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Lack of respect in our industry for formal music or technical traininng.... Dynamics Plugins
Old 17th August 2007
  #61
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen View Post
I believe the value of a learned lesson has dropped too near nothing in value for some people, a lot of younger people these days (not all) just don't know how to learn.
I'm sorry, but you can't generalize like that. Sure, you would think kids don't know how to learn given what you see on tv and hear on the radio, but I assure you you are totally wrong. I have teenage friends who would give everyone's musicianship on this board a run for their money. Anyone who has the drive will figure out how to learn.

The thing to note about talent of this generation vs previous is that it is for sure as strong as ever, but the industry is not interested in talent. Its not cost effective.

UBK is totally right about the education thing. People in the music industry are also very threatened by schooled musicians, and form their own prejudices to make themselves feel comfortable and valuable. But it goes both ways for sure.
Old 17th August 2007
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane View Post

i imagine a talent like mozart, if he/she exists today, would wash out of most music schools in the country in the first semester.
But the time that Mozart lived in was very different. Was he aware of traditional african music, indian music, or improvisational music without VERY strict guidlines? THere were only really a few ways to make music in that time in Europe. Say what you will, but the difference between Mozart and Haydn isn't as wide as the difference between the Beatles and the Beach Boys. The classical composers of that time were using the same kind of harmony and rules, because it was basically law.

If Mozart went to a creative arts school nowadays he would find tons of kids with a completely different take on improvisation, with influences from music all over the world. He might be more talented than all of them, but he'd have a few hundred years more of music to absorb. He would siphen it all down to what he wanted to do with music, but he wouldn't be the only one who was right. He didn't really get that luxury back then.
Old 17th August 2007
  #63
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people with formal training work at guitar center
Old 17th August 2007
  #64
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Plush's Avatar
I've run across plenty of people who scoff at applying oneself in education, training for a craft and who seem to have a contempt or suspicion about higher education.

I've not been swayed by them.

Instead I consider them to be ignorant.

That's not a crime because they too could learn if they wanted to learn.
Old 18th August 2007
  #65
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For what it's worth, I think that music performance training around the world is generally pretty good. Students spend lots of time with their teachers, in the practice room, and in group settings.

However, I think that our engineering training is generally lousy. First, there should be two tracks: recording/mixing on one hand and technical maintenance/design on the other. It's gotten past the point of complexity where we can hope to educate students well in both disciplines.

Second, most current recording/mixing education is way too theoretical. The whole classroom/lecture approach should be thrown out the window in favor of an apprentice system. If you want to learn to be an instrument luthier, you spend most of your days working with the materials under the light supervision of a master. If you want to become a piano tuner, it's the same deal: you tune and restore pianos day after day under the tutelage of a master.

That doesn't happen in modern engineering schools. A friend who went to one told me about spending a week hearing lectures on microphone selection while having no lab time of his own to mic up any instruments. What's the sense of that?

In summary, I think a lot of us who disparage education aren't against education per se but rather are rightfully skeptical of the output of the current system.

We need systematic change!
Old 18th August 2007
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDingo View Post
Ignorant people tent to act as if ignorance was a virtue. People who are not ignorant recognize it for what it is.
Ignorant people tend to act as if ignorance were a virtue.

When writing about ignorance, it's best not to be ignorant about writing.



I'm just goofin' on you, man.

That is the proper grammatical correction though.

You make a good point, in any case.



So, anybody catch the "Bratz" movie. Great cinematography.
Old 18th August 2007
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
You're making a blanket statement based on one (hearsay) experience?
I wish that this were based on only one experience! No, this statement represents many dozens that I've heard from various current and former students through the years.

The latest I actually heard just yesterday: that UCLA Extension wants $1,000 for you to take a semester's course in Logic, with no tracking experience involved whatsoever. Wha?????

Please don't take my comments personally. I'm sure that there are some good programs, possibly yours included. But there are a lot of lousy ones out there, too.
Old 18th August 2007
  #68
.

to the ones who've said talent will rise to the top,

there are also such factors as luck and timing....


there are MANY talented people in the world,

who the world will never discover for a MILLION reasons..


talent is no measure of success.....


and michelangelo might not have been the best painter around,

but he almost certainly was the cheapest.....


sorry for the ot.


..
Old 18th August 2007
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
I taught students who had no motivation, no developed critical listening skills, and made little or no effort to really get what was going on. Yet, if they passed my class and those after it with a "C" (which is only 70% "correct") - then they get a diploma and studios and other engineers judge the program based on them.
Pegleg,
There's the problem with recording programs in a nutshell. I went to a conservatory of music that routinely kicked out half or more of the musicians on my instrument. And they were good players! The recording schools don't separate the wheat from the chaff as they should, which would be for everyone's benefit.

Comparing med schools to recording schools is a bit bogus, in my opinion. You need an excellent MCAT score to get into med school. You only need daddy's money to go to Fool's Sale.

Good discussion, pegleg. No offense meant.thumbsup
Old 18th August 2007
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I tend to think so. I think college educated, when it comes to music -formal education - is not all that important. i tend to agree with those Berklee dudes. I don't necessarily think of that as educated -- especially when it comes to jazz. Maybe it's because I never lasted in school. But I think of myself as educated in music. In fact I now teach music in college, -- without a degree.

I also don't think of Grapelli as untrained in theory.

I think, however, that the general musician public downgrades musical education, in school or not. I think it's sad.
I'm more repley to the quote you quoted, but here's a list of Berklee grads: Dave Delhome, Steve Wolf, Scott Kinsey, Jon Dryden, Chris Cheek, Paula Cole, Chris Parks, Jill Seifers, Donny McCaslin, Kurt Rosenwinkle (I have no idea if he graduated) Andrew Sherman.

Kai Eckhardt is a good example of getting a gig and not graduating.
Old 18th August 2007
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post

process to zen master:

10 years study
10 years practice
10 years forget



.
Too true.

As a Berklee grad, I know first hand how the formal education can be harmful. Life experience has shown me many cases where being naieve (my take on some instances of "ignorance") can be an advantage.

In the end, what I've learned is that harm from education is on an induvidual basis and comes when the indivdual let's it or is unaware.

I agree that the agreesive, blanket, anti-education generalizations are truly ignorant as are the beliefs that a degree means educated and/or knowledgable (I'm htinking about some of the new reocrding scholl grads who post agnrily around here).
Old 18th August 2007
  #72
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

Vocalist with a degree in jazz/classic are "better" (faster, etc) for performing a given score, lets say perfect for musical stuff.

Its hard to do an improvisation for them, i think. I had this situation many times.
Maybe they were too young, maybe in 10 years they will be one step higher and stop thinking.

Another fact is, that i dont like this perfect musical-style voices. But thats just taste...
Old 18th August 2007
  #73
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Can anyone name a single school that provides a quality education in the area of musical engineering? I for one can't. The major universities certainly aren't, and the trade schools and other various music programs are almost laughable.

Formal music training at a reputable university (theory,compostition,etc.)= thumbsup

Engineering program or school = dfegad
Old 18th August 2007
  #74
Gear Maniac
 

I have 6 year jazz performance, composition and music theory education.
Still I work mainly as an engineer.
There is something useful with this knowledge each and every session.
I don't need a sheet to know what chords are played, i can hear which notes the melody consists of. A little knowledge of jazz and classical orchestration does help me help musicians figuring out how to make their arrangements better in a comparatibly short time.

Yet,
None of my engineering colleagues sees this as a big deal at all.
They just don't interact with musicians about these things at all.

I think personally the ability to better an arrangement in a fast and efficient way, instead of tryng to fix a crowded arrangement with EQ and fx is something that puts me ahead of the game.

When my colleagues doesn't see or aknowledge this, it's their problem not mine, because:
The musicians catches the point. And the better the musicians, the more they appreciate an engineer which talks their language.
Old 18th August 2007
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
Also - if you're an accredited school, you can't offer a BA program where it's either "A" or "fail and get out!"... There are grading systems, criteria, "rubrics" - all kinds of scary academia that's necessary.
Another thing to consider is whether the school is able to offer Federal financial aid. To do this the school has to satisfy a RIDICULOUS number of requirements, not the least of which are things like job placement and graduation rate. So yeah, a lot of schools sort of "over-report" their job placement rates by counting ANY INCOME made by a graduate as a "successful placement". Meaning if they refer you to a job at which you work one hour and get fired, it still counts because you were "employed" in the audio industry and reported an income. It sounds ridiculous, but the flip side is that without the federal aid alot of students wouldn't be able to go to school.

On another note, I see a lot of people arguing for 4 year universities, but my college experience was pretty frustrating. Most of these schools are padding their course requirements to keep students in school longer and increase the tuition paid. For example, you may only be required to take "math X" to graduate, but you can't take that class unless you either took "math g" in high school (which most people aren't aware of when they're actually IN high school) or you first take maths H, I, and J. At your expense, of course. You also have to take a lot of courses that have NOTHING to do with your chosen degree. Math I can kind of understand, but history and political science are completely unrelated to audio and music. For the most part most of what I got in these classes (and I took several) was a rehash of what I learned in high school. The "trade" schools on the other hand immerse students in audio without the distractions of unrelated material. For me this approach was a lot more productive.

One thing I DID see at the tech school I attended was that the labs were empty most of the time. It's not like the rooms weren't available for students to spend time in, they just didn't take advantage of them. Then 3 days before a project was due they'd be completely booked. Is it the schools fault the students don't take advantage of the learning opportunities they're offered? Whenever I had free time I'd go up to school without any time booked and I could ALWAYS find an empty studio to fool around in. It's sad, but most people think that the graduation requirements are the same as the requirements for success in the music industry. So they do the bare minimum, learn just enough to be dangerous, and get a job at Guitar Center.
Old 18th August 2007
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
Can anyone name a single school that provides a quality education in the area of musical engineering? I for one can't. The major universities certainly aren't, and the trade schools and other various music programs are almost laughable.

Formal music training at a reputable university (theory,compostition,etc.)= thumbsup

Engineering program or school = dfegad
Of course I can name several schools.

McGill University in Montreal
Indiana University in Bloomington

If you apply yourself, you learn a LOT at those places.
Old 18th August 2007
  #77
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doorknocker's Avatar
The Beatles.

Two 'natural' geniuses, nevertheless schooled by ear in TinPan Alley songs and 50ies rock and roll, team up with a 'trained' producer and arranger. The best of both worlds.
John Lennon never would have written 'I am the Walrus' or 'Strawberry Fields' if he'd been a Berklee alumnus. But George Martin couldn't have written those great arrangements and scores without formal musical training.

The problem these days isn't any lack of education but rather not enough teamwork. Everybody wants to do everything on his own.
Old 18th August 2007
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Of course I can name several schools.

McGill University in Montreal
Indiana University in Bloomington

If you apply yourself, you learn a LOT at those places.
Perhaps the programs you listed are quality and perhaps they aren't. To be quite honost, I don't know (I have no first hand expeirance with them).

I will say this however.I have always thought of education as somewhat of a parrellell to farming. First the ground must be fertile and tilled and prepared for the seed, then the seed must be sown, then the crop must be properly cultivated in order for it to grow. In the due season that seed will have finally turned into a harvest, which can then be gathered.

What I haven't seen (and what I think I should have) from the engineering programs and schools, is the bearing of fruit. From what I've seen, the graduates are not properly equipped with the knowledge that it takes to reap a harvest (or be successful ).

Again, I can olnly speak on what I've seen first hand.
Old 18th August 2007
  #79
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I find that their is definitely a slant against techincally trained people. Actually, I think the biggest issue that people have is against these tech schools because they charge so much money and many see them as rip offs. They use all of the trappings associated with the music industry to rope these people in when in reality it is extremely unlikely that even 5% of those people will be able to support a family with the income dervied from their training.

Sometimes people out of these tech programs have no clue about the realities of their profession/indsutry and walk into a studio with an attitude (some might call it over confidence) thinking they are owed a job. Oddly enough this is a problem that is not particular to the recording industry. I have heard about these exact same issues about people coming out of techincal schools into other techincal jobs/careers.

Many people beleive that a good internship will pay much bigger dividends than $50 g's in student loans. Better yet take that money and experiment and learn yourself. There are clearly some people who have thrived under a 'full sail' type program but I think for the vast majority it is a waste of time and money.

As for schooled musicians I tend not to see this as much of an issue. Most musicians that I know enjoy great music regardless of what training was required to acheive their sound. More often than not I beleive their is respect for a schooled musician who sounds great.

I think the bigger problem that exists is schooled musicians who thumb their noses at untrained/unschooled musicians. This is a far bigger issue as far as I am concerned.
Old 18th August 2007
  #80
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In the end it comes down to results. If you get results nobody cares how you learned to do it. I don't think you have to go to Berklee to be a good musician, but I think some formal training does help. Most people I've met who are entirely self taught seem to be good at one thing, whereas someone with a llittle education is more versatile. Along those lines, I've worked with some engineers who are great in their own studios that fall apart when faced with an unfamiliar piece of gear. Knowing the theory behind how things work allows me to pick things up faster and acclimate to a new studio that much easier. It also helps when things go wrong. 75% of engineering is problem solving. I sometimes work for a label owner who is also an "engineer". He has no formal training whatsoever, and he can sit down with Logic and track, edit mix, whatever. He's pretty useless though when it comes to ProTools, which is the main format at his studio. He calls me all the time with tech questions or to ask how to separate regions, etc. He doesn't know about audio, he knows about Logic. There's a difference. Sometimes knowing WHY something works is just as important as knowing that it DOES work.
Old 18th August 2007
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
The Beatles would have been a shadow of what they became had it not been for the formally trained guidance of Sir George Martin.

'Nuff said.
Didn't that system work great? Four "talented" guys with novel raw ideas that were then crafted, perfected and produced by a highly skilled artist in his own right. No telling how many others with similar educational backgrounds worked in the trenches to help bring those ideas to fruition.

That system made it possible for the Beatles to do what they did best, imho.
Old 18th August 2007
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pegleg View Post
Are we just talking about pop and rock again?
?

The only people I've ever met that had formal training all worked
in the pro audio section at gc

All the great enginneers Ive met never went to school
Old 18th August 2007
  #83
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I find it somewhat amusing.

I'm a "trained" musician, but not formally through a teaching facility. Took a couple of semesters of classical guitar in college, where I was able to be completely turned off by the attitude of arrogance and elitism bred into the music majors from the get-go. Indoctrination if you will.

Now, I get to work professionally doing something I absolutely love, and the majority of them probably aren't.

Hopefully it's changed in 20 years, but it was certainly my experience. I'll respect anyone, should they carry themselves in a respectable manner heh
Old 18th August 2007
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
So they do the bare minimum, learn just enough to be dangerous, and get a job at Guitar Center.
lol

nicely said.
.
Old 18th August 2007
  #85
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Bruce Swedien's Avatar
 

You are absolutely right.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music View Post
I find it somewhat amusing.

I'm a "trained" musician, but not formally through a teaching facility. Took a couple of semesters of classical guitar in college, where I was able to be completely turned off by the attitude of arrogance and elitism bred into the music majors from the get-go. Indoctrination if you will.

Now, I get to work professionally doing something I absolutely love, and the majority of them probably aren't.

Hopefully it's changed in 20 years, but it was certainly my experience. I'll respect anyone, should they carry themselves in a respectable manner heh
You are absolutely right..... I hate the the attitude of arrogance and elitism anywhere....

Bruce Swedien
Old 18th August 2007
  #86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music View Post
I'll respect anyone, should they carry themselves in a respectable manner heh

respectable and respectFUL...


sometimes, we all struggle at least a little bit with BOTH...


ok, i'll speak for myself...and my struggle's been more than a little bit heh

.
Old 18th August 2007
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allencollins View Post
?

The only people I've ever met that had formal training all worked
in the pro audio section at gc

All the great enginneers Ive met never went to school
You must not have met many people. How about Chuck Ainley, Bill Botrell, Emily Lazar? The fact is, it takes a long time to move up the ladder in this business, and 20 years ago audio schools weren't so common. I know tons of great engineers who went to school, and I know tons who didn't. Not everyone has the same opportunities to hang around a studio and learn. Sometimes you need school to get your foot in the door. In Nashville (and I suspect NY and LA as well) you pretty much HAVE to go to get an internship. Most places don't want to take the time to educate you from the ground up anymore, there's just too much to learn. Going to school allows you to accelerate the learning process and learn the basics and theory behind the gear and the physics of sound.

But that's almost beside the point. Your logic is flawed. I know lots of people who have college degrees and are waiting tables. Does that mean that all college graduates work in restaurants?

At least in school I learned how to spell ENGINEER.
Old 18th August 2007
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
You must not have met many people. How about Chuck Ainley, Bill Botrell, Emily Lazar? The fact is, it takes a long time to move up the ladder in this business, and 20 years ago audio schools weren't so common. I know tons of great engineers who went to school, and I know tons who didn't. Not everyone has the same opportunities to hang around a studio and learn. Sometimes you need school to get your foot in the door. In Nashville (and I suspect NY and LA as well) you pretty much HAVE to go to get an internship. Most places don't want to take the time to educate you from the ground up anymore, there's just too much to learn. Going to school allows you to accelerate the learning process and learn the basics and theory behind the gear and the physics of sound.

But that's almost beside the point. Your logic is flawed. I know lots of people who have college degrees and are waiting tables. Does that mean that all college graduates work in restaurants?

At least in school I learned how to spell ENGINEER.

good points.

however, you see, now we're getting into the antagonistic from both sides again....
(the last remark might have been unecessary, but who am i to talk...heh)


also, birds of a feather....maybe allan collins would be less likely

to be haging out with trained musicians, so it would follow suit that

the successful musicians he knows come from a different background? guessing...


and you would be the opposite..


i do agree the logic is flawed....



.
Old 18th August 2007
  #89
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lowfreq33's Avatar
 

I hang out with untrained musicians all the time. I'm usually tuning their vocals and beat detectiving their drums. heh

Really though, I don't knock anyone for being self taught if they can hang as a player. And I don't expect everyone to be able to tell me the notes for all the modes in F# or anything, I just expect them to be able to PLAY! If they can do that I don't care how they got there.
Old 18th August 2007
  #90
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
You must not have met many people. How about Chuck Ainley, Bill Botrell, Emily Lazar? The fact is, it takes a long time to move up the ladder in this business, and 20 years ago audio schools weren't so common. I know tons of great engineers who went to school, and I know tons who didn't. Not everyone has the same opportunities to hang around a studio and learn. Sometimes you need school to get your foot in the door. In Nashville (and I suspect NY and LA as well) you pretty much HAVE to go to get an internship. Most places don't want to take the time to educate you from the ground up anymore, there's just too much to learn. Going to school allows you to accelerate the learning process and learn the basics and theory behind the gear and the physics of sound.

But that's almost beside the point. Your logic is flawed. I know lots of people who have college degrees and are waiting tables. Does that mean that all college graduates work in restaurants?

At least in school I learned how to spell ENGINEER.


Your logic is flawed I know lots of people who have spelled words wrong with college degrees and are waiting tables. Does that mean that all college graduates work in restaurants because they have made spelling mistakes?

anyhoo im not familiar with Chuck Ainley, Bill Botrell, Emily Lazar are they engineers?

Formal training in audio is a waste. get a degree in physics or ee.
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