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Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 16th August 2007
  #1
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng....

Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
Old 16th August 2007
  #2
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That's probably because so many people in the industry don't have any formal training of any kind except maybe business. Heaven forbid they should be a "trained" musician or engineer.
Old 16th August 2007
  #3
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HEADROOM's Avatar
 

I once saw a concert of Yehudi Menuhin and Stephan Grappelli. Although YM was without a doubt the better formally trained player, in my opinion SG was the superiour player.

Point is: theory and practice is important but the heart is even more important.

As a consequence sometimes the feel or the heart or whatever you may call it is even more important than the formal musical training.

In a formal sense guys like Mick Jagger or Joe Cocker are bad Singers, Pavarotti is a good , well trained singer....

I wouldnt trade Mick for Pavarotti to join the Stones if you see what I mean....
Old 16th August 2007
  #4
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People who are too lazy to do their homework often scoff at people who aren't. I believe rappers call these people "haters"? I run into this attitude sometimes. I went to one of the recording schools that everyone here complains about, and while I don't think school can give you everything you need (like ears), I did learn a lot there. I think the problem is that the schools act like as soon as you graduate you'll be mixing for major artists, when we all know it takes quite a bit longer than that. I'm glad I went to school for the technical knowledge, and I go to hang around more experienced engineers to boot. If people see you're eager and have a desire to learn you'd be surprised how willing they are to share their knowledge.
I've never had anyone give me crap about going to school who actually went themselves. I also used to get crap from guitar players because I knew how to read music.
Old 16th August 2007
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
hi bruce!

i wanted to say i loved going back and re-reading your posts about duke ellington, who is an idol of mine.

as you know, duke is interesting in the way that he shunned formal training. when someone asked him why he didn't go to juilliard, for instance, he said, "if i did that, i would lose everything i have."

also, i was reading about duke talking about the modern generation of jazz players, (this would have been about the '50's or so) remarking that while they had a lot of training, and could do more, technically, than the earlier musicians, the early musicians had more heart, more soul, so to speak, in their playing. i believe he is talking about people like bub miley, etc... the real originators.

i can't speak on engineering programs, but i think music schools train you to play how greats in the past have played. i heard carlos santana say that there are millions of guitar players in the world, but you've only heard of about 30, who established their own style, and the millions are all trying to sound like them.

great thread topic! as one who went through the whole gamut of formal training and sometimes feel i wasted money, in a sense, (still paying back student loans), i am interested to hear more opinions about this!

(btw, bruce... those sessions you did w. duke... do you know if those were released on "the private collection" series which was put out by the smada label?)
Old 16th August 2007
  #6
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

"It is all important."

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
hi bruce!

i wanted to say i loved going back and re-reading your posts about duke ellington, who is an idol of mine.

as you know, duke is interesting in the way that he shunned formal training. when someone asked him why he didn't go to juilliard, for instance, he said, "if i did that, i would lose everything i have."

also, i was reading about duke talking about the modern generation of jazz players, (this would have been about the '50's or so) remarking that while they had a lot of training, and could do more, technically, than the earlier musicians, the early musicians had more heart, more soul, so to speak, in their playing. i believe he is talking about people like bub miley, etc... the real originators.

i can't speak on engineering programs, but i think music schools train you to play how greats in the past have played. i heard carlos santana say that there are millions of guitar players in the world, but you've only heard of about 30, who established their own style, and the millions are all trying to sound like them.

great thread topic! as one who went through the whole gamut of formal training and sometimes feel i wasted money, in a sense, (still paying back student loans), i am interested to hear more opinions about this!

(btw, bruce... those sessions you did w. duke... do you know if those were released on "the private collection" series which was put out by the smada label?)
Soultrane......

The thing about this thread that I think is really important is that fact that "It is all important."

In other words.... Education isn't worth a poop if it doesn't focus a WELL-TRAINED, self-disciplned talent....

By the same token... Talent isn't worth a poop(And can get quickly obscured) if it doesn't focus a good education...

Bruce
Old 16th August 2007
  #7
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I would absolutely love to regain my respect for the educational system here in the US. I believe in education, and think it's importance is paramount in the pursuit of both professional and personal growth. That being said, (and I'm referring to trade and technical schools not musical education) 90% of the students that are coming out of these engineering and sound reinforcement programs, have learned next to nothing. It's absolutely shocking that one can come away with so little knowledge after a good time of "so called" education. The engineering schools IMHO are a complete joke. The knowledge that my interns receive in 1 week far exceeds what they could or would ever receive from these programs which are in my opinion shams and disgraces.
That being said, a formal education at a reputable university is priceless.
Old 16th August 2007
  #8
Probably because this business has turned from occupation to avocation. Most folks that got in early had some sort of technical or musical background, these skills were required in the early days as music was more complicated than it is now. Those skills enhanced the AE's and producer's job performance.

Now, the most important job skills needed are some experience and much desire. The need to read a music score are mostly gone as is the knowledge of the gear you probably built yourself in the old days, now you just need to be able to read an instuction manual and count to 4. Detecting out of tune instruments is an optional skill these days. Alignment of tape machines has become a lost art.

Computer skills have become more important than listening skills.

So, where has this brought us?

The doldrums of music, stagnant, uninspiring stuff that's intended to be forgotten as soon as the next release is issued. In other words, disposable music.

Interesting times we live in.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 16th August 2007
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Soultrane......

The thing about this thread that I think is really important is that fact that "It is all important."

In other words.... Education isn't worth a poop if it doesn't focus a WELL-TRAINED, self-disciplned talent....

By the same token... Talent isn't worth a poop(And can get quickly obscured) if it doesn't focus a good education...

Bruce
i guess when you say "formal" you get me thinking of school, as in, 4 years and you get a b.a. degree.

the joke at berklee college has always been that if you get a degree, you must not be very talented, otherwise you'd have gotten a gig and gotten out on the road before graduation.

when i listen to thelonious monk, or better, when i study his scores etc., i think, now this is a really educated, well-trained, and self-disciplined musician. but i'm pretty sure he didn't get a b.a. in music.

i agree that talent and education go hand in hand.

i'm just not sure where schools, as they are currently constituted, fit into all this.

just like, i'm sure that good health and good doctors go hand in hand... i just don't know where hmo's fit into that picture.

does a school actually help the music education process? can you learn to be a professional musician in school? if you are a really talented musician, will school help you even more, or will it hinder you?

i imagine a talent like mozart, if he/she exists today, would wash out of most music schools in the country in the first semester.

so, the question is, where does a really talented youngster go today to get more training, if not a school?
Old 16th August 2007
  #10
Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Soultrane......
Education isn't worth a poop if it doesn't focus a WELL-TRAINED, self-disciplned talent....

Bruce
That's exactly why I was thinking there isn't as much respect for "clasical" training.

The industry, and people in general are more concerned with what you can do for them right now. Maybe rightfully so...

I'm a classically trained musician, and technician. While it's a good foundation, I'm a little put off by people who tout the fact that they have a degree in whatever. It makes me think it's the height of accomplishment for them. (Why be so proud of a starting point?)
Old 16th August 2007
  #11
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Jackie Treehorn's Avatar
 

Interesting topic.

I don't know if there's any other profession where formal training (i.e. classrooms/lectures/tests) is routinely scoffed at by the guys who are making a living doing the job. Can you imagine a room full of pilots or doctors sitting in a room mocking a junior member of their profession? (sneering: "Can you believe the new guy went to school to learn how to do this!!??!!)

But at the same time, the pro audio engineers will scream, "This field is being ruined by the do-it-yourself-ers!"

I'm sure there are strong arguments to support both those positions, but keep in mind that smart, motivated people could take many paths (including formal training) in the music business.

In a perfect world, we would all have a Swedien-esque mentor to learn this craft from!

Anyway, once you learn to take raving gear reviews with a grain of salt, the gearslutz forums can be a gold mine of information.

(Bruce, sincerest "thanks" from a learn-it-yourselfer who is trying to soak up all I can!)
Old 16th August 2007
  #12
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
hi bruce!

i wanted to say i loved going back and re-reading your posts about duke ellington, who is an idol of mine.

as you know, duke is interesting in the way that he shunned formal training. when someone asked him why he didn't go to juilliard, for instance, he said, "if i did that, i would lose everything i have."

also, i was reading about duke talking about the modern generation of jazz players, (this would have been about the '50's or so) remarking that while they had a lot of training, and could do more, technically, than the earlier musicians, the early musicians had more heart, more soul, so to speak, in their playing. i believe he is talking about people like bub miley, etc... the real originators.

i can't speak on engineering programs, but i think music schools train you to play how greats in the past have played. i heard carlos santana say that there are millions of guitar players in the world, but you've only heard of about 30, who established their own style, and the millions are all trying to sound like them.

great thread topic! as one who went through the whole gamut of formal training and sometimes feel i wasted money, in a sense, (still paying back student loans), i am interested to hear more opinions about this!

(btw, bruce... those sessions you did w. duke... do you know if those were released on "the private collection" series which was put out by the smada label?)
Duke, also a hero of mine, might not be the best example of success built on lack of formal (maybe we should say serious?) study. Duke origninated a whole new world for us. But Billy Strayhon's contirbution as arranger for over 3 decades cannot be overlooked. He attended Pittburgh Musical Institute.

Much serious education by FULL TIME musicians happens by constant analysis of other peoples work and constant interaction with others. I think Duke is a great example of this. His efforts and influence are not diminished by having the good sense to use an arrange and composer who had formal training and maybe more importantly studied classical and jazz therory his whold life.

As a side note, it is believed that Strayhorn wrote A Train.

Billy Strayhorn: Biography and Much More from Answers.com

If you have great talent formal education cannot hurt you. Sometimes people are greatly successful (writing, leading, etc. as Duke did) very early and simply find collaborators to fill in any blanks they have.

As far as other genres go, lack of training contributes (is not the sole cause of) so much of each genre sounding the same.
Old 16th August 2007
  #13
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

Didn't go for it that way....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Probably because this business has turned from occupation to avocation. Most folks that got in early had some sort of technical or musical background, these skills were required in the early days as music was more complicated than it is now. Those skills enhanced the AE's and producer's job performance.

Now, the most important job skills needed are some experience and much desire. The need to read a music score are mostly gone as is the knowledge of the gear you probably built yourself in the old days, now you just need to be able to read an instuction manual and count to 4. Detecting out of tune instruments is an optional skill these days. Alignment of tape machines has become a lost art.

Computer skills have become more important than listening skills.

So, where has this brought us?

The doldrums of music, stagnant, uninspiring stuff that's intended to be forgotten as soon as the next release is issued. In other words, disposable music.

Interesting times we live in.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Jim......

"Music has always had it's doldrums, stagnant, uninspiring stuff that's intended to be forgotten as soon as the next release is issued. In other words, disposable music."

But most of the fantastic musicians that I have worked with didn't go for it that way....

I am very lucky but right here in Ocala I have found many excellent musicians and vocalists.... Young folks who can read a score.

"Interesting times we live in????" I think so....

I am working with Trio right now that is superb!

Bruce
Old 16th August 2007
  #14
Gear Head
 
Old Dog's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post
...i think music schools train you to play how greats in the past have played. i heard carlos santana say that there are millions of guitar players in the world, but you've only heard of about 30, who established their own style, and the millions are all trying to sound like them.
I think this is very true. Having gone to a prominent music school, and very appreciative of the education I received, I chose not to get my degree in performance or composition, but production and engineering, in part because I knew having a degree in one of these fields wouldn't make me successful, nor give me creativity or innovation.

Music is all about "saying something." Some would call that soul. Most of what is taught in formal music education is the method of the "masters" - the same method they were trained by. But, education was not what set them apart. It was those who "broke the rules" who became "masters." It is the nature of man to formulize things, but no one can copy self expression or "soul."

I guess what I'm trying to say is if education and training is an end, we miss the point and we end up being mindless clones. But, if we use it as a foundation and stepping stone to innovation - as many masters did - it can catapult us to greatness. Unfortunately, many well-trained musicians unconciously think being a copy cat = greatness, when in actuality it equals boredom.

As a producer and A&R rep for an independent label, I'm always looking for artists/writers who "say something" - regardless of their education. However, as a trained musician, it is frustrating to work with others who are "illiterate" - who "speak" the same language, but can't read or write. That's not snobbery, it's just practical. Who in there right mind would think illiteracy is a good thing. Music is no different.
Old 16th August 2007
  #15
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Quote:
Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.
I think it's indifference. And rightly so. I don't think anyone is disrespectfull, but ultimately what counts are results. IE, no one cares how you got "there" - it's just that you better BE "there".

The real problem lies in retrospect, and letting that make you narrow minded. Imagine an ice cube on a table. Now try to imagine what it would look like once it melted. Pretty easy huh?

But if I asked you to imagine a puddle of water and then asked you to tell me what the ice cube looked like...well it could be anything, maybe not even an ice cube. IE we can understand cause & effect much easier than seeing an effect and imagining it's cause.

So to tie this together, I think the indifference is natural as the only thing we know for sure are the results - but the recipe is just a guess.

PS, I'm reading this book that is really twisting my head - ergo my responseheh
Old 16th August 2007
  #16
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Indeed the broader point might be 'respect for knowledge'; regardless of how it is attained.
Old 16th August 2007
  #17
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u b k's Avatar
 

just to refocus things a bit, i don't think bruce was asking whether education is a good thing, or a helpful thing, or where it fits in the schema of art/soul/creativity. if i'm reading him correctly, he wants to know why it's so common in our biz to see open hostility and strong negative sentiments against the very notion of being trained or educated.

that's a very different inquiry imo, and has nothing to do with education and everything to do with human interpersonal dynamics: ego, insecurity, competition, and jealousy are the traits that come to mind.

to be fair, i have personally experienced a roughly equal amount of the same sorts of animosity coming from the 'educated' and directed at the 'illiterati.' spend a day recording a group of classical players, chat with them about popular music and musicians, see what kinds of attitudes you encounter.

bruce, i would also note that you not-so-subtly equate training with being 'totally involved.' while i don't disagree with that, i would also say that *most* musicians i know are totally involved, in the sense that the amount of dedication, time, and energy they put into their art is impressive, often bordering on obsession. but culture is a funny bird; when a lover is obsessed we call him a stalker, when a musician is obsessed we call him passionate.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 16th August 2007
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
I think it's indifference. And rightly so. I don't think anyone is disrespectfull, but ultimately what counts are results. IE, no one cares how you got "there" - it's just that you better BE "there".

The real problem lies in retrospect, and letting that make you narrow minded. Imagine an ice cube on a table. Now try to imagine what it would look like once it melted. Pretty easy huh?

But if I asked you to imagine a puddle of water and then asked you to tell me what the ice cube looked like...well it could be anything, maybe not even an ice cube. IE we can understand cause & effect much easier than seeing an effect and imagining it's cause.

So to tie this together, I think the indifference is natural as the only thing we know for sure are the results - but the recipe is just a guess.

PS, I'm reading this book that is really twisting my head - ergo my responseheh
WOW! That is a great and unique perspective .
Old 16th August 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
Duke, also a hero of mine, might not be the best example of success built on lack of formal (maybe we should say serious?) study. Duke origninated a whole new world for us. But Billy Strayhon's contirbution as arranger for over 3 decades cannot be overlooked. He attended Pittburgh Musical Institute.
true strayhorn was wonderful...

but, duke had done many, MANY advanced and complex arrangements before strayhorn... remember, strayhorn came to work for duke when duke was already 40 years old and had already established himself as a compositional / arranging genius.

another interesting story is the story of david matthews, (the arranger, not the guitar player), from cincy who had a very very solid conservatory education and was fluent on a number of instruments besides having done alot of arranging.

well, james brown had heard about him, and told him to do some arrangements. so, he got a bunch of arrangements together, and james came into the studio to hear them.

matthews said james listened to about 16 bars of each arrangement and kept saying next, next, next.

finally, brown said, "aw, this ain't hip, it's straight" and was about to walk out.

one of the guys working for james said, "mr. brown, i think you should listen to this" and went into a section later on in one of the tunes, which brown liked.

he said to matthews, when you're making records, you've got to put the hip stuff at the beginning, otherwise people won't listen to it.

now, i wonder if matthews ever learned that from his esteemed professors at conservatory? put the hip stuff at the beginning, or no one will buy.
Old 16th August 2007
  #20
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No doubt you cannot get all your education in one place. Bless Mr. Brown. NO disrespect inteded to Duke, but the arrangements did get MUCH more sophisticated with Billy don't you think?

But the point is that Billy's education (coupled with his and Duke's extraordinary talent)l ikely borught something to the table that would not have been there otherwise.

Any increased (sometimes just a different type) of knowledge is a good thing.
Old 16th August 2007
  #21
mds
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I've found myself not telling people about my education. I have a bachelor's in Classical performance and a Master's in Jazz. If I tell people that, they think I'm some ****** shred nerd.

I've found the skills I learned through studying to be extremely useful, not just musically, but functionally too. I got into this because I'm obsessive about music and want to know everything about it, so I studied on my own for years, went to school, and still study, practice, etc. I hope it makes me a better musician, engineer, and producer.

Mike
Old 16th August 2007
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
just to refocus things a bit, i don't think bruce was asking whether education is a good thing, or a helpful thing, or where it fits in the schema of art/soul/creativity. if i'm reading him correctly, he wants to know why it's so common in our biz to see open hostility and strong negative sentiments against the very notion of being trained or educated.

that's a very different inquiry imo, and has nothing to do with education and everything to do with human interpersonal dynamics: ego, insecurity, competition, and jealousy are the traits that come to mind.
the miles davis autobiography is an interesting read on this subject, as well. miles, as is well known, was accepted to juilliard school, but dropped out, feeling that the music that was really happening in the early 40's was being made in harlem and on 52nd street, charlie parker, dizzy gillespie and the like.

miles had nothing good to say about juilliard or music schools in general, and viewed the whole scene as so many museum curators.

it has to be said that the history of music in america seems to be some really creative people coming forth with a new style, new techniques, etc., and the schools trying to understand it, usually after the creators have moved on to something else, and distill it to their students.

in fact, this goes back even to the days of mozart, who had a student who asked him to show him how to write an opera.

mozart told the student, "you're not ready to write an opera."

the student said, "well, you wrote your first opera when you were 15."

mozart said, "yes, but i didn't have to ask someone to show me how."
Old 16th August 2007
  #23
Gear Head
totally involved

I really think this is at the heart of why the biz is in flux/crisis.

seems funny that a/r people are so obviously tone deaf and more concerned with looks
and pure sales than talent,creativity, and originality. This may seem a tiresome argument but I really do think it's one of the biggest issues why the musician suffers most. There will always be 'untrained' writers/players/engineers and I think it's healthy for the advancement of music. but I do think there is a negative bias towards people who do know song form,harmony,rhythm,history etc..

in my own experience it seems other players give you a lot more respect if you know the difference between different rhythms,chords,reading. I don't like to play gigs with people who are having trouble with chord progression or grooves...it's old man. It doesn't seem like much to ask to have studied your instrument a little.

in my limited experience with the big record companies I've been appalled at the level of musicianship of the producers, musical directors and a/r..."how did they even succeed?" I wonder...they get 'results' I guess.

for me I am doing my part and am TOTALLY INVOLVED in making music. I teach a lot of lessons, teach free lessons for kids where there is no music program or financial way for them to learn. I write songs,engineer,record, play gigs 2-3 nights a week, listen to music, buy cd's, read read read...help others and spread the love of music. I have done this for a living for a while...


I guess a lot of the time I don't see this kind of relationship (with music) in the biz side...what a shame.

Old 16th August 2007
  #24
Very interesting.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I believe the core Answer for the value of education is understanding the roll that school/Teachers have in helping the individual being successful.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
I think that the purpose of the school/teacher is to provide the student with the TOOLS to know how to learn and explore by himself. To be successful in your field you must keep learning and exploring constantly otherwise you will be left behind. Some of us can figure out how to do it themselves, but I value academic training as a short cut and not as waist of time. Most school will introduce you to many subject associate with being a professional sound engineer, and it is up to you, the individual to make the most out of it. You can be in the library or do an internship (opportunities provided by most schools) or you can drink your self to death, do the minimum to walk away with diploma and think you will get anywhere. It is what makes ones on top of his game… and successful!<o:p></o:p>
Now, if we keep this in mind, it is unfortunate stereotype that schools get from the professionals in our industry. Don’t blame the school, just judge each individual for his talent and ambition. Education is a positive thing.[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']<o:p></o:p>[/FONT]
Old 16th August 2007
  #25
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Quote:
To be successful in your field you must keep learning and exploring constantly otherwise you will be left behind.
I would add that you have to come to terms with the randomness (luck) of life and accept that there is no universal truth as to the road towards success. With that in mind, you should position yourself so that you maximize your opportunities and be ready to take advantage of serendipity.

And how can education be harmfull in this regard? As long as you do not become narrow minded, there's only an upside to study.
Old 16th August 2007
  #26
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
Cool question. I am myself musically trained (went to college for music, spent my whole life taking lessons). I am always practicing, and can't spend a day not improving in some fashion.

For me, I have little respect for formal training at this point. Talent and hard work are both way more important than knowing the german altered chords, etc. I know a lot of people who spent a lot of time at conservatory, and can't learn a song or play anything as interesting as my girlfriend who has been playing bass for 2 years.

The great jazz/pop musicians of the past didn't need formal training. They had the love and the drive to figure it out on their own, and made some of the best music ever.

I myself am happy I was trained, because I met a lot of inspiring people, and it opened my eyes to a lot of influences I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

I think listeners can tell the difference, but for some reason A+R people can't. Why? Because they aren't listeners anymore.
Old 16th August 2007
  #27
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I think people who are talented can only improve with a little education. People who suck would suck either way. Maybe they can learn the notes/techniques, but they'll never do more than regurgitate what they were taught.
Old 16th August 2007
  #28
The knowledge of music theory and some serious years of instrument lessons (not just on one instrument but a variety so you have a wide scope of education) is of the utmost importance. Couple that with logic skills (not the software, actually thinking in a logical fashion), computer/tech skills, and of course a passion for music (and great ears) and you've got the makings a audio engineer.

The problem I see is not that we have a lot of people "doing it themselves" but it's that those same people are hearing from all these software companies that it's "so easy to make great music if you just buy our product". If you are a competent engineer, great gear will definitely aid in the process and you'll achieve a better end result. If you have no knowledge and think filling a room with tons of high end gear will all of a sudden make things sound great and get you a Grammy, you are sorely mistaken.

It all goes back to the old adage that says:

"You can put a great engineer in a mediocre room and you'll get a great product. Alternatively, you can put a crappy engineer in a multi-million dollar state of the art facility and you'll still end up with crap"
Old 16th August 2007
  #29
Here for the gear
 

Going to school, networking and learning the basics in a constructive environment are all very helpful, however I don't remember seeing a program that featured course work on developing a strong work ethic.

It doesn't matter if you go to a 4-yr college, a 2-yr certificate program or the local studio to learn the basics. You either have the moxie and talent to make it or you don't.


Samara

Class of '98
Berklee College of Music
Music Production and Engineering
Music Business and Management
Old 16th August 2007
  #30
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

What I was asking about....

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
just to refocus things a bit, i don't think bruce was asking whether education is a good thing, or a helpful thing, or where it fits in the schema of art/soul/creativity. if i'm reading him correctly, he wants to know why it's so common in our biz to see open hostility and strong negative sentiments against the very notion of being trained or educated.

that's a very different inquiry imo, and has nothing to do with education and everything to do with human interpersonal dynamics: ego, insecurity, competition, and jealousy are the traits that come to mind.

to be fair, i have personally experienced a roughly equal amount of the same sorts of animosity coming from the 'educated' and directed at the 'illiterati.' spend a day recording a group of classical players, chat with them about popular music and musicians, see what kinds of attitudes you encounter.

bruce, i would also note that you not-so-subtly equate training with being 'totally involved.' while i don't disagree with that, i would also say that *most* musicians i know are totally involved, in the sense that the amount of dedication, time, and energy they put into their art is impressive, often bordering on obsession. but culture is a funny bird; when a lover is obsessed we call him a stalker, when a musician is obsessed we call him passionate.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Gregoire....

Yes, what truly offends me is why it's so common in our biz to see open hostility and strong negative sentiments against the very notion of being trained or educated.........

Bruce
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