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Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 18th September 2007
  #241
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henryrobinett's Avatar
LOL! I also said I think speech (oratory) can be art as well! We also agree there.

I hope you're having a better day soon!
Old 19th September 2007
  #242
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pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
LOL! I keep thinking we're cool and then all of a sudden we're not cool all over again. Man.
i use to think i was cool:(
Old 19th September 2007
  #243
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You'll always be cool!
Old 19th September 2007
  #244
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u b k's Avatar
 

appropos of the original post, and for whatever it's worth, today i took my first classical guitar lesson, and have just begun the undertaking of learning to read music.

i can only hope this does not cause me a loss of respect with those in the industry. because if someone does disrespect me for knowing how to read music, i'll do the civilized thing and jam my foot up his ass.

as for who or what is an artist, i can say that in my estimation dictionaries can be handy for clarifying usage, but they are not something i turn to for delineating concepts. things like 'art', or 'porn', have a way of being simultaneously obvious and incredibly hard to pin down.

we've all referred to the occasional act or joke as 'cheesy', and we all know what that means... but i defy anyone to define 'cheesy' without using similarly nebulous and arbitrarily appropriated labels like 'lame' or 'corny.'


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 19th September 2007
  #245
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James R.'s Avatar
 

Hi Pegleg,



Gosh if the old geezers have no respect for the new guys, then definitely the new guys will have no respect for a moderately old geezer like me.
Since probably< important word) most of the modern engineers have grown up with computers, it stands to reason they can probably put together and maintain their own computer rigs. (I'm assuming<Oh God) If this is so, then I'm in deep DOODOO. I can run my rig but am in no way trained (self or otherwise) to tamper with the dam things. I have a trained tech for that.
I designed and built my studio, but I came to late in life into the computer world. Sometimes I wish I could rate the lab coat with the additional computer techno weenie gold trim.
I'm starting to feel like Rodney Dangerfield here.
Have a great day.



James R.
Avian Studios
(we're for the birds)
Old 19th September 2007
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
as for who or what is an artist, i can say that in my estimation dictionaries can be handy for clarifying usage, but they are not something i turn to for delineating concepts. things like 'art', or 'porn', have a way of being simultaneously obvious and incredibly hard to pin down.

we've all referred to the occasional act or joke as 'cheesy', and we all know what that means... but i defy anyone to define 'cheesy' without using similarly nebulous and arbitrarily appropriated labels like 'lame' or 'corny.'


gregoire
del
ubk
.
I don't know. I think dictoinaries are the most underrated books ever. They're amazing to me. Sure definitions go out of date. That's why there are slang dictionaries, hopelessly outdated within weeks.

But a good dictionary DOES provide the exact concept. That's what a word is, a concept. Most often we have a misunderstanding of a word. In it's use, we alter it to mean something else and then there's a slight or major MISunderstanding, which makes communication difficult, at best.

The other thing I love about them is their derivations. I like to know where the word came from and briefly what it meant originally. For example the word impediment. It comes from the word IMpede, of course, meaning to hinder, get in the way of. Origionally it was Old English and prior Latin which meant Im-(stop) Ped (foot). This concept was to stop slaves from running by shackling them or otherwise crippling them by their feet.

cheesy adjective informal those cheesy jokes of hers | what a cheesy tie he's wearing tacky, cheap, tawdry; trite; informal corny, cornball.


corny |?kôrn?| adjective ( cornier , corniest ) informal trite, banal, or mawkishly sentimental : it sounds corny, but as soon as I saw her I knew she was the one. DERIVATIVES cornily |?kôrnl-?| adverb corniness noun ORIGIN 1930s: from an earlier sense [rustic, appealing to country folk.]

Thesaurus
corny adjective informal most of our outdoors play was inspired by those corny TV westerns banal, trite, hackneyed, commonplace, clichéd, predictable, hoary, stereotyped, platitudinous, tired, stale, overworked, overused, well-worn; mawkish, sentimental, cloying, syrupy, sugary, saccharine; informal cheesy, schmaltzy, mushy, sloppy, cutesy, soppy, cornball, hokey.
Old 20th September 2007
  #247
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
There can be great SKILL, as in def #4 in my above definitions. In THAT sense, yes, there can be an art to it. But we've been discussing the other definitions of art. And no, in terms of a creative, aesthetic enterprise that creates WORKS fit for some kind of exchange; that communicates to an audience, large or small, like dance, music, literature, painting, poetry, etc. No, a marketing guy, no matter HOW skillful, deft, brilliant with strategy, like an army general, is not an artist. He's a phenomenal craftsman. A brilliant strategist. But not an ARTIST, in the sense of creative imagination producing works for aesthetic consumption.



Don't think so, unless there's an audience there and he/she's singing and dancing.

Reconstruction or improving, making younger, taking away wrinkles or trying to carve beauty? No, not art. But who knows? Maybe someone HAS come along that just creates what he wants to out of a face. I see him doing a job for a client who wants to improve his or her looks.

Mostly no, but could be. Architects definitely have artistic potential. Many like Frank Lloyd Wright defnintely are.

I'm not familiar with his work, but I assume it's art/artistic since they're "art Installations."
There is an audience in surgery.

Is a dancer an artist? Or can a dance be an artist within the medium of dance?

If you're saying that someone is only an artist if they make a tangible object, than you're fairly consistent within your position. However a musician isn't an artist becuase they don't make anything you can touch. Musicians don't make CDs, they devlive what they've made via CD, and they don't make a tangable work.

Dan Flavin does light sculptures (my term) he makes objects out of colored lights. I don't rememebr my exact point, but he had two basic ideas, and turned them in eight pieces through mathematical combingation of the two ideas.
Old 20th September 2007
  #248
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
You know, of course per definition I would not consider MLK an artist, but he certainly could be. The artistic WORK, the canvas would be, perhaps, mankind. I think oratory, particularly an old form long winded oratory that has long since vansihed, was arguably a form of art.

I can see how the word "cheapen" might have set you off. I didn't mean to be offensive. I just think there are different types and qualities of communiation. And I think art is, generally, a different quality of communication which lies in a different field altogether from businessmen and garbage collectors.
I don't get how you can say that and deny eveyone else's examples that are along those lines.

How can mankind be a canvas and any of the other things listed not?
Old 20th September 2007
  #249
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
It's not MY definitions. It's THE definition. I spend a lot of time looking up to understand the definition of words so I'll know what I'm reading and know what I'm talking about. It's not MY narrow definition of ART; it THE narrow definition of art. I didn't invent the word. I didn't use MY own speciliazed definition for it. I looked it up. You don't see, in the dictionary, after they define the word and give examples of art so the reader will understand, them giving examples such as "heart surgeon." No they give examples such as dance, music, painting, literature. That's art. Not "shoe repair." But CAN a shoe repairman have artistic vision and sensibility? You betcha. He can paint it all kinds of colors and glue sprinkles on it. But REPAIRING a shoe is a craft, not an art, excepting def #4. Even if he took a badly damaged shoe and used unbelieveable skill.

I'm not putting people down when I say they aren't artists. Not everyone has to be an artist and being an artist isn't necesssarily a noble and fantastic thing. I could be insulting someone by calling them an artist. Artists certainly don't make a lot of money, for the overwhelmingly most part, and are not generally regarded highly in society. So I don't know where this thing is coming from, this idea that I'm insulting a garbage collector because I don't call him an artist.

OTOH I DO think many people are artistic. I think many conversations are artistic. Certainly creative. I've known people I consider artists, who've never considered themselves as such. My wife makes these fantastic desserts. They are artistic creations. She's also a marketing director for a publishing company (I do know something of the subject). She has crazy skills in that area. Has 35 people under her leadership. She's not an artist there though. She's an executive.
It's your interpretation of the definition. Are you claiming that the list is limited to the examples that they provide? Are you say is not a list of example, but the definitelve list that's not missing a single thing?
Old 20th September 2007
  #250
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilTDeal View Post
Getting back to the original thread's question, I personally have very mixed emotions on this topic. My time attending a School of music gave me the ability to communicate musically and it forced me to focus on honing my craft. But when it came to singing, there was a homogenized vision of what a "voice" should sound like. It broke my heart to hear a friend's sultry silky alto forcibly molded into an operatic contralto that sounded like a barking cow!

I came to believe that the system was very effective at getting mediocre singers to meet the standard "voice" concept but at the expense of the truly talented. I know that this is not what all schools of music are about but since with many Jazz still remains the bastard son, I doubt my experience was at all unique.
In my experience people aren't forced, they choose to let themselves be molded.
Old 20th September 2007
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
There is an audience in surgery.
Oh my god. Please.

I
Quote:
s a dancer an artist? Or can a dance be an artist within the medium of dance?
Of course a dancer is an artist. When did I ever indicate otherwise?

Quote:
If you're saying that someone is only an artist if they make a tangible object, than you're fairly consistent within your position. However a musician isn't an artist becuase they don't make anything you can touch. Musicians don't make CDs, they devlive what they've made via CD, and they don't make a tangable work.
I don't know that I ever said that an artist can only produce "tangible" works. I have to think about that. I certainly didn't say it. But music? Of course it's tangible, if by tangible you include perceptive by beyond touch. But tangible means perceptive by touch, so I guess I don't believe that. And I never said it.

Sound waves are certainly perceptible and that is what musicians manipulate, sound and the perception of time.

I don't know why this is even a question.

Quote:
Dan Flavin does light sculptures (my term) he makes objects out of colored lights. I don't rememebr my exact point, but he had two basic ideas, and turned them in eight pieces through mathematical combingation of the two ideas.
Cool. Sounds like art to me.

I am consistent with my views.
Old 20th September 2007
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
I don't get how you can say that and deny eveyone else's examples that are along those lines.

How can mankind be a canvas and any of the other things listed not?
How CAN a heart surgeon be an artist? You show me where any examples indicate a heart surgeon or a garbage collector is an artist. And show me HOW they are being artistic. I explained how I could INTERPRET MLK as being artistic. I indicated it as a stretch but I could see that. ORATORY, is what I said. Oratory is a person getting up on a stage or the like, and giving a speech to capture the imagination, the spirit, uplift, inspire, through telling stories, metaphors, some true, some false. It's art or could be. I don't see a heart surgeon doing anything like that.

But you can be right man. If this is all about you being right, it's OK. I don't HAVE to be right man. You know. I don't know what to tell you. I look a word up. I study a word, my WHOLE life, not unlike you. I've dedicated my life to the study of art, as many in my family have, professionally and some famously so, I'm sure just like you. You have your ideas and I have mine. I looked mine up in dictionaries and tomes and studied the subject and teach it as well. Doesn't make me right. You too can be right about this. I don't care. But the word means something specific. It's NOT WHAT I SAY BECAUSE I SAY IT. I look at that word and have studied that word and you're telling me it means sometihng different. That's OK. Be right.

Be my guest.
Old 20th September 2007
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
It's your interpretation of the definition. Are you claiming that the list is limited to the examples that they provide? Are you say is not a list of example, but the definitelve list that's not missing a single thing?
Do you use dictionaies? Would you please look the word up in some dictionaies? You're saying they just didn't list heart surgeon? Art - dance, music, literature, poetry, sculpture, painting, film, short stories, novels, mime, choregraphy, screenwriter, . . . What do you not understand??
Old 20th September 2007
  #254
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NeilTDeal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
In my experience people aren't forced, they choose to let themselves be molded.
Fair enough. I am wrong to wash her hands. She was a participant in the process. I guess what I am really protesting is her voice coach's inability to hear the beauty of the instrument she had and instead focus on a cookie cutter sound that to my ear has become so trite as to be truly unpleasant to listen to.

I remember a voice coach showing me how to expand my range by covering my tone. I was at first quite impressed with the fact that I could easily hit a B using this technique. The technique lost much of its luster when I listened to myself and realized that while I could indeed hit the B no one would ever want to hear me sing it. I sounded like Dudley Doright.

I think my cousin Kate had a much better experience at U-Mas. Her incredible talent was mostly nurtured there and she is now enjoying well deserved success. I never had the talent that Kate has but I was strongly discouraged from focusing on the music that most inspired me and as I have now come to understand my voice is most suited. I still call upon my "Schooled" voice as a joke or to drive my nephew crazy but otherwise that portion of my formal training is un-useful to me.
Old 20th September 2007
  #255
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I don't know. I think dictoinaries are the most underrated books ever. They're amazing to me.

mr. robinett, i believe you would *truly* enjoy this clip. i can't say i ever expected 'cutting edge' and 'lexicographer' to cohabitate in the same body, but here she is nonetheless.

TED | Talks | Erin McKean: Redefining the dictionary (video)

btw, 'cohabitate' is not in most dictionaries .

be well!


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 20th September 2007
  #256
Gear Maniac
 

apologize in advance for not reading the whole thread

i feel that what encourages rebellious or a desire to shun formal education, especially in music, has to do more with the people, mindset and ciriculum involved in a formal education.

can't speak for europe, but definitely the u.s. pompous, wooly-headed egomaniac out of touch ivory tower professors, ultra geek student peers, all this for the low price of a small house.

for classical music, sure it is the way, and a lot of the kids who choose to go this way are already buying into the "frasier crane" mindset.

hemmingway did not go to college. bill gates dropped out.

education does not determine intelligence. it can help, but sometimes the "in the box" modern education could actually hurt a free thinking or creating individual.
Old 20th September 2007
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
These individual examples may be entertaining, or good examples of why you choose your formal education / educators carefully, however;

to assume that formal training has this impact on everyone (or even a majority) who experiences it is akin to assuming that every self-trained musician will be a genius...




ie - both assumptions are complete crap.
I assumed neither. I only spoke to my personal experience with A school of music. You made the assumption.
Old 20th September 2007
  #258
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vernier's Avatar
There's much to learn from everywhere though ..I got it from playing coffee houses and in college from Dr. Stout. It's all good.
Old 20th September 2007
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
mr. robinett, i believe you would *truly* enjoy this clip. i can't say i ever expected 'cutting edge' and 'lexicographer' to cohabitate in the same body, but here she is nonetheless.

TED | Talks | Erin McKean: Redefining the dictionary (video)

btw, 'cohabitate' is not in most dictionaries .

be well!


gregoire
del
ubk
.
I haven't seen the entire thing, yet. And I'm sure you meant this as a hostile barb. But I too don't think dictionaries as policing tools, telling people what you can say and what you can't. And language is a growing thing, creative, especialy in the technologcal and black culture. But I find the sources and meaning of words fascinating. Like her, I like to plumb the depths to understand a word. If I'm studying something relatively serious, written by someone who really knows and understands language, I get so much more out of it by knowing exactly what the author meant.

But mostly I find alarmingly, how much people, MYSELF INCLUDED (that's what started me on my word journey) have gross misunderstandings of many, many, many words, making us kind of an illiterate culture. It's not just that we invent new meanings for words. I really have no problem with that. I "invent" words all the time and find new meanings for them often, but that we don't understand the words we use.
Old 20th September 2007
  #260
In other words, it depends on what the definition of the word "is" is.

Thanks, Bill!

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 20th September 2007
  #261
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"Is" is a state of being. Third person singular, present tense of BE. Past tense form of the word is "WAS". heh
Old 20th September 2007
  #262
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EliasGwinn's Avatar
 

My own thoughts, for what its worth...

I think people don't respect formal training for several different reasons. Ego is certainly one reason. But another reason is bad experiences.

That is, after a few bad experiences with a formally trained musician/engineer, it can create a bias against ALL OF THEM. Of course this is not fair, but it isn't surprising.

I try to withhold judgment of talent until I witness the talent (or lack thereof).

When I was going to college, I knew I wanted to be a producer/engineer/session musician. However, I realized I would be very limited if I didn't have a clear and thorough understanding of the equipment I would be using. I knew that electronic theory would be a lot more difficult to learn on my own.

I got my degree in electrical engineering because I figured I could learn music and studio through experience. I figured, if I was going to pay someone to teach me something, it may as well be the thing that is most difficult to learn on my own.

While at school, I had some friends who were music majors, and I tried to absorb as much information from them as possible. I didn't have any lack of respect for them (although it was slightly eerie to meet a MFA musician who couldn't improvise at all).

I took a few courses on music theory, a few on electronic composition, history of electro-acoustic music, etc. (Thank you Mark Ballora, wherever you are!!)

I will still read books on music theory and hash-out jazz charts from time to time because they are great learning tools. I'd love to take one or two more courses on music theory someday.

My boss/mentor at Benchmark (John Siau) has taught me more about audio electronics (both micro/macro and theory/practical) and how it applies in the studio then anything I've ever done in my life, including working in the studio. But, working in the studio gives me the 'sandbox' to apply that knowledge and actually hear the results.

Benchmark by day, Subcat Studios by night....years after college, and my education has never felt so accelerated!!
Old 21st September 2007
  #263
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
And I'm sure you meant this as a hostile barb.

not in the least, i can't imagine getting hostile in a chat about dictionaries. i just like turning people on to ted.com, i think it's an extraordinary example of the power of the web for creating and sharing seriously constructive dialog.

i keep re-reading my post trying to see what you're picking up as hostile, and i'm at a loss.


gregoire
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ubk
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Old 21st September 2007
  #264
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No! It's all good. There wasn't anything IN THERE that was hostile. But you know sometimes hostility can be passive aggressive, meaning it's hidden. So I was just wondering whether yo were thinking, "Here's a really lame, geeky, stupid thing I bet THIS guy would really think was cool!"

No it was realy cool. I liked-ed it. Thanks.
Old 21st September 2007
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
No! It's all good. There wasn't anything IN THERE that was hostile. But you know sometimes hostility can be passive aggressive, meaning it's hidden. So I was just wondering whether yo were thinking, "Here's a really lame, geeky, stupid thing I bet THIS guy would really think was cool!"

No it was realy cool. I liked-ed it. Thanks.
You mean it can sometimes be assumed when it's not there.heh


LOL So if he was thinking "Here's a really lame, geeky, stupid thing I bet THIS guy would really think was cool", he'd be right?
Old 21st September 2007
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
You mean it can sometimes be assumed when it's not there.heh


LOL So if he was thinking "Here's a really lame, geeky, stupid thing I bet THIS guy would really think was cool", he'd be right?
No, I don't think so. Lame, maybe. Geeky I'm not, contrary to forum appearances. I'm not an intellectual. I don't browse through dictionaries. I use them when I'm not sure of the meaning or am curious about the origins of words. It's HOW I learned to study.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #267
Gear Head
 

This is my take on it.

You can have no natural talent but have a music degree and still be horrible.

You can have tons of natural talent and no music degree and be amazing

What happens if you have tons of talent and have a music degree. Well your probably a bad ass.

Theres nothing wrong with knowing your instrument well. It only helps. Some people who arent very good get good by learning their instrument. Its makes them more confident. Some it doesnt help.

Ive seen guys who werent great guitar players go to music school and come out very good in a short amount of time. It kick starts hidden talent. Others dont get better at all because they just dont hear it.

Myself. I think I had some natural talent but to be decent took a lot of work. I still dont consider myself a virtuoso but I can hang with most situations pretty comfortably. Music school helped me more then I could have ever imagined. Took me awhile to learn how to apply it though.

I still think you can be good without music school for sure. But it helps when you have a good understanding of your instrument. It makes things easier. And it helps you constantly learn.

But theres something to be said on both sides of the arguement. And both sides are right in a lot of ways.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #268
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Soultrane......

The thing about this thread that I think is really important is that fact that "It is all important."

In other words.... Education isn't worth a poop if it doesn't focus a WELL-TRAINED, self-disciplned talent....

By the same token... Talent isn't worth a poop(And can get quickly obscured) if it doesn't focus a good education...

Bruce
You can't get very far at all without talent. But you can get a lot farther with a good education and the discipline that Bruce mentions.

More than 30 years ago I was the chief audio engineer for a television network and I had a great assistant who since became a great audio engineer in his own right. He did not learn well from the abstract, when I tried to teach him what a threshold and ratio were on a compressor or from a book he could not grasp it. But he learned very well from hands-on practice, guidance from me and learning how to be a critical listener. Hands-on was his way of learning. Couple that with his excellent discipline, hard work, and good ears and he became an excellent audio engineer. Not everyone learns well by reading books, but we all must find our own way of learning enough about how the gear operates to get better product.

Those of us who can apply the abstract concepts that we read in books to our experiences in the real world are potentially at an advantage. It helps us to get there faster. But there are many of us who have to learn hands-on, and for those, it pays to have a good teacher who does understand the technical concepts so as to point out for the first time, what controls can cause distortion. Then you try it yourself and listen and say, "oh I see, this control can cause distortion". Since my assistant did not understand well the concepts of fast and slow release time, I demonstrated them to him by playing material through the compressor. There are many ways of learning.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #269
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
mr. robinett, i believe you would *truly* enjoy this clip. i can't say i ever expected 'cutting edge' and 'lexicographer' to cohabitate in the same body, but here she is nonetheless.

TED | Talks | Erin McKean: Redefining the dictionary (video)

btw, 'cohabitate' is not in most dictionaries .

be well!


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Dear Gregoire: Thanks for that great link to Ted!
Old 22nd September 2007
  #270
Mastering
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
In the classical domain, I'd go so far as to say it's necessary to have formal training. Certainly, you'd have a pretty damn hard time playing with any symphony without a good school on your resume. You have to have a comprehensive ability to read music and understand the technical skills to an extent that seems unlikely in the 'self-taught' domain. I can't say I've worked with any classical players without formal training - usually at one of the 'usual suspect' schools (Berklee...)



Yes!
The key is to have an open-minded teacher who can help set free the inner talent of the nascent artist. I have a lot of respect for formal training, especially in the classical music field, but it can f*ck up an artist for life. I know a jazz musician who spent a year a Berkeley and left because he felt it was limiting his horizons and he became a great artist. I know another musician who went through the entire Berkeley training and he also became a great artist. Yet a third musician was stunted by the Berkeley training and he never reached his potential.

What we need are free-form classes that help to assess and enhance a student's creativity during the learning process, expose him/her to a wide variety of thoughts so they can eventually make their own decisions.

I wonder sometimes if I became a political liberal because I come from a line of Jewish intellectuals and because my parents were democrats or because I really thought about it myself independently and came to the conclusion myself. The degree of influence that our friends and mentors have on our religious and political and musical lives is tremendous. The social structure around us tends to mold us as well. I think I need to take a good course in sociology, I'm raising more questions than I have answers to!

Well, at least my wife and I disagree on Hillary versus Barack. So I am independent to some extent!
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