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Where is the art in using generic drum samples????!!!! Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 18th August 2007
  #31
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oceantracks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeStoker View Post
My competiors in my area are all using generic drum samples in their mixes. Of course the groups they work with are saying "wow this guy gets a great drum sound" Are you [email protected]@ing kidding me! Yes I like to use samples along side (parallel) to the real drums but I make my own from the drummers drumkit. I spend the time to mic the kit great and EQ and move mics and.... etc. to get a good sound. I have a great live sounding drum room my cymbals sound nice and airy a great natural ambience on each drum. I listen to their mixes and the only thing that sounds great is the kick snare and toms the cymbals sound week vocal are small can I go on? And the people around here think it is just great. Where in the hell is our art that we love going?
You don't get bigger or better than film composer Jerry Goldsmith. He once said "People are always hung up about using a stock patch on synth. Well, an oboe is a stock patch, so is a French Horn. It's what you do with it."

TH
Old 18th August 2007
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

These are all great points and analogies thanks guys. I guess I don't wanna take the easy way out with using someones premade samples. but on a synth I will use premade souds so... color my kettle black I guess
Old 18th August 2007
  #33
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post

God forbid you mix a snare these days with a lot of thud or ping.

Or how about a dead fish kick? Remember those?


EyE!!!

I'm producing a record now where we've got thud & ping...

Everyone's LOVING it.

So far no samples have been harmed in the process. We might end up creating samples on one tune where we have a bit of a leakage issue during the B3 solo but that's it.

The band tracked everything in one room...gobo'd off.

No cans. No problem!

We also tracked a live show @ an upstate NY Arts center in the spring, haven't mixed it beyond roughs yet but that's got a big ringy snare... again, people dig it!

I'm not into the idea of 'replacing' drums with samples, I'd rather augment what's there if I need to. Most of the time I won't even use drumagog... I was doing that stuff before it even existed!!!

Anyone else put a horrortone on top of a snare & remic that during mix?! Run something out to a cranked up silvertone amp or whuddever...

Keep the 'fakeness' organic.
Old 18th August 2007
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

I probably shouldn't touch this thread but what the hell...

Drum samples might make drums sound better but they are not going to turn a ****ty mix into a great mix automatically. I've heard mixes with our samples from guys like Mike Shipley and Jeff Juliano and I've heard the same samples being used on mixes from guys like.. well.. me for instance. Guess whose came out better?

Drum samples are a tool and quite a useful one, but they're not going to turn anyone into a superstar mixer. That still takes SKILL.

Joel
Old 18th August 2007
  #35
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Nice thread.

I enjoy drums in all contexts. With modern Rock / Metal the drums are competing with a wall of in ya' face guitars - everything has to be real or as 'Not So New says' - "Hyper Real". These pre-made samples serve that genre well, they add aggression, punch and force to the music.

I guess today's busy mix engineers have enough to worry about and are on too a tight schedule to be killing themselves working on the drums. And I presume it is usually only kik and snare that get the replacement treatment.

I do really enjoy listening to natural drums sounds though - they sound refreshing and acoustic and just er....natural.

But that said, those same 'open' 'airy' natural acoustic drums placed in the centre of a Linkin Park mix would sound helpless and pathetic.
Old 18th August 2007
  #36
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big country's Avatar
 

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">learn how to Mic
and play
do you prefer fake tits or real tits
I like them real
I think its not good to see people
use bogus samples
and loops
it's bad for music in my humble opinion

I like real people and real music
what about you?

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Old 18th August 2007
  #37
Gear Addict
 

And the Phil Collins gated reverb was so natural to start with?

/end sarcasm

My point is just that it's about a) the art and b) getting the job done. Sometimes both a and b mean you use samples. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes making things unnatural *is* art.


edit: I know the Phil Collins drums were recorded on their own, and weren't samples, bu they were processed so much that I would argue that they were unnatural. And they still kick ass.

Last edited by Mosby; 18th August 2007 at 09:44 PM.. Reason: clearing it up
Old 18th August 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
do you prefer fake tits or real tits
Oddly enough, I like fake tits way more than fake drums.
Old 18th August 2007
  #39
Gear Nut
 

Same could be said you using equipment you didn`t make, where`s the creativity in that, you just used a bunch of equipment all made by other people.....
Old 18th August 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
lowfreq33's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
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do you prefer fake tits or real tits






</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">


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I prefer nice real ones to nice fake ones, but I'd rather see nice fake ones than ugly real ones.
Old 18th August 2007
  #41
Lives for gear
 
alexstringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
Well in the 60's and 70's people made "dance" music with real human performances,.....
Sorry man, i live in the future, not in the past!
Old 18th August 2007
  #42
Lives for gear
 
big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chops909 View Post
Same could be said you using equipment you didn`t make, where`s the creativity in that, you just used a bunch of equipment all made by other people.....
still learning I will get thier
almost all of my instuments including my house where built by me
Old 18th August 2007
  #43
Lives for gear
 
big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
I prefer nice real ones to nice fake ones, but I'd rather see nice fake ones than ugly real ones.
most important whats behind the tits
Old 19th August 2007
  #44
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FossilTooth's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by big country View Post
most important whats behind the tits
The ribcage IS an important part of human bone structure.
Old 19th August 2007
  #45
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big country's Avatar
 

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ya know what Im sayin
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Old 19th August 2007
  #46
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jude's Avatar
 

in my very humble oppinion, some here should climb off their high horse.

as engineers we work for clients, it is the client who pays us, remember that!

if they want a rock track with all the drums replaced with samples who are you to complain?! you charge them for the extra time it takes to find, load and mix the samples and at the end of the day you get more money for that next preamp, compressor etc.

i see it as a win/win situation. your clients go away happy and you are that bit closer to that next "must have" bit of gear
Old 19th August 2007
  #47
Lives for gear
 

eh...as much as i hate to say it, drum programming can be an "art"

i'm not a drummer, and don't have time to compose songs with one, so i've started programming drums in the last few months

i played a song on which i programmed drums for an engineer/producer/drummer friend of mine a while back, and he looked at me and said "damn dude, that's some ridiculous programming - i would've never thought to program drums like that"

i know it's not that big of a deal, but it felt good to hear coming from the person who said it...mostly because a fellow musician felt as though i had done something unique and innovative with something as simple as drawing in drum hits on a grid
Old 19th August 2007
  #48
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
I don't know....would it matter if Van Gogh used Paint Shop Pro?
probably not, because nobody in the US bothers to go to museums to see the painting...what does it matter that all the detail and texture exists, if everyone is looking at a 2D print?

this goes hand-in-hand with the argument of making high quality recordings, that sound great on professional playback systems...only to be listened to by the public on their cell phones, ipods, and crappy car stereos.<!-- / message -->
Old 19th August 2007
  #49
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Andrew Kinsey's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeStoker View Post
These are all great points and analogies thanks guys. I guess I don't wanna take the easy way out with using someones premade samples. but on a synth I will use premade souds so... color my kettle black I guess
Personally i think for instrumentation and synth sounds, its even more important to be original. Also whenever i record synth's they allways sounds much better than any samples or plug-ins.

In certain dance categories people tend to use the same samples all the time for drum and synth sounds etc.. I personally dont like this approach as it makes everything sound too similar and boring. Its much more fun to make music from original sounds.

Its better to pioneer the sound than to copy someone else's.

Old 19th August 2007
  #50
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer View Post
In America, commerce IS an art.
Anyway, you statement is rude! That would mean that anybody making dance music is not an artist!
hey I carve my 909 with all my haert .... my 909 is a work of art.
Old 19th August 2007
  #51
..

i don't get the title of this thread - is this a head trip trick word play quiz, or something?

because i can't for the life of me find the t in those first letters anywhere in the last words.....

.
Old 19th August 2007
  #52
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post

Its better to pioneer the sound than to copy someone else's.


Indeed.

But it's far easier to be a lemming.
Old 19th August 2007
  #53
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosby View Post
I know the Phil Collins drums were recorded on their own, and weren't samples, bu they were processed so much that I would argue that they were unnatural. And they still kick ass.
For the sake of a song, I'd rather use drums samples than those Phil Collins "real" drums...
Old 19th August 2007
  #54
Lives for gear
 
dlmorley's Avatar
I remember people like Peter Gabriel replacing drum sounds with AMS gear in the 80's , but at least he had the decency to make his own replacement sounds AND they were interesting.

On one hand we discuss which preamp and mic for snare endlessly, then on the other hand it will be a sample anyway in the final mix

Absurd in my book, but it's a free world
Old 19th August 2007
  #55
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Like it or not these samples have become "the sound" out there for drums in pop & rock music. Friends will bring me music to listen to and the first thing I'll tell them is "all of the drums are fake" because I can hear it. They can't, they don't get it. To me it sounds like a drum machine! Done well though, which is typically blending, it can sound very real and very in your face.

How many of you drive Model A's to work?

Things have gotten a lot better since Alice in Chains "Facelift" album which is soooooooo fake. I still like it though because the songs are well written, played and arranged.

War
Old 19th August 2007
  #56
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey View Post

Its better to pioneer the sound than to copy someone else's.
That's the thing. Just seems weird to be using a sound that is identical down to the last 1 and 0. It's not really about real or fake or natural or hyper real.

Every oboe is a different one and every oboe player is a different player, and every note they play is...different. Even if someone cops a general style or sound, it will still be different. That's such a huge part of what gives people their individuality.

Even when a sweet young lady buys herself a pair of massive jumblies, they're still hers, her own balloons filled with her own jello pudding inside her own original skin and whatnot. They're not an exact clone down to the last DNA strand of someone else's stapled on.
Old 20th August 2007
  #57
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer View Post
Sorry man, i live in the future, not in the past!
Good for you bro, me, I'll just stick to the present, I don't trust people who live in the future ....
Old 21st August 2007
  #58
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big country's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by warhead View Post
Like it or not these samples have become "the sound" out there for drums in pop & rock music. Friends will bring me music to listen to and the first thing I'll tell them is "all of the drums are fake" because I can hear it. They can't, they don't get it. To me it sounds like a drum machine! Done well though, which is typically blending, it can sound very real and very in your face.

How many of you drive Model A's to work?

Things have gotten a lot better since Alice in Chains "Facelift" album which is soooooooo fake. I still like it though because the songs are well written, played and arranged.

War
I think samples are a cry for new drums

when your young-in's starts Cryin about something do you ever try and figure out why he is crying
yelling doest help you our the kid...
there is always a reason its not because they want something
it because they need something

the music industry has been needing something different for to long time
fake drums and many more things are what I believe to be the industries cry for help

marching band equipment is way cool
best made by some who plays
think kosher
(long) humm
dont even have to drink a six pack of bottled pasbt a day to figure that one out

BTW

this spell check sucks ass
Old 21st August 2007
  #59
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexstringer View Post
It's not only annoying, i feel sorry for them!
Some people are still living in their 60's man! It's so lame!
Wake up! Almost 50 years have past since The Beatles!
You know, the first step in creating something incredible is to set yourself in the place and the frame of mind of people who already did something incredible. Once you master that you can ADD yourself and you will get something even more amazing.

Considering that no one has ever done anything since the fab four that has even been 50% as amazing as what the beatles did, I can only consider your comment as comming from a 13 year old, or someone with incredible bad grip or taste.

Best of luck,
Jim.
Old 21st August 2007
  #60
Gear Head
 

I must admit i don't see the point in using samples, by samples i mean riffs/loops etc that have been created by someone other than yourself.

For me i consider it cheating, i like to create EVERYTHING afresh, even if i make those into loops etc to use i always create my own.
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