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Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 18th August 2007
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
anyhoo im not familiar with Chuck Ainley, Bill Botrell, Emily Lazar are they engineers?
Nevermind.
Old 18th August 2007
  #92
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How about this guy?

The following is quoted from another thread on this subject:

"The tone of this thread bothers me, and I don't like it.

Mainly it bothers me because traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training. I see that in profusion in this thread.

Personaly, I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training. Firstly because I identify with totally involved musicians and technicians. And well educated listeners are discriminating listeners.

And they have highly developed critical listening skills. (You will please notice that I said critical listening skills...)

Why are so many of you so intent on pooping all over an education? I don't get it. Maybe that's one reason that there are so many mediocre sounding recordings out there today...

An education, any kind of education, will teach you all about discipline.
I think that discipline helps to create performance....

A heroic talent will never amount to anything if there is no discipline to focus it’s energy. One’s artistic conception, as shown by the performance of the individual in his work, cannot often be appreciated if the individual cannot perform his art when he needs to. I think that discipline gives us the ability to impart knowledge and skill to the task at hand.

Get an education, learn about discipline......

Bruce Swedien"

And this is from a guy who came up under Bill Putnam!
Old 18th August 2007
  #93
.

ok...

first of all, there was a time NOT long ago,

when obtaining a formal degree or education in:

**audio engineering
**scat singing
**songwriting / arranging
**music technology / synthesis, etc.
**rock and pop live performance
**filmscoring

was just not possible.


+engineers used what they HAD in the studio, to make the process WORK
(some of them had ee background / training / formal education).

+musicians (artists, producers, arrangers, songsmiths, instrumentalists, dancers, mimes)
used what they HAD in their training or spirits to make recordings WORK


some of this has changed, and some of it hasn't.


so, just because you have a degree from full sail or harvard does not mean you
CANNOT have a career in ANYTHING....i mean jeeeeeeeeeeeeez...

(of course, there are always the drive, focus, persistence,
networking / social & business skills and luck / timing aspects)


also, there are people with formal educations in one area,
who have successful careers in entirely different areas...


some people have a million degrees and teach gym...

and some people will always be critical and antagonistic, no matter what..


some people are happy clutching a bottle of paint thinner in the gutter - go figure...


most people are just insecure with at least SOME aspect of themselves..


..so whatever it takes...live life, have fun...or be miserable,

(or any combination thereof)....


and "when in doubt, run in circles and scream and shout".....

.
Old 18th August 2007
  #94
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Exactly. The point I want to make is that nobody ever got worse at what they do by learning more about it. If you're a good guitarist, for example, and you spend some time jamming with some guys that are a lot better than you, you'll probably pick up a few things from them and end up a better player as a result, right? School is the same thing, only it's by nature DESIGNED to improve your skills in that area. It's a little more structured, and there's usually some exchange of money involved, but it can't TAKE AWAY something you've already got, like soul or feeling, it can only ADD to your skills. I had been engineering for a few years when I went to school, and although I went in knowing a few things, school cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had that I had picked up from HANGING AROUND "ENGINEERS" WHO WERE ENTIRELY SELF TAUGHT! Sound is a function of physics, which is science. Understanding how that works doesn't instantly render you deaf.

So maybe that guy that works at guitar center that went to full sail and doesn't know sh*t never knew sh*t to begin with, and no amount of school in the world would've helped.

And even though I went to school, I still think Skynyrd kicks ass. So we can all agree on something.
Old 18th August 2007
  #95
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I'm entering into this thread a little late in the game... but here's my two cents.

as a teenager, I shunned formal training. I don't know if it was due to the whole careless attitude that grunge music championed or if it was more due to snobby peers (Jazz-bos).
regardless, I was a little bastard, and in school I got kicked out of Orchestra, Kicked out of Chorus. I spent most of my time focused on my own bands. coming from a small town, the scene was so small that it was like it had a single track attention span for music. it was all ska, or all punk, or all metal... never all at the same time... and while everone was into ska they hated metal etc....
the bands I were in were goofy and fun. Part of the point was fun, the other part was to play music that nobody else was playing. that includes the old fart cover bands in town.
it was all about rejecting that boxed in thinking... and I think that is a valuble skill. but in the end if thats the only skill you have... it is really limiting.

So More and more I am finding that I wish I had a tighter grasp on music theory. I've bought books and taken lessons... but I keep feeling like I'm playing catch up. now I regret getting kicked out of orchestra.... it would make things so much easier If I could write and read music faster. to be able to jump into a structured jam would be fun.

I respect anyone who is formally trained, as much as I respect someone who never was but can really play. but the people I really respect are the people who know their theory but don't rely on it.
Old 18th August 2007
  #96
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Do you know how long the list of non formally educated artists,engineers, and producers would be?
Old 18th August 2007
  #97
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....

Last edited by Killahurts; 18th August 2007 at 11:57 PM.. Reason: Didn't really belong here
Old 18th August 2007
  #98
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big country's Avatar
 

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Gearlutz....

I've always found this subject fascinating.... How do you feel abut the following????

>Formal Music and Technical Training<
_________________________________________________________________

Traditionally, many in our industry have had little respect for formal music or technical training.
formal music training was invented so musicians can communicate
I personally believe a little music training is important
I have taken theory classes more than once and the only good I can see is that it helps Identify sounds and put them in words

but I also notice its one way of doing it and honestly its quite old
and based for the piano and the name theory doesn't hold fact for me

now technical and building skills in the industry gets me like now other
my belief is if you play guitar know how to build a guitar
if people built their own instruments we wouldn't have boats rolling in
of mass produced things . but we would have a ton of different peoples
Ideas on how the guitar should be. smart society thinking.



Quote:
A-Why?(Explain)
you cant explain why, it's leads back to its self
it's perpetual,
2nd to last letter in the alphabet
pro duce er
Quote:
B-I have a lot of respect for formal musical and technical training.
I have allot of respect for people who can communicate to gather in what ever fashion as long as its better than the last
I dig on progression its the only way it can heal
Quote:
I identify with totally involved musicians. Do you????
I doo
there is know other way.
I would want them thinking nothing but music
eating music crapping music
sleeping music
and studying what the consumer does
to form a communication.
music should not be stagnate
but only if they wanted to be great
Quote:
I think that discriminating listeners have highly developed critical listening skills.
absolutely
or they should

Quote:
What do YOU THINK????
my grandfather told me once that baloney was a piece of meat
I agree
he failed to mention it was processed meat
Quote:
Bruce Swedien
Old 18th August 2007
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
What are you?-----some kind of a clown??
Are you?
I myself have a degree in music from UCLA. I was only trying to show that there are two sides to the coin.
Your immature comment was not appreciated .
Old 18th August 2007
  #100
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Wow, those are pretty good lists. And that's only at 2 schools. Nice to see that they include people like Susan Tedeschi, Flea, and B.T., all people whose musical styles are pretty much assumed to eschew ANY formal study.
One interesting thing I've seen is that on the bio's of engineers who I know for a fact have a degree there's no mention of any education. Almost like they're afraid it will hurt their image.
Old 18th August 2007
  #101
Viking
 
Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

This Thread is not nearly as INTERESTING as I had hoped it would be...

This Thread is not nearly as INTERESTING as I had hoped it would be... i didn't anticipate all the nasty comments.

It's mainly nasty and not very nice....

I was hoping for something else.... Sorry I brought it up.... Never again...

Bruce
Old 18th August 2007
  #102
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Bruce, maybe it would help if you'd share some of your own experiences with education and how it's enriched your own life?

Okay, I'm just fishing for stories, but how 'bout it anyway?
Old 18th August 2007
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
This Thread is not nearly as INTERESTING as I had hoped it would be... i didn't anticipate all the nasty comments.

It's mainly nasty and not very nice....

I was hoping for something else.... Sorry I brought it up.... Never again...

Bruce
Its unfortunate that this thread was taken in such a poor direction. It had a lot of potential for some interesting discourse.

I'm all for redirecting it that way.

ahem... would all of those who would like to continue with the arguing and the mean comments please go to the moan zone and start your own thread there?
Old 18th August 2007
  #104
.

well, the thread topic does address a socially negative perception / concept...

so what were you expecting, exactly, Bruce?


why don't you ellaborate....please don't give up.

i don't think the thread is "mostly" negative...why do you say that?

there are certainly some wonderful lists of musicians above -

i did notice that itzhak got credit for violin, and violinist heh

(although, he's great at both, i'll admit).

.

.
Old 18th August 2007
  #105
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I posted some of this before, but I'll post again in hopes of getting us back on track.

when I first started playing, I took guitar lessons. my guitar teacher was not a very good teacher... and was more interested in shoving Black Sabbath and Led Zepplin down my throat than teaching me anything.
I can remember going to lessons and asking him questions about what makes something a chord, and why some notes sound good with oneanother and others do not. what I got was "hey.. next lesson why don't you bring a tape of a song you want to learn?"

from there everything went downhill. I wrote off all the music that teacher tried to slam down my throat... and decided that learning music was for snobs and jerks that play bad metal (like my teacher did)

and I found plenty of other people that felt the same way.

what I should have done is found a different or better teacher. but instead it took me 10 years to realize the value of theory, and formal training.
now I'm taking piano lessons, and playing catch up.

I think an important thing to realize is that there are alot of people in this industry that look down on those who never had formal training. the catch is, that a decent amount of the time, you might not be able to tell the difference. just because someone was not formally trained does not mean that they did not study.

I think you'll find some of the same tendencies in any art field.
the impression that if someone instructs you, that it somehow becomes less yours or somehow compromises your art.

in art schools well over half the freshmen class never graduate.
Old 18th August 2007
  #106
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I expected more of you to defend what we do for a living and how we got there...

Here's my "Take" on this situation. I LOVE WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING... I guess many people don't love what they do....

I expected more from this group of folks. I expected more of you to defend what we do for a living and how we got there, in a kind and intelligent manner...

I hoped that a discussion like this could help open some of the educators eyes and ears....

I didn't expect this....

Bruce Swedien
Old 18th August 2007
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
The following is quoted from another thread on this subject:

An education, any kind of education, will teach you all about discipline.
I think that discipline helps to create performance....
[/B]
I disagree. Someone who needs the structure of acadamia to learn is weak.
Someone who has the drive and dedication to learn something on their own is
if nothing else disciplined. In the field of audio I believe it is 75% natural ability
and 25% drive, dedication and discipline.
Old 19th August 2007
  #108
Gear Head
 

Any education is positive, THIS is the future of education, google, online communities, anonymous avatars.
Anti intellectualism is rampant, partly because the rise of medocity, exclusivity, and overspecialization in the academics.

But mostly because there is too much to know, and learning the fundamentals is often overlooked.

Real progress is slow, be patient with us Bruce.

rj

(still learning the fundamentals...)
Old 19th August 2007
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Swedien View Post
Here's my "Take" on this situation. I LOVE WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING... I guess many people don't love what they do....

I expected more from this group of folks. I expected more of you to defend what we do for a living and how we got there, in a kind and intelligent manner...

I hoped that a discussion like this could help open some of the educators eyes and ears....

I didn't expect this....

Bruce Swedien
i actually am a music teacher;

i have always liked and respected teaching, since i learned that chopin himself considered himself a teacher and took it very seriously.

i taught in a college for a while, and was extremely frustrated by the curriculum.

so, now i am a private music teacher.

i am lucky to have many very talented students. in fact, i would say i have probably one of the best rosters of young students in my city.

i have 6th graders, for instance, who can outplay many of the incoming freshmen at the university.

HOWEVER, despite their talent, i would council almost all of them AGAINST getting a b.a. in music, from any college, juilliard, indiana, or curtis included.

unless their goal is to be a symphonic musician or a music teacher, the safer way, as it seems to me, is for music to be a passion but for some other income avenue to be pursued professionally.

i feel my role is not to make professional musicians, but to make citizens who can make the study of music a lifelong pursuit, which it has been for me, and can be for anyone.

i love being around the music enthusiast much more than the embittered, empoverished, music professional (not saying all professionals are this way, of course.)

in fact, i am reminded of the story of sibelius, who was preparing to give a talk on music to a group of businessmen.

when asked, "why are you addressing businessmen instead of musicians?" sibelius replied, "because businessmen like to talk about music. musicians only want to talk about money."

i love music.

i don't love the music business.

as my stack of "accounts receivable" shows...
Old 19th August 2007
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
I disagree. Someone who needs the structure of acadamia to learn is weak.
Someone who has the drive and dedication to learn something on their own is
if nothing else disciplined. In the field of audio I believe it is 75% natural ability
and 25% drive, dedication and discipline.
does it really have anything to do with being strong or weak? perhaps there are people who respond better to the structure of acadamia and some that simply do better learning on their own. maybe it is a issue of learning styles.

wouldn't you agree that it does take some ammount of drive to enroll in a school and have to be held accountable for your progress? or at the very least some ammount of courage?
is there a difference between a player that is "self taught" that actually did study, and actually did learn theory and discipline, and one that disregards theory but can play by ear?
Old 19th August 2007
  #111
.

Bruce.

I think part of what we're discovering here is the following:

There is a large difference in cultural values regarding both education AND art -
and specifically between people who were raised in more socialist nations,
and people raised here in the US.

As an example, how many people in the EU / Europe are presented with a
$200k-$300k debt at 6%-9% compounding interest at college graduation,
just when they're STARTING their careers?

Another good question is, how many people are even LEARNING music in school
in the United States presently, and how many of the few who ARE will have jobs
when they graduate with this huge amount of debt?

I think, if you are TRULY searching for the answers to your question about
why many people, especially the ones who are not wealthy and connected,
can have negative attitudes towards formal training -
it's BECAUSE FORMAL TRAINING IS EXPENSIVE, and VERY FEW CAN AFFORD IT,
(and the few who can may not have the talent, ambition, skill, luck, or connections in the end
to really take advantage of this education, anyhow).

And meanwhile, we have cultural heroes like Eminem to look up to.
(I'm not slamming, Eminem - I actually like him, as an artist and performer...)

Now because I have many Swedish friends, and my wife is German, and I
went to a German school growing up here in NY, I can see this distinction
in cultural values more clearly.

My Swedish friends have never been ashamed of their education -
they have enjoyed their government's support and cultivation of the Arts,
and benefited tremendously as a result of what, in this country, can only be
considered PRIVILEGE.

I believe herein lies much of your answer.

You may see this as negative, but in this country, as far as the masses go,
it is REALITY.

I know this is high end, so I apologize if my comments are inappropriate here.

(My father was not best friends with the dean of admissions at Harvard,
or head of the Stern School, or head of Guitar Performance at Berklee,
or Snr VP of Marketing at Disney or GM - he is a moderately successful chiropractor,
with hobbies that include painting, composition, and playing piano - a wonderful man,
and I love him very much, and I'm glad he is who he is. It's my MOTHER who's
the electrical engineer and used to work at Bell Labs on early microchips -
she built our first stereo!! - and I love her very much, too).

Bruce, you have to understand that growing up with all this capitalism
shoved down our throats, and very little support of the Arts by the government,
and school, and all this huge personal responsibility to afford incredibly expensive
education, it's not easy to have a great attitude about "formal training" for many.


Fortunately, my life has been a bit more of a balance of both formal and informal,
(although, I haven't yet had the success in music that I always dreamed about)
so I'm more open to both sides, and I do see them very much as being
potentially mutually beneficial, especially in better case scenarios.

Thanks for starting this thread, by the way.


Cheers.

Joseph L. Briggs.


(by the way, the quote below may be a bit negative - it's Frank Zappa -
who, although often cynical, was also pragmatic and extremely productive / prolific,
as well as a huge musical and personal inspiration to me - I didn't actually know him).


.
Old 19th August 2007
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
Do you know how long the list of non formally educated artists,engineers, and producers would be?
But, would they still be on a list of successful folks if they did have some formal training? Are you saying that it would have ruined their natural born ability? ...if you believe in the natural ability to begin with...

I think that's the argument that most of the non-trained folks use, that the training would ruin their ability and make them follow the rules so much that they couldn't possibly do anything new or exciting, or break the rules. If they don't know the rules now, how do they know they're breaking them?

True, not everyone needs training to be a great whatever, but does it curtail creativity for those that get it?

m
Old 19th August 2007
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
But, would they still be on a list of successful folks if they did have some formal training? Are you saying that it would have ruined their natural born ability? ...if you believe in the natural ability to begin with...

I think that's the argument that most of the non-trained folks use, that the training would ruin their ability and make them follow the rules so much that they couldn't possibly do anything new or exciting, or break the rules. If they don't know the rules now, how do they know they're breaking them?

True, not everyone needs training to be a great whatever, but does it curtail creativity for those that get it?

m
I'm a huge supporter of education. I do believe however that it's not where you've been, but where you are that matters. If a person chooses to seek out knowledge outside of a traditional school that certainly shouldn't be held against them. Every person should be judged upon their own merrit. Wisdom and knowledge can come from a variety of places.

Anyways...I don't think this is the purpose of the thread. I believe Bruce wanted to discuss an apperent anamosity against those who are educated. Where it comes from, what it means, and possible resolutions .
Old 19th August 2007
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetatkinsdiet View Post
True, not everyone needs training to be a great whatever, but does it curtail creativity for those that get it?

m
Yes,no,maybe so

There is no definitive way of knowing for sure. My guess would be that education would only enhance ones talent . However I have met engineers who felt that there is a certain level of purity in the mindset of musicians who haven't been taught about rules, and the right and wrongs of musical theory.
Old 19th August 2007
  #115
It's too bad that this thread ended up being mostly an example of what Bruce was talking about rather than a discussion of why it's so. I think there's actually a reason why many people feel hostility towards those with credentials.

Many of us think we're imposters. Even very successful people often feel they don't really deserve their success. If you don't feel confident in your abilities, or don't feel safe in your current job, you're bound to feel a bit threatened by someone with credentials you don't have. So it's very tempting to find a reason to tell yourself (and others) that somebody's technical degree, conservatory degree, or whatever is worthless or even a handicap.

Personally, I don't believe that good training and additional knowledge ever hurt anyone. The real question is, what knowledge is most important for a professional recording engineer? And how can a prospective engineer best acquire that knowledge?

I think most of us could make a pretty good list. Here's mine (no particular order):
  • Technical knowledge
  • Analog signal flow and gain structure
  • Digital Signal Processing
  • Electronic bench skills
  • Programming
  • Acoustics
  • Musical skills
  • Ear training
  • Music theory
  • Music history
  • Keyboard proficiency
  • Training on primary instrument
  • Business skills
  • Accounting
  • Advertising
  • Written and oral communication
  • Project management
  • Understand daily operation of recording studio
  • People skills
  • Interpersonal communication
  • Empathy
  • Networking
  • Practical skills/experience
  • Several ways to mic (insert any instrument) and what they sound like
  • Ability to notice and identify a wide variety of audio defects
  • Ability to imagine and create a wide variety of audio defects
  • Facility with various kinds of production/recording software
  • Ability to make decent coffee

It's a huge list, isn't it? Can you imagine any single degree program that could teach all these things? Teach them well? So it's no wonder that many kids come out of their chosen degree program without everything it takes to succeed. We've all met (or been) technical people who couldn't make small talk or locate the bridge, conservatory musicians who didn't understand how to get gigs or panicked without sheet music, A&R people with MBA's who could read a spreadsheet but not a chart, and the list goes on.

So I have to agree that there's no particular academic credential that's a recipe for success. How could it be, when every success has a different recipe? But it doesn't follow that all academic training is useless, only that a formal degree better not be the only thing a would-be engineer has on the resume. In fact, there will surely be times when that degree is best kept as an engineer's own personal secret.

Ultimately, the best thing one can learn from any course of instruction is how to keep on learning.

David L. Rick
Old 19th August 2007
  #116
.

great post, DLR.

.
Old 19th August 2007
  #117
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people don't get musical training anymore, BECAUSE THEY DON'T TEACH IT IN SCHOOLS!!!

the music program at my school was cut when i was in 1st grade. around the time i was 9-10, i wanted to learn to play the sax - however, i was raised by a single parent, who could afford neither the instrument nor the lessons.

then i moved just before high school to an area that still had music education. i tried to join the school band, but guess what? in order to get into one of the band classes, even as freshman, you had to audition for your spot...because, guess what? they still taught music at the elementary and middle school levels.

since i couldn't play an instrument, or read music, i got tossed to the way-side for the kids that could. the only thing left for me was to take the guitar class...which was fine, because i was teaching myself to play guitar already anyways. however, the band director, who taught the class, was always too busy composing stuff for the REAL band, and would just give us a bunch of guitar tabs, and have us learn them.

as a result, i knew nothing but guitar tablature for almost 10 years. then i started taking classes in college on music theory and such...but the problem is, by the time you get to that point, the people who have been privileged enough to be taught music since they were 5 or 6 are so far ahead of the game that people like me lose confidence and give up. how am i going to compete against someone who has been reading music for 15 years?

long story short: i can't read music that well, and know little about theory, but i know by intuition what does and doesn't sound good; i know when someone sings or plays something out of key, even if i don't know what key they're in. i can tune a guitar to nearly perfect pitch without the use of a tuner, and i'm comfortable with that....so **** the people who wouldn't bother teaching me, and **** the people who cut off funding for music education.
Old 19th August 2007
  #118
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<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" width="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">
Quote:
soultrane
i taught in a college for a while, and was extremely frustrated by the curriculum
.


</TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>college doesn't have a curriculum
the Strong educators just get payed allot more
seniority is bull****
Old 19th August 2007
  #119
Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
?

The only people I've ever met that had formal training all worked
in the pro audio section at gc

All the great enginneers Ive met never went to school
yeah, they all had formal training in classes that were just one student.

You're lying to yourself if you really believe their great engineering skills came solely through independent discovery.
Old 19th August 2007
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
It's too bad that this thread ended up being mostly an example of what Bruce was talking about rather than a discussion of why it's so. I think there's actually a reason why many people feel hostility towards those with credentials.

Many of us think we're imposters. Even very successful people often feel they don't really deserve their success. If you don't feel confident in your abilities, or don't feel safe in your current job, you're bound to feel a bit threatened by someone with credentials you don't have. So it's very tempting to find a reason to tell yourself (and others) that somebody's technical degree, conservatory degree, or whatever is worthless or even a handicap.

Personally, I don't believe that good training and additional knowledge ever hurt anyone. The real question is, what knowledge is most important for a professional recording engineer? And how can a prospective engineer best acquire that knowledge?

I think most of us could make a pretty good list. Here's mine (no particular order):
  • Technical knowledge
  • Analog signal flow and gain structure
  • Digital Signal Processing
  • Electronic bench skills
  • Programming
  • Acoustics
  • Musical skills
  • Ear training
  • Music theory
  • Music history
  • Keyboard proficiency
  • Training on primary instrument
  • Business skills
  • Accounting
  • Advertising
  • Written and oral communication
  • Project management
  • Understand daily operation of recording studio
  • People skills
  • Interpersonal communication
  • Empathy
  • Networking
  • Practical skills/experience
  • Several ways to mic (insert any instrument) and what they sound like
  • Ability to notice and identify a wide variety of audio defects
  • Ability to imagine and create a wide variety of audio defects
  • Facility with various kinds of production/recording software
  • Ability to make decent coffee

It's a huge list, isn't it? Can you imagine any single degree program that could teach all these things? Teach them well? So it's no wonder that many kids come out of their chosen degree program without everything it takes to succeed. We've all met (or been) technical people who couldn't make small talk or locate the bridge, conservatory musicians who didn't understand how to get gigs or panicked without sheet music, A&R people with MBA's who could read a spreadsheet but not a chart, and the list goes on.

So I have to agree that there's no particular academic credential that's a recipe for success. How could it be, when every success has a different recipe? But it doesn't follow that all academic training is useless, only that a formal degree better not be the only thing a would-be engineer has on the resume. In fact, there will surely be times when that degree is best kept as an engineer's own personal secret.

Ultimately, the best thing one can learn from any course of instruction is how to keep on learning.

David L. Rick

That was a very thought out post David. very insightful.

I think I can boil my own issues down to feeling insecure or deficient about my abilities in many of those catagories you listed. when it comes down to it, It really doesn't matter where or how one improves themselves as long as they are doing it, and making progress. I find that I turn to teachers for somethings, I find i turn to friends for others. heck... sometimes I even come to Gearslutz for help!

I've expeirenced the insecurity even more so with my electrical engineering... I certainly feel very intimidated by people with big degrees and all that.. and I always seem to pull out my "experience" working in the field and their lack of as a sheild.

anyway... well done David. I'm going to get back to figuring out how to make good coffee.... seems so simple, maybe I should start a thread about it.
-Steve
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