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The New API 1608 Console Consoles
Old 27th August 2007
  #181
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I Think the console looks great .we already know it will sound amazing and will have some great features including the available automation and expansiblity to 32 channels. as far as the price being a lot lower than an original 1604. I don't know about that ,neve/ams charges $4400 for there reissue 1081 micpre not really much less than an original .besides thatl i'd take this console over a 1604 anyday of the week. not only for the features ,although that is huge ,but also because i love gear that works and i also love a 5 year guarantee .it seems no matter what we ask for when it becomes a reality and were faced with the price we have to badmouth the company's that are going out on a limb the design and manufacture the gear we ask for . I wanted this console 2 years ago and i built something similiar with api and boutique audio's help trust me it was not cheaper than $50,000 .it's very cool but this is better in many ways so i'm thrilled . if you want cheap don't look at api .they make there stuff to sound good .this thing is built like a tank and will be worth every penny .
Hey Jack,

Good to see you here. I'm not bad mouthing the company at all. Do you really think I am? Or that I don't know that API makes a quality product? Come on Jack, you know me. In fact I've said several times I think it's great they are bring a product like this back to market and I will be talking to them at AES about it. I just wish it was more in line with what a console like this should go for, that's all. Others feel it's in line, oh well.

BTW two years ago I would have given you a killer deal on that BCM10 of mine, you should have stayed in touch.

best,
Larry
Old 27th August 2007
  #182
Here for the gear
 

api 1608

Hey larry
i do know you and i know your a pro and a cool guy .i also can't help thinking about a bike shop in portland oregon i ran into in the late 90's . in this shop was a very nice selection of nos triumph's . these bikes were brand new and had been sitting in the show room for 20 years . now as we all know in 1976 a triumph motorcycle was about 2500.00 .well this same dry rotted been sitting for two decades unrideable bike was going for 13,000-14,000 dollars . when i complained the owner who was much older and considerably wiser than I , said don't blame the bikes it's money . money no good .i'd rather have these bikes which wil be worth more next year than your money i was like yeah i get it . if you think about the fact that an api eq is 1000.00 buck and a mic pre is 750.00 .and a pg fader is 100.00 and a deceent vu meters is nearly the same why would you think this console would come in much cheaper than it is also look at the ssl console . let's be honest a nice car is 40,000 bucks it is not 1976 everthing is more expensive except for the recording budgets .but we can't blame that on the company's that are still willing to make quality gear for us to use . i think that might fall on the shoulder's of all the lawyer's running the music biz that did not see the writing on the wall with downloads. peace out jack
Old 27th August 2007
  #183
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Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Yes there are *some* vintage pieces that are demanding outragous prices, leading manufacturers to reissue them and try to take advantage of that. Are there any mixing boards where that is the case?
i think the 1608 could start a trend. if 80XX, or BCM10 consoles were reissued with some modern appointments they'd be going for a pretty penny, and people would buy them, just like people will buy this console. but because of the price, these things obviously won't sell massively, just like Icons, Dualitys, or 33609s don't.

the fact that music budgets are shrinking doesn't help large recording complexes, but the home recording market is exploding, there's no denying that. if this is good or bad i don't know, but it's a fact.

what we as GS would like to see for a certain price, and what the market can support may be two different things altogether. if they sell API consoles to lawyers, but they actually do get sold, API did their homework, and lawyers ended up supporting the music industry; same with gibson and fender custom shop gtrs for example. i see nothing wrong with that.

fwiw i don't think API could've picked a better time to do something like this.
Old 27th August 2007
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
let's be honest a nice car is 40,000 bucks it is not 1976 everthing is more expensive except for the recording budgets...

i think, once you adjust for inflation, recording gear is way cheaper today than it was in 1976. it's also more plentiful and the options are broader.

what DID a 1604 go for (in current dollars) when it came out?


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 27th August 2007
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
i think, once you adjust for inflation, recording gear is way cheaper today than it was in 1976. it's also more plentiful and the options are broader.

what DID a 1604 go for (in current dollars) when it came out?


gregoire
del
ubk
.
My Electrodyne ACC1204 (16x4) went for 24k back in 1969.

My Flickinger 281 (8x2) went for 5K back in 1970.

I know my Neve BCM10 (10x2) w/eight 1073 modules cost 8K back in 1973.

My Trident 80B (32x24) went for 85K back in 1985.

My Trident 24 (24x16) went for 22K back in 1987.

I know what you are saying as well Jack. I'd like to think cost to manufacture is cheaper then it is. Probably because I've been in the game long enough to know how to buy the same quality for a lot less or at least be patient enough to wait and find "the deal".

In 1992 I got a friend a Neve 8068 (32x8) for 75K. A few months back I helped a friend buy a vintage Alice mixer (24x8) for 650.00. A month ago I just missed another Electrodyne board (another friend beat me to it) for 700.00. Last September I bought an Electrodyne 8x2 rack console for 325.00!!!

Oh well, IIWII.

I'll see all you guys at the API booth in October.
Old 27th August 2007
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
let's be honest a nice car is 40,000 bucks it is not 1976 everthing is more expensive

Nice car and 40 grands are not compatible terms here.
100 k nearer to the truth.
Money is losing so much power that 100 k paid today for new analogue console of high calibre is actually bargain (AWS would be OK, but I didn't like that sound at price).
Only issue is sound. I have to hear it by myself, if API didn't spoil something with sound and it's new than around 100k for 32 ch is OK.
Old 27th August 2007
  #187
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Nice car and 40 grands are not compatible terms here.
100 k nearer to the truth.
Money is losing so much power that 100 k paid today for new analogue console of high calibre is actually bargain
Yes money is losing power but is not so easy to get it anyway!!,,I mean 100K you do not make it in a heartbeat!..at least if all what you is music!
Well if you are Max Martin o any top top guy maybe is faster to make 100K!

...but I think you can get great options with $100k ....one way to see it is getting an used SSL....

But I would prefer to get the API for $50k!!!
Old 27th August 2007
  #188
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Good analog consoles have always been expensive.

This is a very reasonable price for genuine API quality!

Very reasonable!
Old 27th August 2007
  #189
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As in all things, only the market (consumers) will decide if this is product is viable at this price. This isn't exactly a "make or break" offering from API, so I'm sure we'll have the opportunity to enjoy new hardware from them for many years to come.

Cheers to API and their bold moves in making a really f'in awesome looking console - regardless of price.
Old 27th August 2007
  #190
Gear Maniac
 

sales pitch

"Good analog consoles have always been expensive.
This is a very reasonable price for genuine API quality!
Very reasonable!"


Said like a true salesman How about charging $60,000 for the mixer which would pay API's hefty so called engineering salaries and added audio sales profit?



Eventually some smart company/engineer will come up with a cost effected design that will sweep the market but it’s not going to be API, Neve, Rupert with the old greedy mind set.......maybe Avalon will produce something……… I know he was entertaining two designs a couple years ago.
(And I’m talking in the range of $18,000- $30,000)
Old 27th August 2007
  #191
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i think this whole subject of inflation is very interesting.. I have turned up a few web sites that will allow you to calculate inflation...

US: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

UK: http://img.thisismoney.co.uk/calcula...ceInflate.html

its quite interesting to process some figures like the ones that silvertone gave...

"my Neve BCM10 (10x2) w/eight 1073 modules cost 8K back in 1973"

8k in todays terms (well 2006 not 07) is $37242. thats quite interesting... it kind of dispells the myth (in my head at least) that gear was a lot cheaper back then. i mean that is similar, if not more expensive than how much it would cost now.

Does anyone have an original price for an API 1604?? that would be an interesting calculation.

In reverse i did a rough calculation. (not knowing the first year the 1604 was introduced)
$50000 in 2006 is $9413.34 in 1970.

Sorry, i realise these figures really have no bearing on realitly are there are so many factors that determine weather something is good value or not. its just quite interesting...

Is there anyone around who could recall how much the average day rate in a comercial studio was in 1970/ 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 00?


Is this interesting to anyone else or have i just gone on a mad meaningless rant???


I'm tired
Old 28th August 2007
  #192
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Originally Posted by 8068 View Post
maybe Avalon will produce something……… I know he was entertaining two designs a couple years ago. (And I’m talking in the range of $18,000- $30,000)
these have been around for years: Martinsound | ACX Overview

something like this with instant reset would be grooooooovey.

but for a front end or summing box with vibe i think the API is a very nice option. whether it's too expensive or priced to move we'll find out soon enough, but meantime, if someone at API is reading, detented pot option for recall!
Old 28th August 2007
  #193
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue May View Post
i think this whole subject of inflation is very interesting.. I have turned up a few web sites that will allow you to calculate inflation...

US: The Inflation Calculator

cool site.

so my sound workshop 1280 went for $5000 in 1982, that's $11,000 today. 11 grand for a 12x8x2, 1 cue send, 1 echo send, zero routing. eat your heart out toft!

my studer went for $20000 in 1980, that's $53000 today. 53 grand for a two track reel to reel. i can see the comments about the studer if it were released today... 53 LARGE FOR TWO CHANNELS OF TAPE?! I'M PERSONALLY OFFENDED BY THE VERY NOTION! CHARLATANS, EVERY ONE OF THEM!

portico my ass.

this sh¡t costs, always has. $50k for a 16 channel desk that rocks balls API style is chump change.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 28th August 2007
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
cool site.

so my sound workshop 1280 went for $5000 in 1982, that's $11,000 today. 11 grand for a 12x8x2, 1 cue send, 1 echo send, zero routing. eat your heart out toft!

my studer went for $20000 in 1980, that's $53000 today. 53 grand for a two track reel to reel. i can see the comments about the studer if it were released today... 53 LARGE FOR TWO CHANNELS OF TAPE?! I'M PERSONALLY OFFENDED BY THE VERY NOTION! CHARLATANS, EVERY ONE OF THEM!

portico my ass.

this sh¡t costs, always has. $50k for a 16 channel desk that rocks balls API style is chump change.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
This is exactly my point.. We've all become so used to cheap new product (and i'm not knoking it.. there is certainly a place for it... I'm looking into buhying a toft myself right now) however.. The good thing about this API is that its not trying to compete.. its not watering its self down nor shoud it. They are offering a top class small footprint console.. and personally i would take one of these any day over the overpriced control surfaces. This is a great solution in my eyes and if money would allow right now i would be putting my name on the pre order list.

Maybe I should start another thread where we could do some comparissong of costs. it would be interesting to see how much recording budgets / equipment really has gone down in inflation terms. or weather it has at all or if we're all just imaginig it?!?

Blue May
Old 28th August 2007
  #195
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GYang's Avatar
Quote:
Anyway, if the 1608 sounds as good as we hope it does, then API should be applauded for coming out with a true high-end piece that doesn't cut corners on quality.
Sonic excellence is valid requirement when 3 k per channel is asked price, but in case of real excellence asked price is valid, too.

TO API SALES

Any idea where one might try console in Europe in near future?
I don't believe API distributor here will be ever able to bring one to showroom

IMO not all people have first hand exprience with newer high-end consoles and that fact delays decision for such purchases.
Old 28th August 2007
  #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8068 View Post
"Good analog consoles have always been expensive.
This is a very reasonable price for genuine API quality!
Very reasonable!"


Said like a true salesman How about charging $60,000 for the mixer which would pay API's hefty so called engineering salaries and added audio sales profit?

(And I’m talking in the range of $18,000- $30,000)
Can I ask you something 8068? Why do you equate something like this with greed? What do you have against hard-working people and companies providing the market with a good service or product, and getting paid for that? What do you have against profit? Do you work for free? Do you try to make a living with your studio, or do you give it away? Do you have a trust fund? Or are you a communist/socialist? If you are, how did that communism thing work out in the global market?

I can tell you, whether I sell stuff or not, as an engineer and an life-long API user, I am very very excited about this. Is that ok with you, or does that make me some kind of grubby/greedy profiteer?

In no way is this overpriced. It's worth every penny. You can short-load it an pay less, if you choose.

Good quality is always going to cost. Remember what your mother said? "You get what you pay for".

An API Legacy Plus or Vision is hundreds of thousands.

The original 1970's API 1604 was tens of thousands in 1970's money.

And how much was an 8068? That's your name --you should know, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 8068 was about 150,000 UK pounds. In 1978, the pound equalled almost 4 US$. But lets say the pound was $3. That desk was pushing half-a-million bucks. In 1978 you could still buy a decent car for a grand, the Rolling Stones Tour ticket was $10, and if you made $30,000 a year you were doing really well. My Dad bought a beach house in Florida that year for $35,000.

I don't know how much that would equal in today's money but I'll bet it's more than a million. Which makes the little $50K API look darn reasonable. What do you expect a hand-built discrete console to cost? (And were Rupert Neve and Co working for the good of their hearts, or were they profiting from their venture?).

Judging by the calls we're getting, people are very excited and will be happy to drop fifty on the 1608.

I got it! You're just an API hater!

PS: I can tell you, I don't know any Pro Audio Dealer OR Manufacturer that's getting rich, by any means. If we wanted to make lots of money, we'd be doing almost anything else for a career but this. I'd venture that most people making and selling studio gear do it because they love recording, and they love good sound.
Old 28th August 2007
  #197
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^^^well put.
Old 28th August 2007
  #198
Dan
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It's interesting to factor inflation, but since studio rates haven't moved in 30 years, where does it leave us?

Having a hard time affording a $50k console, so it better answer all our needs. In my reality, a 32 channel console with 16 busses, and 6 auxes/returns is about where I land. I might be able to deal with 8 busses, but $100k just isn't happening in the near future.

Since studio rates haven't moved we could ask what's $50k in 1980 dollars today?

$133,881

What cost that much in 1980? A full size console!


Seriously, the studio I work at charged more in 1973 than we currently do. I wanna say the MCI installed in '83 was around $50k, a price which is still steep, but conceivable.

To say it's cheap for api quality is irrelevant, it wouldn't replace the functionality of our current console, and I just don't think an api sidecar is going to impove the sound that much, or drive that much business.

A Wunderbar though...
Old 28th August 2007
  #199
bee
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It's hard to believe that in the early 90's a 24 channel legacy starting price was at $90k.
Old 28th August 2007
  #200
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Yes the price is a tad steep. But if what else can you buy new AS GOOD for the same price or less?
Wunderbar, tonelux etc all much more expensive
Old 29th August 2007
  #201
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pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHunter View Post
Good quality is always going to cost. Remember what your mother said? "You get what you pay for".

PS: I can tell you, I don't know any Pro Audio Dealer OR Manufacturer that's getting rich, by any means. If we wanted to make lots of money, we'd be doing almost anything else for a career but this. I'd venture that most people making and selling studio gear do it because they love recording, and they love good sound.
agree!
Old 29th August 2007
  #202
TML
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I'd consider getting one and ditching all my other pre's..... in this market I can't see the need to have a dozen different pre/eq's when you only record sterile and mess it up with plugs later.... plus the speed of having a board again would be cool... ditch the Fulcrom summing....the api/neve/daking/tubetech/avalon... who cares......it's all in front of yah... bands don't play at the same time anymore so 16 channels is fine......let's see
2x560
4x312
2x1073
2x52270
737
MP1a
a2d

well see........need to come up with another 30 g's..........
tim
Old 29th August 2007
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TML View Post
I'd consider getting one and ditching all my other pre's..... in this market I can't see the need to have a dozen different pre/eq's when you only record sterile and mess it up with plugs later.... plus the speed of having a board again would be cool... ditch the Fulcrom summing....the api/neve/daking/tubetech/avalon... who cares......it's all in front of yah... bands don't play at the same time anymore so 16 channels is fine......let's see
2x560
4x312
2x1073
2x52270
737
MP1a
a2d

well see........need to come up with another 30 g's..........
tim
actually another $37 g's. don't sell the 1073s. heh
Old 29th August 2007
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raal View Post
actually another $37 g's. don't sell the 1073s. heh
Raal, you beat me to it. Was gonna post the same reply after I answered the phone!
Old 29th August 2007
  #205
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First off...very excited about this new console. It looks fantastic! Very close to what I've been waiting for. There are, however, a couple of things that puzzle me:

1. Everywhere is stating it comes with 12 550A's, yet in all the photos thus far, it has four band eqs. Is this not in fact the 550B? Would just like clarification on that.

2. Would I be alone in REALLY, REALLY wanting faders for the eight busses? Hmmmm. That one has really got me kicking the dirt! Maybe they have something up their sleeve? There are seven blanks left. Maybe they can make a 6 wide module with eight faders in it??? I don't know...just hope they do something. The 1604 certainly had (4) buss faders.

Last thing is...would just love API to get some info up on their site. Lose the Waves plug's screen...lets get REAL! There was a chap here from API last week sometime that said they would have info up in a day or so. I wish, for the sake of a sound night's sleep, that that would happen soon.

Would love to know some details about the Future Vision Automation. I know it's a way off, but is any sort of recall available, a la Neve and SSL's recent offerings?

Great work API.thumbsup

Ken
Old 29th August 2007
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realtugs View Post
...2. Would I be alone in REALLY, REALLY wanting faders for the eight busses? Hmmmm. That one has really got me kicking the dirt! Maybe they have something up their sleeve? There are seven blanks left. Maybe they can make a 6 wide module with eight faders in it??? I don't know...just hope they do something. The 1604 certainly had (4) buss faders.
On the old API desks, the buss & group faders are .75" wide so, they fit 2 with in an "empty" 1.5" slot. The old 812 monitor returns are the same way. 32 channels fit in 24".

Also, the OLD routing method was to sum the busses to and ACA summing amp. Balanced out from the ACA to a buss fader. Buss fader out to a 325 card for make up gain or "booster amp" they called it. To keep the signal "old school", a 325 type booster amp should be used in the new desk. I doubt 325's are in the desk and not in the signal chain. I'm sure there are other methods now-a-days, but they will deffinetly not sound like a "vintage desk".

Hey, food for thought designers...discrete line input cards that fit in a .75" wide slot with full throw faders. That's 22 channels in an 11 space BAE style rack...6 or 9 spaces tall...humm...
Old 29th August 2007
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vin-gear View Post
On the old API desks, the buss & group faders are .75" wide so, they fit 2 with in an "empty" 1.5" slot. The old 812 monitor returns are the same way. 32 channels fit in 24".

Also, the OLD routing method was to sum the busses to and ACA summing amp. Balanced out from the ACA to a buss fader. Buss fader out to a 325 card for make up gain or "booster amp" they called it. To keep the signal "old school", a 325 type booster amp should be used in the new desk. I doubt 325's are in the desk and not in the signal chain. I'm sure there are other methods now-a-days, but they will deffinetly not sound like a "vintage desk".

Hey, food for thought designers...discrete line input cards that fit in a .75" wide slot with full throw faders. That's 22 channels in an 11 space BAE style rack...humm...
I think your right about this, I highly doubt they will be running it to an old style active combining network and then to a booster amp stage (just like my Electrodyne does). It isn't the way it's done anymore. That in itself will effect the sound to a degree. For good or bad, who knows? But it will sound different then a 1604.
Old 29th August 2007
  #208
TRW
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Larry - whats the difference between an old style ACA and a 'modern' virtual ground active summing network?

For my money they are both active combining networks and the same thing no?

OK so the new 1608 might not have a balanced fader (I didn't realise the vintage APIs did either - Vin-Gear didn't show me a schematic for the main path but the monitor faders were unbalanced IIRC?).

Anyway I highly expect the signal path will be 2520 active summing for the busses, an unbalanced fader and likely then a +10dB 2520 booster amp driving a 2503 transformer for output...there might even be an insert in there somewhere too.

At worst it might mean one less 2503 transformer in the path compared to a vintage console.

Awaiting to be proven wrong...
-T
Old 29th August 2007
  #209
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Larry - whats the difference between an old style ACA and a 'modern' virtual ground active summing network?

For my money they are both active combining networks and the same thing no?

OK so the new 1608 might not have a balanced fader (I didn't realise the vintage APIs did either - Vin-Gear didn't show me a schematic for the main path but the monitor faders were unbalanced IIRC?).

Anyway I highly expect the signal path will be 2520 active summing for the busses, an unbalaced fader and likely then a +10dB 2520 booster amp driving a 2503 transformer for output...there might even be an insert in there somewhere too.

At worst it might mean one less 2503 transformer in the path compared to a vintage console.

Awaiting to be proven wrong...
-T
I'm not proving anything, what do I have to prove? I agreed with someone that it might not sound the same, BFD!

You are talking the difference of two op-amps in one ACN plus the input and output transformers in the booster amp section. At least that's what my Edyne has in the path. Also do you think the copper or the metal in the transformers are the same as in the days of Yor? I think that might not be the case. Plus the EPA removed all the good carcinogens.

But like I said it may or may not effect the sound. Only time will tell, at this point it's all speculation kids.

End of my part on this thread. Bye bye.
Old 29th August 2007
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Larry - whats the difference between an old style ACA and a 'modern' virtual ground active summing network?

For my money they are both active combining networks and the same thing no?

OK so the new 1608 might not have a balanced fader (I didn't realise the vintage APIs did either - Vin-Gear didn't show me a schematic for the main path but the monitor faders were unbalanced IIRC?).

Anyway I highly expect the signal path will be 2520 active summing for the busses, an unbalaced fader and likely then a +10dB 2520 booster amp driving a 2503 transformer for output...there might even be an insert in there somewhere too.

At worst it might mean one less 2503 transformer in the path compared to a vintage console.

Awaiting to be proven wrong...
-T
TRW,

BTW, thanks for the help on the GeekSlutz forum! thumbsup

I was quite suprised my self to find how much unbalanced signals run thru a vintage API desk. The main or "input" channels faders are also unbalanced just like the monitor section. The signal runs to the fader unbalanced, then back thru a 2520 and x-former. ALL of the bussing is also unbalanced to the ACA's for main busses, cue and echo sends. L & R mix buss are also unbalanced bussing. They all run unbalanced to their ACA's, where they are balanced output via 2520 and x-former, then to fader unbalanced (buss or stereo 2-mix), then to 325 for make up gain where they are again balanced. I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure from memory that the ACA's are not the same tranformers as 325's or on input channels.

For instance, on patchbay, 2-mix patch point is post ACA, so balanced. That return point is pre-fader so unbalanced. Then to 325 where level is boosted and balanced.

I know form the mods I have done on API 8200's, all bussing is now fully balanced. I'm sure the 1608 is also a fully balanced bussing scheme.
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