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Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 19th August 2007
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
I would absolutely love to regain my respect for the educational system here in the US. I believe in education, and think it's importance is paramount in the pursuit of both professional and personal growth. That being said, (and I'm referring to trade and technical schools not musical education) 90% of the students that are coming out of these engineering and sound reinforcement programs, have learned next to nothing. It's absolutely shocking that one can come away with so little knowledge after a good time of "so called" education. The engineering schools IMHO are a complete joke. The knowledge that my interns receive in 1 week far exceeds what they could or would ever receive from these programs which are in my opinion shams and disgraces.
That being said, a formal education at a reputable university is priceless.
A friend of mine is in a 4 year program at NYU. The clive davis school of recording i believe. This is the best audio training i have seen from the way it is described. One of the things that impressed me is that they actually teach you how to listen like an engineer needs to and not just how to operate equipment.

I think alot of the 9 month /year type schools give you a good general idea but give you nothing as far as being able to actually engineer. Not to say that those are not viable routes to go. Many including myself have started out in places as such.
Old 19th August 2007
  #122
Gear Head
 

Very interesting topic.
For me music/production was my refuge from being bullied at school.
Technically i have no technical expertise, but everyday i stayed away from school i would spend time in front of the monitor/keyboard.

So i guess my opinion is, if it sounds good does it matter if that person has received training or is self taught?

For me i just consider it a great leveller, if you can do so and so's job without the training so and so has then go for it.

baybud
Old 19th August 2007
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post

I know plenty of people with lots of natural ability who never had the drive, dedication or discipline to go anywhere with with. You can be born a genius, and without drive it will get you precisely nowhere.
Unfortunately that happens far too often. Its such a shame too. so much talent is just sitting around wasting time.

-steve
Old 19th August 2007
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
"it doesn't take great playing or even great sound to make a great album" -Kim Gordon
Old 19th August 2007
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Chav View Post
A friend of mine is in a 4 year program at NYU. The clive davis school of recording i believe. This is the best audio training i have seen from the way it is described. One of the things that impressed me is that they actually teach you how to listen like an engineer needs to and not just how to operate equipment.

I think alot of the 9 month /year type schools give you a good general idea but give you nothing as far as being able to actually engineer. Not to say that those are not viable routes to go. Many including myself have started out in places as such.
That is encouraging .
Old 19th August 2007
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
It's too bad that this thread ended up being mostly an example of what Bruce was talking about rather than a discussion of why it's so. I think there's actually a reason why many people feel hostility towards those with credentials.

Many of us think we're imposters. Even very successful people often feel they don't really deserve their success. If you don't feel confident in your abilities, or don't feel safe in your current job, you're bound to feel a bit threatened by someone with credentials you don't have. So it's very tempting to find a reason to tell yourself (and others) that somebody's technical degree, conservatory degree, or whatever is worthless or even a handicap.

Personally, I don't believe that good training and additional knowledge ever hurt anyone. The real question is, what knowledge is most important for a professional recording engineer? And how can a prospective engineer best acquire that knowledge?

I think most of us could make a pretty good list. Here's mine (no particular order):
  • Technical knowledge
  • Analog signal flow and gain structure
  • Digital Signal Processing
  • Electronic bench skills
  • Programming
  • Acoustics
  • Musical skills
  • Ear training
  • Music theory
  • Music history
  • Keyboard proficiency
  • Training on primary instrument
  • Business skills
  • Accounting
  • Advertising
  • Written and oral communication
  • Project management
  • Understand daily operation of recording studio
  • People skills
  • Interpersonal communication
  • Empathy
  • Networking
  • Practical skills/experience
  • Several ways to mic (insert any instrument) and what they sound like
  • Ability to notice and identify a wide variety of audio defects
  • Ability to imagine and create a wide variety of audio defects
  • Facility with various kinds of production/recording software
  • Ability to make decent coffee

It's a huge list, isn't it? Can you imagine any single degree program that could teach all these things? Teach them well? So it's no wonder that many kids come out of their chosen degree program without everything it takes to succeed. We've all met (or been) technical people who couldn't make small talk or locate the bridge, conservatory musicians who didn't understand how to get gigs or panicked without sheet music, A&R people with MBA's who could read a spreadsheet but not a chart, and the list goes on.

So I have to agree that there's no particular academic credential that's a recipe for success. How could it be, when every success has a different recipe? But it doesn't follow that all academic training is useless, only that a formal degree better not be the only thing a would-be engineer has on the resume. In fact, there will surely be times when that degree is best kept as an engineer's own personal secret.

Ultimately, the best thing one can learn from any course of instruction is how to keep on learning.

David L. Rick
Excellent Post David.

I have only skimmed through the topic but I'd like to ask what constitutes "formal training"?

I'd say that it's possible to have all of the above and not be successful in the music biz. There is a certain degree of blessing/curse that goes with being successful in this biz (I won't get too spiritual, but I believe there are spiritual factors involved).

With that said, I think music theory should be a required course or at least an elective in highschool/junior highschool.

I think if more people understood the basic mechanics of music they would gain a life long appreciation for what musicians do.

I think a working understanding of music and a bit of formal study is a necessity, but for me this doesn't involve a degree program. It depends on what level you need to understand at. Music is first a science and it should be approached as such to me. But if you compare music theory to biology, one doesn't need a 4 year degree in Biology to have a basic understanding. That understanding is gained from a study of the sciences throughout childhood. And while some will choose to obtain a 4 year degree, others will choose graduate and post graduate studies.

If we draw a parrallel to the business world (another science), a 4 year degree affords you less specialization than a MBA does. (An MBA also affords you a higher income) But for those that choose to study post graduate, income levels fall off and the gains of a PhD. are primarily for personal gain (Much like the equivalent understanding of music is).

I think anyone with a chosen vocation that is worth his/her salt will desire to know everything that they can about that line of work. As someone in the music business, I can't fathom not wanting to obtain formal training of the science of music (For me formal training can be done outside of the halls of academia. The main lesson learned in college is not the course material, but rather the process of learning. I think college teaches you HOW to learn if you actually put the necessary time in. For me these lessons carry on throughout life, but for someone who puts in the same amount of time/drive the education gained is just as rewarding and is equivalent to a study in the halls of academia.)

Why be in the music business and not know the science and language of music? I say thumbsup to formal training.
Old 19th August 2007
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
I think we're working off the "college program" assumption (at least, I have been)...




Here, here! I would add - how about "music appreciation" along with it?
How about this curriculum instead of marching band

The Curriculum at Louis "Satchmo" Armstrong Jazz Camp

(Note this is for 10-20 year olds. I wish I would have had a program like this as a 10 year old instead of honor band and jazz band camps.).
Old 19th August 2007
  #128
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
Here, here! I would add - how about "music appreciation" along with it?
I went to LaGuardia HS of the Arts here in Lincoln Center / NYC.

For me, math classes were the "appreciation" classes -

as the bulk of my schooling was music.

(probably why I suck at business heh )

btw - anyone need any free music beds?? heh


.
Old 19th August 2007
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)

B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.

I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????

I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.

What do YOU THINK????

Bruce Swedien
The respect vs disrespect of what has gone before I'd say is an internal argument in all great musicians and engineers. I think one of the reasons that music isn't in a golden age at the moment is that creatively too many people want to sound the same and technically have similar ways of doing things. It's that balance of learning musical theory, studying the greats from Beethoven to Charlie Parker to Led Zepellin and gaining technical knowledge etc with an ego-driven but playful desire to make your original mark. There are obviously other cultural and social factors responsible but I do think that the balance has somehow gotten lost. Not enough studying and too many people trying to sound like their favourite bands... and succeeding!
Old 19th August 2007
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Here's my "Take" on this situation. I LOVE WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING... I guess many people don't love what they do....

I expected more from this group of folks. I expected more of you to defend what we do for a living and how we got there, in a kind and intelligent manner...

I hoped that a discussion like this could help open some of the educators eyes and ears....

I didn't expect this....

Bruce Swedien
Well Bruce, you've got such high standards !...
Old 19th August 2007
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinmusic View Post
There are obviously other cultural and social factors responsible but I do think that the balance has somehow gotten lost. Not enough studying and too many people trying to sound like their favourite bands... and succeeding!
I agree - and to me, it's just one more evidence of the decline of our civilization...

Olivier.
Old 19th August 2007
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
This Thread is not nearly as INTERESTING as I had hoped it would be... i didn't anticipate all the nasty comments.

It's mainly nasty and not very nice....

I was hoping for something else.... Sorry I brought it up.... Never again...

Bruce
Bruce,

I'm surprised that you're shocked at the way this turned out. This has always been a very divided topic and folks have strong opinions. I've skipped around on this thread and not read every one, but I think the lack of respect is definitely coming from both sides. The elitism from the folks with training and the "street smart" attitude of the folks that don't have the training. There is no right or wrong.

I was lying in bed last night, not sleeping and thinking about this silly thread. I came up with a chef analogy. Someone that grows up cooking and working in restaurants that learns the ropes as they go. Does that make them better or worse that someone that decides they want to go to culinary school and does that with no real world experience outside of school? You can't answer this until you sit down and eat a meal that each created. Maybe they're both good. Maybe not. The means to get there were different, but the outcome could be the same....which is simply a good meal. Why can't we look at this topic the same way. Whether you're talking about musicians or engineers, it should be the music that does the talking. If you're making good music, that should garner the respect needed.

later,

m
Old 19th August 2007
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
I was lying in bed last night, not sleeping and thinking about this silly thread. I came up with a chef analogy. Someone that grows up cooking and working in restaurants that learns the ropes as they go. Does that make them better or worse that someone that decides they want to go to culinary school and does that with no real world experience outside of school? You can't answer this until you sit down and eat a meal that each created. Maybe they're both good. Maybe not. The means to get there were different, but the outcome could be the same....which is simply a good meal. Why can't we look at this topic the same way. Whether you're talking about musicians or engineers, it should be the music that does the talking. If you're making good music, that should garner the respect needed.
Yes.

To be honest, I'm not even 100% sure what is being discussed here. ANY good musician or engineer, no matter what style he choses, will have put in thousands of hours of studying and trial-and-error. It might be Eric Clapton learning every blues lick there is while sitting in John Mayall's basement for 2 years - deep study that doesn't involve written music or theory. Or it might be say Bill Frisell studying at Berklee and learning advanced theory.

In both cases, we're talking about educated musicians. At least, that's the way I see it. Only that different styles demand different methods. Naturally reading and writing music and theory will help you be more versatile and I'm all for it.

It's sad that people still think of not-academically trained musicians as 'idiot savants' at best. If you look at somebody like Bob Dylan you have somebody who deeply immersed himself in the study of folk music, language and history and created an incredible body of work. It wasn't just divine inspiration, actually I think itz was pretty little of it but rather hard work and steely determination.

Another aspect with contemporary music is that a lot of the new innovations like sampling, beats and 'audio-design' are not related to classic music theory. But the most interesting music these days is made by such people. It's easy to spot a demise in quality and standards here but it's always been that way. I guess rock and roll was considered to be too primitive and simple when it first evolved.
Old 19th August 2007
  #134
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<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">ether way if you have drive and ambition
if you don't go to school,
with enough passion possibly you can find a new way , but this takes a special person

I do believe some form of school can help
but I also believe its the people that have been semi starved of
education that thrive due to human instincts
a perfect balance

I honestly believe the reason That I'm hear know is because I had all my gear in storage for two year's
not a single day out of those two years did I not freak out and worry about that gear

that energy is burned into the mind and stays with me for some time
</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Old 19th August 2007
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
I respect study but I do not respect institutions.

Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker are just three of my favourite musicians who studied but didn't go to school to do it.
Most of my favourite musicians did it this way.

I'm not against all music played by people who went to a university- I like anything that is great and love anything that is amazing regardless of where it came from.
Miles actually studied at Juilliard when he first came to New York. Coltrane had formal training at a music school in Philadelphia. Neither of them graduated as far as I know. I think I understand what you're trying to say though. And I agree with you.

I think we're all lucky that the likes of Bessie Smith, Lonnie Johnson, Blind Blake, Louis Armstrong, Lester Young, Robert Johnson, Charlie Christian, Charlie Parker, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan and many other exponents from the golden age of Great American Music (the list goes on and on) didn't receive any (or very little) formal musical schooling.

I don't think these outstanding artists, who all had very individual and extremely influential styles, would have come up with what they did had they been exposed to formal training. They were trained right on the bandstand playing with their mentors. A whole other ballgame and much more fruitful it seems, judging from the gradual decline in creativity and originality we've witnessed in this type of music since.
Old 19th August 2007
  #136
.

also, the effectiveness of the "formal training"
depends very much on the style and facility of the:

**school vision, environment, culture & history
**teachers / professors ability, vision & experience
**curriculum wealth & diversity
**administration & staff
**local area, including the burrito place around the corner
**prohibitive, or non-prohibitive cost of the school

**zeitgeist

**potantial opportunities in the wild, wide world of post graduation

**and, ultimately, the individual attending students

etc.

these are quite a few factors that can either work together,
work somewhat, or not work at all to instill appropriate "formal training".

often, the determination might be clearer in hindsight

.
Old 19th August 2007
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gregoire....

Yes, what truly offends me is why it's so common in our biz to see open hostility and strong negative sentiments against the very notion of being trained or educated.........

Bruce
I work full time in a different field than you and I can say that what you are describing is common there also. It was also true in my earlier career ventures.

I think that it comes down to ego and feeling secure about who you are. People feel threatened by those who may be "smarter ,better looking etc".
Old 19th August 2007
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.

A-Why?(Explain)
Jealousy, resentment and the like are ALL the result of low self-esteem.

Berklee grad here. I've learned over the years to not even bring up my formal education with others in the trade. I don't hide it... I just don't bring it up. It's simply too much of a threat towards those who lack self-confidence in their own abilities to have learned a skill on their own.

Sad but true.

Those of you who train in the martial arts know exactly how this works and why you generally don't tell people about your training. Same reason.

But I didnt' go to Berklee so I could flash around a piece of paper so no big deal. I'm happy to let my "formally-educated" work speak for itself.

Old 19th August 2007
  #139
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Jealousy, resentment and anger are ALL the result of low self-esteem.

Slutzies All.....

I guess what really pissed me off is the fact that both sides of this issue seem to be very close minded. And nasty on top of all that close minded dog-doo.

I am a very lucky guy. I have worked with the best musicians that the industry has to offer. AND I STILL AM!!!!! They are, for the most part, all well trained and very gifted. NOT ONE OF THEM WAS NASTY!!!! They are all excellent musicians.....

Jealousy, resentment and anger are ALL the result of low self-esteem. I see far too much of that in evidence here. We should do something about that.

Bruce Swedien
Old 19th August 2007
  #140
.

I agree.

You have a uniquely positive perspective, which is wonderful,
and has helped contribute to your success, I'm sure.

And, as a result, your success contributes to your positivity. And so on.


So what should we do, Bruce?

BBQ?

.
Old 19th August 2007
  #141
Gear Maniac
 

Bruce,

You are a very wise man.
An amazing way to alter the course of this discussion.

I can see that you are probably very good at social relations in the studio aswell as your wonderful sounds.

"WE should do something about that"

Do you by any chance have any formal training in pedagogics?


all the best,
Jim.
Old 19th August 2007
  #142
Gear Head
 

Great thread, and some great responses. I've been a long-time lurker of these boards, and I decided to start posting a bit, ask questions, throw some opinions in, etc.

I moved to Boston a little more than 2 years ago, to attend Berklee, and at the time I thought it was the end-all-be-all school to go to for engineering. I was frustrated my 1st and 2nd semester, because I didn't get to take any engineering classes, so I emailed and called countless studios and got myself an internship at one of them.

That was probably the best decision I've made so far in my music career, and over the next 2 years of working at this studio, and working my way up the ranks, I gave Berklee less and less credit for my achievements as an engineer. It's not that I didn't learn anything, but I was eager to jump into a studio and learn, and so far, Berklee has taught me very little that I didn't already learn in the studio.

On the other hand, I've been a drummer for about 15 years, and going through school and being in all the bands I could be in while growing up, I didn't really learn music theory, or how to play piano, etc. Berklee DID teach me that stuff, and while I'm not an expert at any of it, I can definitely say, I've become a better MUSICIAN because of my education, not necessarily a better engineer (although I'm sure that knowledge has helped me in the studio on some level).

Regardless, I was in a situation where I had to choose to stay at school, and finish a degree at Berklee, or drop out and move to LA, where I am lucky enough to have plenty of opportunities available.

After going back and forth for a while, I finally decided to stay at this school, because as many of you have said, more education can not hurt.

Then, I look at all the professional and successful engineers that I look up to, and most of them had no formal training, and got to where they are by dedication, perseverance, and moving their way up the ranks of studios. But I'm sure a lot of those guys would say they wish they were better at something, whether it be music theory, electrical engineering, composition, sight reading, etc, and that something is probably something they would've learned in college.

Just my 2 cents

Peace,

- Angelo
Old 19th August 2007
  #143
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Anyone here read or heard much about Malcolm Gladwell? He's got some cool theories about becoming an expert at basically anything. In his book The Tipping Point and in lectures, he has some great discussion points that I think fit here.

Gladwell makes two good points in his talk:

1. persistence and collaboration might be more important personal traits than lone genius in a complex and changing world; and
2. a person needs to invest 10,000 hours of concentrated and reflective practice to achieve mastery—this amounts to about 10 years.


...google away for more info on him....


m
Old 19th August 2007
  #144
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Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
I agree - and to me, it's just one more evidence of the decline of our civilization...

Olivier.
Yep our civilization is in constant decline. There used to be slaves, and crusades, and concentration camps. But now not everyone learns music.
Old 19th August 2007
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
Yes.

To be honest, I'm not even 100% sure what is being discussed here. ANY good musician or engineer, no matter what style he choses, will have put in thousands of hours of studying and trial-and-error. It might be Eric Clapton learning every blues lick there is while sitting in John Mayall's basement for 2 years - deep study that doesn't involve written music or theory. Or it might be say Bill Frisell studying at Berklee and learning advanced theory.

In both cases, we're talking about educated musicians. At least, that's the way I see it. Only that different styles demand different methods. Naturally reading and writing music and theory will help you be more versatile and I'm all for it.

It's sad that people still think of not-academically trained musicians as 'idiot savants' at best. If you look at somebody like Bob Dylan you have somebody who deeply immersed himself in the study of folk music, language and history and created an incredible body of work. It wasn't just divine inspiration, actually I think itz was pretty little of it but rather hard work and steely determination.

Another aspect with contemporary music is that a lot of the new innovations like sampling, beats and 'audio-design' are not related to classic music theory. But the most interesting music these days is made by such people. It's easy to spot a demise in quality and standards here but it's always been that way. I guess rock and roll was considered to be too primitive and simple when it first evolved.
I fully agree. And, in my mind I'd say you went to "school" no matter which path you took. Musicianship doesn't come without puttting in the work. I respect anyone who has put in that work. My disrespect is for those who bull**** their way through avoiding learning as if it will throw off their mojo.

I think "Formal" training can be obtained in informal ways (IF that makes any sense). As long as you put in the work, you earn the result.

I vaguely remember a quote where a woman approached a pianist after a performance and said "God I wish I could play like you do. You play so beautifully".

The Pianist replied "You can play like me, or better. All I did was practice 2-3 hours a day for the last 20 years. If you do this, you'll probably be better than I am."

Very few are gifted. The rest simply became great by EARNING it via work.
I hate people that expect something for nothing. Music feeds me so I feed it. I learn all I can about any and every aspect of this music entity that I can.

Besides if I hear one more "beat maker/lazy producer" play me a track with parts that are in 3 different keys, I'll lose my mind.

Few Are gifted. Greatness is EARNED.
Old 19th August 2007
  #146
Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
In all honesty - if all Gearslutz were spending their time in the studio working with Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones, Duke Ellington and Count Basie - I'm sure we all would have a much more positive outlook. I'm know that the most successful musicians don't spend a lot of time complaining about their educated/non-educated peers. I would say that the vast majority of successful musicians I work with have more positivity than the majority of the less successful; and I have personally watched attitudes change AS specific musicians and engineers have become more successful...

It's easy, IMO, when you're still looking for big success - to sometimes fall into negative attitudes. Perhaps you're a struggling 'self-taught' musician, and you see a 'trained musician' pass you on the way up. Instantly - you start complaining about formally trained musicians; "they have no soul, no improv skills, they're just machines"... Or vice-versa "that guy can't even read music!"

As an engineer; same thing. If you're a hard working engineer making records for years, suddenly some kid comes along (out of the local audio program) and tracks a big major label record - ouch!

Of course, these things don't even have to actually happen; just the threat of someone succeeding faster or more than you is enough to instill jealousy and negativity. We also tend to dislike things that don't work the way we think they should - and we're all inclined to think the way we learned ourselves is the best way to learn.

A question for Bruce:

I wonder - and I'm not being facetious at all here - when was the last time you worked with a genuinely "bad" group; out of key, off time, complete cliche - no originality, trying to be just like their "heroes", crap instruments ($400 drum kit, Squier guitars), and, of course, little budget. ? (I'm not expecting you to name names... )

If you're unlucky enough to work on 3 or 4 of those in a row (which luckily I haven't done for years ), it's easy to get some negative energy happening.
Very well said.

I also think that many really talented artists and creative people understand suffering,
from either direct personal experience (EVERYONE suffers sometimes),
or because sometimes we can empathize with others who are suffering,
or some tragic event that's occured - to simply deny that these things exist,
is not to live in reality, especially when we've been directly effected in some way.

And suffering, and the understnding of suffering, can bring about some of the most BEAUTIFUL
and PASSIONATE and, in some cases, SOCIALLY IMPORTANT creations in the art world.

Of course, the same can be said for happy and celebratory music, obviously!!

Likewise, to ONLY focus on suffering constantly is just destructive.

I think it's important to recognize the difference between unecessary destructive negativity,
and real sadness and tragedy, etc. Again, same goes for positivity - when it's only a lot of hot air.

These are things I struggle with sometimes.


I also don't think it's exactly fair to call all of the posts here nasty - that would not be realistic, IMO.

.
Old 19th August 2007
  #147
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Quote:
just the threat of someone succeeding faster or more than you is enough to instill jealousy and negativity.
Which in turn is part of something even bigger ; FEAR , the fear of failing , we all have an image in our heads of what we would like to achieve , failure to achieve that in the appointed time and seeing someone else who may not of worked as hard as ourselves achieve things faster than us brings forth negative thoughts .
Old 19th August 2007
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
Yep our civilization is in constant decline. There used to be slaves, and crusades, and concentration camps. But now not everyone learns music.
Are you pretending that slavery, religious conflicts and concentration camps no longer exist ?...
Old 19th August 2007
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
Are you pretending that slavery, religious conflicts and concentration camps no longer exist ?...
Good point (not to hijack). One only has to look to places like Africa where there is currently mass genocide,slavery,and concentraion camps. The numbers are absolutely staggering (much larger than the genocide associated with **** Germany), and no one is stopping it. The awareness level in the US is alarmingly low.

Sorry for the blurb...Please continue.
Old 19th August 2007
  #150
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Quote:
Yep our civilization is in constant decline. There used to be slaves, and crusades, and concentration camps. But now not everyone learns music.
the last time i checked, there are still slaves, crusades, and concentration camps in this world

...or at least a modern-day equivalent of each!

and i'm sure that plenty of people learned to play music in the "ancient world" as well, be it a picollo or deer-skin drum
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