist "soo is that the vintage Q574 drill your using there champ?" but i do expect him to have the right KIND of tools at hand....
The difference here is that old denistry techniques were in fact VERY BAD for our health. I'm all for new technology in denistry, but lets remember, my dentist has the water cooled Supedrillomatic 6000 for a very good reason, it works ten times better than the vintage Q574 model and will do a heck of a better job at fighting my cavities than the Q574 ever could !

The same can not be said for (All) modern day recording equipment !

I remember as a kid, seeing some vintage recording gear and thinking, gee, that look olds.

I would have prefered an ALESIS 3630 over a 2254 back then any day (I was a kid remember and had no idea of the meaning of vintage gear and was very very young).

The Alesis 3630 is not to be overlooked btw Has a ....eh......certain...chaaaarm

The point I'm making is that this is somewhat of a catch 22 situation. As gear has progressed, we have almost come full circle. The full on digital peak we experienced in the 90s has come and gone. Manufacturers build gear these days that performs somewhat in the same way as our vintage favourites do, but at the same time, some clients like flashing lights.

This is really besides the point as anyone who buys a bit of gear because of how it looks, really should be in video, not audio.

You should buy gear for YOU, not for your clients. If you feel a V72 kicks ass over a 1272, do your thing and fly that Telefunken flag.

The expected Digital revolution of the 90s has failed. The foundation of modern recordings is STILL built on analog so heres my advice.

If you fancy a bit of Neve, sure try the clones or remakes, but try the originals as well. If you like the clones over the original, buy the clone and save yourself the money.

The question you may want to ask yourself is this, If you had the money, would you buy the Mona Lisa, or a re-print?

My opinion on vintage Neve, re-issues and clones is this:

A vintage 10XX will need re-capping, could be noisy and probably will need the pots cleaned or replaced.

A re-issue will one day itself..... be vintage heh

If, and I have no doubt that this will be the case, someday, a twenty times platinum album of the future, is recorded using Geoffs GTQ, it too will become as widely collectible and highly regarded as much as the Neve gear we so often discuss.

Is there any need to pay for genuine Neve ? That depends on whether your making an investment, taking a gamble or just following the crowd.

Nothing can take away from the fact that the Neve 10XX has a very very impressive track record !! Get it...."track" "Record"

Old 20th August 2007
  #24
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Money is not the issue (within reason, I ain't buying no API legacy any time soon!) if there is a marked difference between say a LTD-1 & a 1073 I'd sooner wait and save longer. But if I recorded a basic vocal & acoustic guitar track through a 1073, LTD-1 and a BAE how many of us would pick out the REAL 1073 every time in a blind test?

If I'm being totally honest I'll probably end up saving ages for the bloody Neve because I know what I'm like and I'll want the REAL thing. But surely its not necessary. I know I'm contradicting myself to a certain extent but that's kind of the point, there are many products that would be indistinguishable in a blind test at half the price, yet we want Neve.
Old 20th August 2007
  #25
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
Is there really any need to pay for genuine Neve?
The question should be "Is there really any need for a Neve"????

If most people listed their 10 top favorite records or their top ten favorite sounding records, 1 out of ten of those disks were probably tracked with a neve.

To me I would rather have a Studer a820 w/ a midlevel console than a neve desk with a crappy apogee converter and profools.

Preamps are important but a neve real or clone is not the only way to a great sounding record. In fact some of my least favorite records sonically were tracked with Neve's. Kansas is my favorite band but I hate the sound of their records. Most done with neve's.

If I see one more neve post on this site I'm gonna puke
Old 20th August 2007
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post

If I see one more neve post on this site I'm gonna puke
LOL Sorry dude heh
Old 20th August 2007
  #27
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neilio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post
The main difference between the clones and the original is not the circuit design as that can be so easily copied.

The very small difference in sound between the real thing and clones is to do with the Carnhill Transformer's that Neve use, no other company can get hold of these transformers from Carnhill, they can only get a simililar transformer made by the same company but its slightly different.

There is one guy i know who is based in the UK, who takes appart old neve consoles which are full of these transformers, and remakes the 1073's using original parts and original Neve cabling. Prices for these are extemely reasonable and according to a client of mine, who i consider as the no.1 mix engineer in the uk, they sound identical.

Other than that, to get the exact same sound, you need to buy a Neve


beat me to it^^^. the replica/clone circuits are often better, with lower noise and higher quality resistors or caps, and more modern circuits.

---BUT---

the iron that was in the original neves were used with materials that consisted of surplus military metals, that just arent available anymore,or at the very least exist in the way the good tubes from yesteryear are, the cost to reproduce these things would make like a preamp cost 10 grand.

so that is the REAL difference between them, that said the clones are very very good
Old 20th August 2007
  #28
11364
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Horses for courses !

Just like a pair of jeans, try before you buy. Let YOUR OWN ears decide what works for you, and what don't.

No amount of posts on this subject can answer this question.

Its almost as big a conundrum as the meaning of life round ere
Old 20th August 2007
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neveboy View Post
Just like a pair of jeans, try before you buy. Let YOUR OWN ears decide what works for you, and what don't.
I don't understand? You want my ears to decide what jeans I should buy
Old 20th August 2007
  #30
11364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
I don't understand? You want my ears to decide what jeans I should buy
No, I want your jeans to decide what ears you buy

My point is try before you buy.

You wouldn't buy a pair of jeans without trying them on first would you? Maybe you would, but you don't really know what you are getting, or more importantly, how they fit.

Just because Neve 10XX have a lot of discussion around here, doesn't mean its going to float your boat.

Find a dealer that will let you test gear. Most decent dealers will and it doesn't matter where you are in the world. I have boxes shipped to me here in Ireland, I get a few days to try and if I like, I buy.
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