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The New API 1608 Console Consoles
Old 24th August 2007
  #151
Gear Maniac
 
Allen Wrench's Avatar
 

thumbs down

I’m the biggest API fan in the world… but man, I’m sorry to say that I’ve got to give this a thumbs down.

Here’s why…

- COST: 16x8 $ 50k… way too much guys. In my opinion the size of a studio that would be going with a 16x8 would REALLY be choking on that price tag, ESPECIALLY with the glut of analog consoles out there… EVEN costing in the recapping of a used desk and all that.

- VERSATILITY: 16x8… that’s all it’ll ever be. In this modern time of pro studios, you need versatility. If times get bad, you need to be able to chunk down. If times get good... it’d be cool to be able to expand the thing. And by expand… I don’t mean in $ 50k chunks.

- FRAME: First of all I LOVE goofy looking stuff… but with the height/shape of that thing, I’ll bet there’s going to be BAD reflections all over the place. Granted I haven’t heard it yet and I’m not an acoustic expert, but it looks like that’s going to be problematic.

I’ve heard rumors of this for a while, but honestly I’m surprised that they didn’t do something more modular and versatile. And for all those big studios out there… I seriously doubt that $50k would be a light / whimsical purchase.

Still love my 550, 560 and 512s though!


- ALLEN WRENCH –
international superstar
Old 24th August 2007
  #152
Lives for gear
 
Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I would doubt very much that API would build a console that didn't have an adequate power supply.
Why not, Trident did. I had to up the power supply on both my 80B and my Series 24.
Old 24th August 2007
  #153
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Wrench View Post
I’m the biggest API fan in the world… but man, I’m sorry to say that I’ve got to give this a thumbs down.

Here’s why…

- COST: 16x8 $ 50k… way too much guys. In my opinion the size of a studio that would be going with a 16x8 would REALLY be choking on that price tag, ESPECIALLY with the glut of analog consoles out there… EVEN costing in the recapping of a used desk and all that.

- VERSATILITY: 16x8… that’s all it’ll ever be. In this modern time of pro studios, you need versatility. If times get bad, you need to be able to chunk down. If times get good... it’d be cool to be able to expand the thing. And by expand… I don’t mean in $ 50k chunks.

- FRAME: First of all I LOVE goofy looking stuff… but with the height/shape of that thing, I’ll bet there’s going to be BAD reflections all over the place. Granted I haven’t heard it yet and I’m not an acoustic expert, but it looks like that’s going to be problematic.

I’ve heard rumors of this for a while, but honestly I’m surprised that they didn’t do something more modular and versatile. And for all those big studios out there… I seriously doubt that $50k would be a light / whimsical purchase.

Still love my 550, 560 and 512s though!


- ALLEN WRENCH –
international superstar

I agree. I had posted something similar to this over at Pro Sound Web. Most every manufacturer to date has come out with a remake priced at what the vintage units are going for (LA2A, 1176, U47 clones etc...) which is kind of ridiculous anyway. The top price at what an API 1604 is fetching these days is 35K. Up until just a couple years ago 25K. So for 4 more subgroups you pay 15K to 25K more? Usually cost to produce is 5 times greater then retail so are you really saying it costs 250K to build this thing??? I think not.

I'm happy as hell you guys came out with this product. I've been saying for 5 years now somebody should remake the API 1604 or Neve BCM10 (which I use to own and sold when the numbers became ridiculous on that thing as well). I will be by the API booth to talk to you about this product and kick the tires. (What number are you guys?) I can only hope that a PRO discount will be applied to this product. After all, have you seen what the budgets are for recording these days, if there is a budget at all???
Old 24th August 2007
  #154
Lives for gear
 
Mind-Over-Midi's Avatar
 

Cool looking little board. But the Tonelux stuff looks to be a better, more economic, more flexible way to go, at least for me. Man I still can't make up my mind if I'm going Tonelux or SSL, maybe a mixture of both. (flexible = good!)


Old 24th August 2007
  #155
Lives for gear
 
Gravity8058's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Wrench View Post
I’m the biggest API fan in the world… but man, I’m sorry to say that I’ve got to give this a thumbs down.

Here’s why…

- COST: 16x8 $ 50k… way too much guys. In my opinion the size of a studio that would be going with a 16x8 would REALLY be choking on that price tag, ESPECIALLY with the glut of analog consoles out there… EVEN costing in the recapping of a used desk and all that.

- VERSATILITY: 16x8… that’s all it’ll ever be. In this modern time of pro studios, you need versatility. If times get bad, you need to be able to chunk down. If times get good... it’d be cool to be able to expand the thing. And by expand… I don’t mean in $ 50k chunks.

- FRAME: First of all I LOVE goofy looking stuff… but with the height/shape of that thing, I’ll bet there’s going to be BAD reflections all over the place. Granted I haven’t heard it yet and I’m not an acoustic expert, but it looks like that’s going to be problematic.

I’ve heard rumors of this for a while, but honestly I’m surprised that they didn’t do something more modular and versatile. And for all those big studios out there… I seriously doubt that $50k would be a light / whimsical purchase.

Still love my 550, 560 and 512s though!


- ALLEN WRENCH –
international superstar

.... Buuuuutttttt, in the name of full disclosure you'd want to mention that you're a Tonelux owner and endorser...... right?
Old 24th August 2007
  #156
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jsteiger's Avatar
What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Wrench View Post
I’m the biggest API fan in the world… but man, I’m sorry to say that I’ve got to give this a thumbs down.

- FRAME: First of all I LOVE goofy looking stuff… but with the height/shape of that thing, I’ll bet there’s going to be BAD reflections all over the place. Granted I haven’t heard it yet and I’m not an acoustic expert, but it looks like that’s going to be problematic.

- ALLEN WRENCH –
international superstar
How in the he*l is this goofy looking??? I guess if this new(old) design has BAD reflections, then so do most of the high end, world class studios. This is the classic standard type design that API has always used. The Legacy and Vision stuff is only slighty different. I beg to differ on the "problematic" statement. I think this new 1608 desk looks pretty bad-a*s! thumbsup
Attached Thumbnails
The New API 1608 Console-ph1_vision_m.jpg  
Old 24th August 2007
  #157
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stevetgn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind-Over-Midi View Post
Cool looking little board. But the Tonelux stuff looks to be a better, more economic, more flexible way to go, at least for me. Man I still can't make up my mind if I'm going Tonelux or SSL, maybe a mixture of both. (flexible = good!)


If ya can't afford the new 1608... then SSL with API & Tonelux EQs
Old 24th August 2007
  #158
Gear Addict
 

wow

thumbsup I want one
Old 24th August 2007
  #159
Lives for gear
 

I'll agree that this new 1608 does not necessarily represent a great value when you simply look at the numbers.

One could get a lot of mileage out of some 500 series racks stacked with 550's, 560's, 512's and maybe even a couple 525's for far less money... and I can't think of anything I need less than 16 more (expensive) mic pre's.

I think this desk is overpriced from the working engineer's perspective. It takes a long time to recoup that type of investment, and purchasing a desk like this may also necessitate a paradigm shift from ITB to OTB. Without attractive pricing on your side, that's a tough move to justify unless you have a major case of gearslutitis.

On the contrary, I think it may be appropriately priced from API's perspective. This is a niche product for a niche market and I'm sure they will be able to move enough of these consoles to keep themselves happy. Personally, I would much rather see something in the 15k-30k price range with the same feature set, because that type of investment is much easier to justify. So what's the result? In all likelihood, these desks will end up in the basements of doctors and lawyers before it will end up in every day working studios. They are simply priced out of the realm of most guys that are trying to scale down and stay afloat in the biz.

API could have made a big push in that affordable region but did not. That's ok... they probably shouldn't have. If they offered their desk for $20k, people would have questioned the integrity of the circuitry or craftsmanship and they would risk tarnishing their hard earned reputation. I'd argue that you're not getting a lot for $50k with this desk, and there are better ways to spend $50k in your studio... but if you really want a new API console this is certainly a very attractive option. I'd love one of these... it's basically the perfect feature set for me. But just because I'm not sitting on $50k doesn't mean API should lower their prices.

Fear not though- if you want the API sound without having to power a desk you can still cobble together a pretty cool rack of their stuff at a relatively fair price. If anything, this desk will be a springboard for more 500 series sales because of folks that see the entire pie and want it... but can only afford a slice.

Now somebody buy this thing and invite us all over.
Old 24th August 2007
  #160
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
If anything, this desk will be a springboard for more 500 series sales because of folks that see the entire pie and want it... but can only afford a slice.

Now somebody buy this thing and invite us all over.
pretty much sums it up bro.
Old 24th August 2007
  #161
I've heard a lot of talk about this console being over-priced, but for what you get I can't think of a cheaper alternative.

For a Tonelux set-up you're gonna need at least 6 fully loaded racks at $7k-$14k each, which is getting very close to or maybe even over $50k WITHOUT THE FADERS or the console frame.

You can't compare the SSL X-Rack because there's no busses and only one aux.

Yes, you can build a console to your own specification by choosing bits and bobs from various manufacturers (which is what I'm doing) but it takes a hell of a lot of time, it will probably cost more money in the end and it will probably never feel and look as ergonomic as this, which you can just call up, order, sit back and enjoy.

I can't afford one anyway and there'll be more choice in future when hopefully I can.
Old 24th August 2007
  #162
Gear Maniac
 
Allen Wrench's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravity8058 View Post
.... Buuuuutttttt, in the name of full disclosure you'd want to mention that you're a Tonelux owner and endorser...... right?
Oh, TOTALLY! Probably UNLIKE most people here I put my money where my mouth is. After assessing all options in my price range for consoles, Tonelux had both the BEST sound, flexability and value. After seeing this 1608, my decision about going with Tonelux was completely correct.

So Tonelux owner… F U C K YEAH, I also own a few of API pieces as well… 7 - API 560’s, 4 - API 550’s, and 6 - 512’s. I actually own MORE API Eqs and mic PREs than I do Tonelux.

RE: endorsements… I endorse them as far as saying they make GREAT gear, they don’t endorse me. Oh wait, I did get a free t-shirt! As far as I know, Tonelux doesn’t give deals to anyone. Every piece of TL gear I own was fully paid for by myself.

As far as my personal TL rig, I’m at 56 channels (at mixdown) w 8 TL Eqs. Price was a bit over $ 30k.

I don’t know… think my opinion is worth considering?


- ALLEN WRENCH -
Old 24th August 2007
  #163
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Ghost Logic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
I can only hope that a PRO discount will be applied to this product. After all, have you seen what the budgets are for recording these days, if there is a budget at all???
How would a PRO discount work--is there any market for this console out of the "PRO" market? Call me crazy but I doubt many "semi-PRO" and "amatuer" consumers are going to walk into their local GC, see an API 1608 on the floor and drop $50K.
Old 25th August 2007
  #164
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
I'd argue that you're not getting a lot for $50k with this desk, and there are better ways to spend $50k in your studio
16 preamp/eq's @$1800 = $28,800
CR section (talk back, monitors etc = $2000
16 channel summing box with faders w. inserts points = $6,000
Cheap MDF Argosy Studio desk = $3000

Already at 40k and we don't even have it cabled together. What about the meter bridge - a few more thousand there. What about the bussing, routing, FX returns et al? Thousands more.

Seriously, I go into peoples basements that have spent way more than 50k for a similar set up but is piece meal and messy.

50k is f-all for a decent front end.
Old 25th August 2007
  #165
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
16 preamp/eq's @$1800 = $28,800
CR section (talk back, monitors etc = $2000
16 channel summing box with faders w. inserts points = $6,000
Cheap MDF Argosy Studio desk = $3000

Already at 40k and we don't even have it cabled together. What about the meter bridge - a few more thousand there. What about the bussing, routing, FX returns et al? Thousands more.

Seriously, I go into peoples basements that have spent way more than 50k for a similar set up but is piece meal and messy.

50k is f-all for a decent front end.
Alright your logic is flawed. The price to produce one individual preamp is far greater then a console.

I'd still buy a used 1604 for 30 or 35K and save the 15 to 20K on this puppy.

Better yet I've got 5K into my Electrodyne 16x4 console. I'd find and rebuild another one before I shell out 50K of which it will take 10 years to recoup in a market like this.

Again, it's a great tool, just charge the 35K it should be going for not 50K. As the man said a bunch of wanna be musicians like doctors and lawyers are going to end up with these things in their basements.
Old 25th August 2007
  #166
Lives for gear
 
Mind-Over-Midi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetgn View Post
If ya can't afford the new 1608... then SSL with API & Tonelux EQs
That's exactly what I mean!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
API could have made a big push in that affordable region but did not. That's ok... they probably shouldn't have. If they offered their desk for $20k, people would have questioned the integrity of the circuitry or craftsmanship and they would risk tarnishing their hard earned reputation. I'd argue that you're not getting a lot for $50k with this desk, and there are better ways to spend $50k in your studio... but if you really want a new API console this is certainly a very attractive option. I'd love one of these... it's basically the perfect feature set for me. But just because I'm not sitting on $50k doesn't mean API should lower their prices.


If I were rolling in the dough this would be an easy decision for me, I'd take one of these with the expander unit for 32 inputs, add the Vision Automation package when available and have a happy life! But, alas, I'm not so wealthy! At least not right now, I'm planning on being wealthy though! Anyone care to loan me a few bucks in the meantime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
.................that's a tough move to justify unless you have a major case of gearslutitis.
In that case, maybe I should just take out a loan now and get it over with!heh


Old 25th August 2007
  #167
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Alright your logic is flawed. The price to produce one individual preamp is far greater then a console.
But in the case of API, their modules are already mass produced and are fetching what they are fetching - it's already built into the cost. What your talking about is a volume discount for the individual purchaser. Fine, that's great. But in the case of this desk, I highly doubt their margins are as high as you think. The bus module obviously isn't mass produced, and I remember "Arni" talking about a new Helios desk and saying how the bus modules are the expesive and (PITA) part of doing something like this.

Quote:
Again, it's a great tool, just charge the 35K it should be going for not 50K. As the man said a bunch of wanna be musicians like doctors and lawyers are going to end up with these things in their basements.
Ultimately I don't know the inside details and am just "wagging" outloud. I think if they could have presented this for 35k and still make decent money, they made a big mistake not to.
Old 25th August 2007
  #168
Gear Maniac
 
Allen Wrench's Avatar
 

Yes, but as consumers… it’s not our job to support companies that make bad decisions. It’s up to these companies to come up with products that sell. There’s a fine balance between quality and affordability.

I’d agree that a LIST price of $ 35k would be their magic number. But $ 50k prices them out of 98% of the market.

Rather than trotting out a product that was cool in the early 70s, they need to go back to the drawing board and innovate.

I’m not saying this is a bad product… API sound and quality are an industry standard, I’m just saying that this is too expensive to be viable.


- ALLEN WRENCH -
Old 25th August 2007
  #169
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post
Again, it's a great tool, just charge the 35K it should be going for not 50K.
Should be going for? Who comes up with the number?

API is not a budget console maker. In fact to be able to buy a brand new API for 50 grand is pretty remarkable. If I were in the market (and had the budget) I wouldn't even think twice.
Old 25th August 2007
  #170
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Wrench View Post
Yes, but as consumers… it’s not our job to support companies that make bad decisions. It’s up to these companies to come up with products that sell. There’s a fine balance between quality and affordability.

I’d agree that a LIST price of $ 35k would be their magic number. But $ 50k prices them out of 98% of the market.

Rather than trotting out a product that was cool in the early 70s, they need to go back to the drawing board and innovate.

I’m not saying this is a bad product… API sound and quality are an industry standard, I’m just saying that this is too expensive to be viable.


- ALLEN WRENCH -
Well it's our job to buy things that fit our needs and it's API's job to create products that they think will sell, so no one is really telling anyone what to do. But IMO viablity isn't THAT bad.

I mean for 60k a guy could pair this with an HD rig and have a world class front end, CR and monitor control, and a 16 channels summing unit with extremely flexable routing to interface all his outboard. It seems that this is how most mid level studios are working anyhow. It's pretty much peanuts if you ask me.

Sorry for belabouring the issue. I'm just thinking from the POV of how much it would cost to set up a 96 track studio before decent digital arrived - it's all comparitively a joke now.
Old 25th August 2007
  #171
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TornadoTed's Avatar
I think it is a lovely mixer and will make a lot of people happy. I'd probably buy one if money wasn't an issue. I agree with a few that $50k sound a lot for a 16 channel mixer with no automation, re-call etc

As a realist I'd prefer 4x 3124+ for $10,000
A couple of 5500's for $6,000 and spend more time finding the right mic and position rather than grabbing for EQ! Use those EQ's as hardware inserts on money tracks, vox, snare etc at mixdown.

NOWHERE near as sexy but I bet you would get very similar results at the end of the day for a 1/3rd of the price!!
Old 25th August 2007
  #172
Gear Maniac
 

Over priced

Over priced An empty console with just the master module and meters is $18748 but I'm sure API is hoping on the "I got to have crowd" to fill there pockets. Maybe it's a better price than the 5088 which has no pre-amps but a big name plate taht says Rupert Neve that's worth $20,000

API 1608 Console, complete with rear patch panel Includes:
16-548B Input Modules, 12-550A Eq's, 4-560 Eq's & 16-312 Mic Pre's (integral in 548B)
Price-$49,900

16 channel Expander Includes:
16-548B Input Modules, 12 550A Eq's, 4-560 Eq's & 16-312 Mic Pre's (integral in 548B)
Price-$39,900

Options:
Future Vision Automation, (16 Channel) $10,000 (est. March 1 2008)
16 channel automation expansion: $5,000
Flight Case with Casters: $1980
Stand (for Floor operation): TBD

500 Series Module Addition - MSRP

Module Deletion: (per module @ 85% of Retail)
550A(g): MSRP $1195 - Delete $1016
560: MSRP $795 - Delete $676
548B: MSRP $1195 - Delete $1016
Old 26th August 2007
  #173
Gear Maniac
 
jb_studio's Avatar
 

In my opinion, the price is totally reasonable. Folks need to remember that this is an API console for -- get ready -- people who WANT an API console. Of course you can "assemble" something from bits and bobs that will have similar features and thereby save some money, but it still won't be an API console. If that doesn't matter to you, great...you can mix and match outboard and be totally happy. But for people who prefer to work on a small, high-quality console, the 1608 is great news.

And let's face it..."Why can't it be cheaper" is a pretty common complaint on this site, whether we're talking about consoles, mic pre's, EQ's and so forth. And yes, we all want the tools we use to be cheaper. But few of us are in a position to really comment on what it takes to bring a product like this to market. I mean, it all seems rather easy from the engineer's chair when you are just comparing components and pricing them out, but it's never so simple when you are running a corporation, paying for R&D and overhead, paying for marketing and ads, responsible for dozens of people's jobs, and still hoping to turn a profit!

And of course someone cynical will say, "But it uses 550's and 560's! Those are already designed, so no R&D there!" Whatever. What about the input channel strip, the busses, the metalwork, the power supply, the line input section, the meters? What about adapting the Legacy logic? What about testing it and making sure it all works and sounds great? The bottom line is that some folks at API worked really hard to design this baby, and if you order one, they will need to get paid. Just like other folks at API have to build it for you, and they will also have to get paid...

When you work hard, don't you want to get paid too?

Anyway, if the 1608 sounds as good as we hope it does, then API should be applauded for coming out with a true high-end piece that doesn't cut corners on quality. Lots of companies are aiming for the semi-pro market at the moment, which is totally justified as that's where most of the action is, but it looks like API is aiming higher -- successful producers and artists with private studios, B rooms for larger studio complexes, and maybe some A rooms for mid-size facilities in smaller cities. That's a pretty bold market to go after, all things considered. Even so, it looks like they may just have a winner -- JB

Last edited by jb_studio; 26th August 2007 at 03:37 AM.. Reason: clarity
Old 26th August 2007
  #174
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Meriphew's Avatar
 

I think the price seems fair and reasonable for what you're getting.
Old 26th August 2007
  #175
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Should be going for? Who comes up with the number?

API is not a budget console maker. In fact to be able to buy a brand new API for 50 grand is pretty remarkable. If I were in the market (and had the budget) I wouldn't even think twice.

API is not a budget console maker, no sh*t. And 50K or even 35K are not budget prices. At least not for someone who EARNS their living in the pro audio business. Key phrase being "earns a living". Give me a break.

The market comes up with these numbers and that is what a used 1604 will fetch these days. The vintage unit should ALWAYS be worth more then the remake otherwise the manufacture blew it IMHO. Just as I said before, what price has just about every other vintage reissue come out for??? Usually the same price as the vintage unit (at first) then it starts to come down from there.

But hey you guys keep standing up and defending these manufactures and we'll let them charge any friggin price they want. After all there will always be some rich wanna be that will be able to afford to buy these boards. It's only many professionals (that would want to use a product like this) who will be priced out of the market for it.

Sorry but API needs to hear this from potential buyers. I have always loved their consoles, one of my favorites to mix rock records on. I just wish that this reissue was more in line with vintage API units.
Old 26th August 2007
  #176
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
The vintage unit should ALWAYS be worth more then the remake otherwise the manufacture blew it IMHO
I've been telling this to automakers for decades...nobody bloody listensheh
Old 26th August 2007
  #177
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertone View Post

The market comes up with these numbers and that is what a used 1604 will fetch these days. The vintage unit should ALWAYS be worth more then the remake otherwise the manufacture blew it IMHO. Just as I said before, what price has just about every other vintage reissue come out for??? Usually the same price as the vintage unit (at first) then it starts to come down from there.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes there are *some* vintage pieces that are demanding outragous prices, leading manufacturers to reissue them and try to take advantage of that. Are there any mixing boards where that is the case?
Old 26th August 2007
  #178
Here for the gear
 

api 1608

I Think the console looks great .we already know it will sound amazing and will have some great features including the available automation and expansiblity to 32 channels. as far as the price being a lot lower than an original 1604. I don't know about that ,neve/ams charges $4400 for there reissue 1081 micpre not really much less than an original .besides thatl i'd take this console over a 1604 anyday of the week. not only for the features ,although that is huge ,but also because i love gear that works and i also love a 5 year guarantee .it seems no matter what we ask for when it becomes a reality and were faced with the price we have to badmouth the company's that are going out on a limb the design and manufacture the gear we ask for . I wanted this console 2 years ago and i built something similiar with api and boutique audio's help trust me it was not cheaper than $50,000 .it's very cool but this is better in many ways so i'm thrilled . if you want cheap don't look at api .they make there stuff to sound good .this thing is built like a tank and will be worth every penny .
Old 26th August 2007
  #179
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
if you want cheap don't look at api .they make there stuff to sound good .this thing is built like a tank and will be worth every penny .

Thanks Jack.

And welcome to the forum! heh
Old 26th August 2007
  #180
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seaneldon's Avatar
 

my only real question is "where in the flying fvck are the bottle opener and ashtray in the arm rest?"

i'm just saying, when you spend that kinda coin on something, though it is nice in it's stock form...the thing should probably open my beer.
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